Xander Bogaerts

[Standing Room]

I'm no more excited about Drew being out than you are SR so cut the crap. When I said a earlier in the week that I expected him to be out for a lot more than a couple of games, instead of just saying you thought otherwise, some of you decided to rip me for my prediction. When you get personal with me for what I predict you're damn right I'm going to revisit the issue and remind you and others of it. I also insist that Stephen Drew has become injury prone lately and stick by that belief. I'm reminded that the Arizona D'Backs called him out and said the same thing about him when he lolly-gagged and refused to play even after the medical staff cleared him completely healed from his ankle injury, and for the record I hope when he does come back he tears up the league. What's aggravating is that when he start to get hot at the plate some setback forces him out. Hell, if he can help the team I will cheer as loud for him as anyone else. Now let's put this to rest.

 

I didn't rip you or say Drew would be back sooner, so I have no skin in the game. But your post makes it sounds like you're really excited that Drew is hurt. If you really think being right about a Red Sox player being hurt trumps all else, then that makes you a pretty s***** fan.

 

Well some of you were telling me that Drew was not going to be out for long......and you and they were wrong!!!!

 

Being right trumps all else and Drew is not going to be in the lineup for he duration of his stint on the DL and maybe not when he gets off it either.

[mvp 78]

Yes, that does appear to be your argument. He's hitting .234 in AAA right now and Brandon Snyder has a .895 OPS in the majors, but you want to call up Bogaerts for psychological reasons.

 

Uh, I DON'T want him called up. He should be at Pawtucket until the roster expands.

[Standing Room]

Uh, I DON'T want him called up. He should be at Pawtucket until the roster expands.

 

Sorry, I confused you with the poster who said this would be the perfect time to call him up.

[mvp 78]

Sorry, I confused you with the poster who said this would be the perfect time to call him up.

 

Figured as much. The lack of avatars makes the conversations harder to follow.

[seabeachfred]

Not excited at all; Drew was really starting to hit when he got hurt. All I was implying is that he would not be back in two or three days as some people said, and the remark about being right trumps all else came as a retort when y our friend User made the crack that my comment was why some like to get on my case. Well I would rather be right and have people on my case than be liked and be wrong. If those people had not attacked me for predicting a longer hiatus for Drew none of this would have happened. I've said it before----if you disagree with me let me know why and try and make me see your point. If you attack me I will attack back.

 

Speaking of a hiatus, I'm going to go on leave from here for the next week or so. Just sitting here typing this is not enough for me to get over what happened last night, and for the record, in my opinion Farrell played F rancoMa last night when he failed to bring in Koji to start the ninth inning. Most know that he is better starting a clean inning than coming in with inherited runners. Apparently, someone who didn't know was Farrell. Alex Wilson? What the eff is he even doing on the team?

[a700hitter]

If you really think being right about a Red Sox player being hurt trumps all else, then that makes you a pretty s***** fan.

OMG Fred, you have been called out as a "s***** fan". I think you should go to your room tonight with no dinner. And please be advised that calling you such is not a rip. I have it on good authority from a guy that has been banned 12 time or thereabouts.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Bogaerts went 2-4 today with a single and another HR. He is now hitting .262/.361/.440. 20 year old SS OPS'ing .801 in AAA. Yes please.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Just to be clear Bogaerts is now hitting .320/.424/.500 w 3 HR in his past 14 games, so he's not exactly slumping like discussed earlier.

 

And just to be clear, I never wanted to call Bogaerts up to straighten out a slump, I just said dont not promote him becuse he was slumping. And the Brandon Snyder comment was to show that players do get called up despite slumping. The Sox could well have called up WMB, who is crushing in AAA, but they used Snyder so that WMB could get fully straightened out. Also, Machado was promoted last year despite a .789 OPS in AA no less.

[BSN07]

OMG Fred, you have been called out as a "s***** fan". I think you should go to your room tonight with no dinner. And please be advised that calling you such is not a rip. I have it on good authority from a guy that has been banned 12 time or thereabouts.

Did you really need to add you .02 here? Fred is capable of handling himself, he doesn't need you to come hold his hand every time someone calls him out for being "too fred like" lol It's just going to start more crap and glut up the thread that has some decent conversations going on at the moment.

 

Just to be clear Bogaerts is now hitting .320/.424/.500 w 3 HR in his past 14 games, so he's not exactly slumping like discussed earlier.

 

And just to be clear, I never wanted to call Bogaerts up to straighten out a slump, I just said dont not promote him becuse he was slumping. And the Brandon Snyder comment was to show that players do get called up despite slumping. The Sox could well have called up WMB, who is crushing in AAA, but they used Snyder so that WMB could get fully straightened out. Also, Machado was promoted last year despite a .789 OPS in AA no less.

 

Bogey seems to take a few weeks to adjust when he bumps up a level. He's going pretty good now. But shouldn't be promoted until September. There are other options before him. Now if he does get promoted I won't be too upset.

[a700hitter]

Did you really need to add you .02 here? Fred is capable of handling himself, he doesn't need you to come hold his hand every time someone calls him out for being "too fred like" lol It's just going to start more crap and glut up the thread that has some decent conversations going on at the moment.

Sure Fred is capable of handling himself, but yes, I did feel compelled. Did you feel compelled to add this^ .02?

[BSN07]

I figured if it was coming from me it would quicken the "moving back towards topic" direction instead of maybe one of the newer posters saying something and have it end up a 3 page s*** tossing contest, which ultimately happens anytime "fred" and "fan" wind up in the same sentence.

[Dojji]

Bogey seems to take a few weeks to adjust when he bumps up a level. He's going pretty good now. But shouldn't be promoted until September. There are other options before him. Now if he does get promoted I won't be too upset.

 

"Bogey" proved he could probably handle big league pitching when he took AA by storm, Under the team's pattern, he's a candidate for callup at any time, whether or not he was performing at AAA. Several times in the last handful of years they've called up a guy who was not producing in AAA or even hadn't played in AAA at all before they debuted in the bigs. Jed Lowrie, Justin Masterson, and Jacoby Ellsbury all approximately fit that profile. If they have a need, and they don't like their AAA depth options, the team is fine with calling up a high end prospect either fresh from AA or newly arrived in AAA, regardless of AAA numbers.

 

Which was all SFF was saying, His lack of performance in AAA was no reason not to give him a well-earned callup unless something was fundamentally wrong -- which it clearly was not.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Dojji

[Standing Room]

"Bogey" proved he could probably handle big league pitching when he took AA by storm

 

Huh?

 

Under the team's pattern, he's a candidate for callup at any time, whether or not he was performing at AAA. Several times in the last handful of years they've called up a guy who was not producing in AAA or even hadn't played in AAA at all before they debuted in the bigs. Jed Lowrie, Justin Masterson, and Jacoby Ellsbury all approximately fit that profile.

 

Ellsbury was hitting .298/.360/.380 over 400+ PA at AAA. Lowrie had an OPS over .800 over 400+ PA at AAA. It doesn't make sense to call up Bogaerts after he had been at AAA for less than 20 games to fill a need for 10 days.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Huh?

 

 

 

Ellsbury was hitting .298/.360/.380 over 400+ PA at AAA. Lowrie had an OPS over .800 over 400+ PA at AAA. It doesn't make sense to call up Bogaerts after he had been at AAA for less than 20 games to fill a need for 10 days.

 

Ben Cherrington just said (about 2 weeks ago) that AAA isn't a place where you prove you're ready to be in the MLB. You do that in AA, and when you're promoted to AAA, you're basically in a warming drawer just waiting for an opportunity. This is what Dojji was talking about when he said that he proved that he was capable of hitting MLB pitchers when he was able to make the adjustment from A+ to AA. That's the biggest step in the minor leagues, and he destroyed AA pitching as a 20 year old. This isn't an inconsistent formula, either. Machado had a .796 OPS in AA when he was called up.

 

A large part of determining whether or not to promote Bogaerts to AAA was to decide whether he could essentially help the big league team right now, and if so, get him to a higher level so that he could see slightly better pitching while being ready for a promotion to Boston. So saying he's not ready for Boston because of limited experience in AAA goes against everything that Cherrington just preached only days ago.

[Dojji]

Huh?

 

 

 

Ellsbury was hitting .298/.360/.380 over 400+ PA at AAA. Lowrie had an OPS over .800 over 400+ PA at AAA. It doesn't make sense to call up Bogaerts after he had been at AAA for less than 20 games to fill a need for 10 days.

 

Lowrie in particular was promoted and debuted briefly at third base to cover for an injury to Lowell, and "demoted" to AAA after. Masterson similar when he started a game against the Angels, but I can't remember who gave way for him. Both took place in 08. Gut says it was probably one of the early efforts to cover Schilling's spot while we still hoped he could get his shoulder into playing condition.

 

In both cases these players have AAA numbers for those years, but they happened after the big league debut.

 

Ellsbury barely had any experience before his first callup on 07 as well if I recall correctly but I'm less sure of this one.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Dojji

[SoxFanForsyth]

Here is the link to the article mentioned regarding Cherrington'a philosophy on AAA.

 

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=bostonred-sox&id=28481

 

Here's what he says/

 

"You know, I've always kind of felt like there's no such thing as a prospect in Triple-A," Cherington said. "Once you get to Triple-A, you're either ready to help the big league team or you're not. And us, we're finding out about the guys at Triple-A now, who's ready and who isn't.

 

"We felt like Xander had done enough in Double-A to warrant a promotion. He spent some time there last year and went back this year and really improved in areas he needed to. He certainly improved in strike zone management this year. He's played a consistent shortstop. We know he's a threat with the bat. We just felt like it was time for him to face Triple-A pitching, guys that do different things.

 

"So he'll get some at bats there, we'll see where we are. Once you get to Triple-A it's sort of an extension of the big league team and you're no longer a prospect. You're either at Triple-A or ready to help us in the big leagues."

[Dojji]

Well I can confirm that Ellsbury debuted in June 30th, stayed up for about a week, and then was called up on August 17 and stuck for good. What I can't confirm because I can't find AAA game logs was how long he spent in AAA before the first promotion. He was promoted early on, but had late April, May and most of June in AAA before the callup. That's about 2 months, so probably stands outside the criteria I set.

 

Lowrie and Masterson still apply.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Dojji

[BSN07]

I'm not saying he doesn't have a chance to get called up soon. He obviously does. But I think right now tho there are a couple options in front of him. They can stick with with Holt and Snyder for the time being. If that doesn't work they can go to WMB if he has shown them what they want to see in AAA. They could also see if the Phillies aren't asking for an arm and a leg for Young. He's a decent short term option if no one too noteworthy is in the package. Maybe Cecchini(sp?), he's a solid prospect but looks to have a possible log jam in front of him at 3B with Iggy showing he may very well be an everyday SS and thus moving Bogey to 3B. Regardless I think there are multiple options right now, the Sox aren't up against it when it comes to 3B yet.

[SoxSport]

Ben Cherrington just said (about 2 weeks ago) that AAA isn't a place where you prove you're ready to be in the MLB. You do that in AA, and when you're promoted to AAA, you're basically in a warming drawer just waiting for an opportunity. This is what Dojji was talking about when he said that he proved that he was capable of hitting MLB pitchers when he was able to make the adjustment from A+ to AA. That's the biggest step in the minor leagues, and he destroyed AA pitching as a 20 year old. This isn't an inconsistent formula, either. Machado had a .796 OPS in AA when he was called up.

 

A large part of determining whether or not to promote Bogaerts to AAA was to decide whether he could essentially help the big league team right now, and if so, get him to a higher level so that he could see slightly better pitching while being ready for a promotion to Boston. So saying he's not ready for Boston because of limited experience in AAA goes against everything that Cherrington just preached only days ago.

 

If money is blocking you, it doesn't make any difference what level you are. Drew is blocking a lot of things on the left side right now. Plus they have better options in the OF with Bradley than the roster with Ells out. The hope is Cherington doesn't sit until it's too late. He seems to be a deliberate kind of guy.

[Standing Room]

Ben Cherrington just said (about 2 weeks ago) that AAA isn't a place where you prove you're ready to be in the MLB. You do that in AA, and when you're promoted to AAA, you're basically in a warming drawer just waiting for an opportunity. This is what Dojji was talking about when he said that he proved that he was capable of hitting MLB pitchers when he was able to make the adjustment from A+ to AA. That's the biggest step in the minor leagues, and he destroyed AA pitching as a 20 year old. This isn't an inconsistent formula, either. Machado had a .796 OPS in AA when he was called up.

 

A large part of determining whether or not to promote Bogaerts to AAA was to decide whether he could essentially help the big league team right now, and if so, get him to a higher level so that he could see slightly better pitching while being ready for a promotion to Boston. So saying he's not ready for Boston because of limited experience in AAA goes against everything that Cherrington just preached only days ago.

 

Yeah, but Dojji didn't say that there was a minor difference between AA and AAA. He said that hitting in AA showed Bogaerts could handle major league pitching. That's completely different. Machado's the exception to the rule, hitting AA pitching doesn't mean someone is ready for the majors.

 

No one said Bogaerts isn't ready for the majors. It doesn't make sense as part of his development though. We'd essentially just be calling him up for the sake of calling him up. He just started working on playing third base at AAA.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Yeah, but Dojji didn't say that there was a minor difference between AA and AAA. He said that hitting in AA showed Bogaerts could handle major league pitching. That's completely different. Machado's the exception to the rule, hitting AA pitching doesn't mean someone is ready for the majors.

 

No one said Bogaerts isn't ready for the majors. It doesn't make sense as part of his development though. We'd essentially just be calling him up for the sake of calling him up. He just started working on playing third base at AAA.

 

What Cherrington said is that you prove that you can adjust to big league pitching by adjusting to and hitting AA pitching. After that, and you're promoted to AAA, in the Red Sox view, you're ready to be a major league player.

 

I don't understand why you're saying 'calling him up just to call him up'. There are a ton of benefits of being around the everyday players, seeing what the big leagues are like, etc that you cannot get in AAA. And I don't think anyone would argue that he is a better option at 3B than Holt or Snyder, so you call him up to be competitive and put the best team on the field.

[Standing Room]

What Cherrington said is that you prove that you can adjust to big league pitching by adjusting to and hitting AA pitching. After that, and you're promoted to AAA, in the Red Sox view, you're ready to be a major league player.

 

I don't understand why you're saying 'calling him up just to call him up'. There are a ton of benefits of being around the everyday players, seeing what the big leagues are like, etc that you cannot get in AAA. And I don't think anyone would argue that he is a better option at 3B than Holt or Snyder, so you call him up to be competitive and put the best team on the field.

 

No he didn't. Do you not understand the difference between him saying AAA has little developmental value and him saying that if you can hit in AA, you can hit in the majors?

 

I don't see why it really matters. It's not like him being called for 10 days or so is going to make any significant change to our production or his development.

[Dojji]

Yeah, but Dojji didn't say that there was a minor difference between AA and AAA. He said that hitting in AA showed Bogaerts could handle major league pitching. That's completely different.

 

It may be different, but my version reflects this franchise's attitude about AA and AAA as repeatedly demonstrated between 2008 and this season. Once you're established in AA the team believes you're in range for a proper callup. That's why Jackie Bradley broke camp with the team as a result of a hot Spring (which everyone knew really didn't mean very much).

 

This team acts like AAA is the big league reserve squad and AA is the last level where you have to prove yourself. I'm convinced Bogaerts satisfied the team's need to understand that he can handle a callup when he cleared AA. Calling him up wouldn't just be to call him up -- not even as much as, say, Bradley was to start the year.

[Standing Room]

I'm convinced Bogaerts satisfied the team's need to understand that he can handle a callup when he cleared AA. Calling him up wouldn't just be to call him up -- not even as much as, say, Bradley was to start the year.

 

I disagree, we don't have a need for a third baseman right now. Snyder's hitting .273 .273 .500. So it doesn't make sense to call up Bogaerts for a few starts when he's just getting his feet wet and learning new positions in AAA.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I gotta say, SR - Dojji is right here. It's not just what the organization has established historically, but also what they publicly say.

 

Regardless, though, Bogaerts isn't here so that's all that matters.

 

It should be noted, though, that he's hitting .327/.431/.491 in his last 16 games. Took him a week or two to get going, but he's posetd a .922 OPS from his 10th AAA game on.

[Rick Ross]

Are there contract issues that rise up if they don't call him up now compared to September? I'd much rather see Bogaerts hit than Snyder or Diaz, it'll definitely put the most competitive team on the field.

[BSN07]

No, it's passed the super two cut off date for this season.

[Standing Room]

I gotta say, SR - Dojji is right here. It's not just what the organization has established historically, but also what they publicly say.

 

Regardless, though, Bogaerts isn't here so that's all that matters.

 

It should be noted, though, that he's hitting .327/.431/.491 in his last 16 games. Took him a week or two to get going, but he's posetd a .922 OPS from his 10th AAA game on.

 

It's not that Bogaerts would be ready for a call up that I took issue with. It was Dojji thinking that adjusting to AA pitching means he's able to adjust to major league pitching. That's not what Cherington said and it's flat out not true.

[SoxSport]

Probably too soon for Bogaerts--but not for Middlebrooks. He should be playing 3B right now. I don't care what he hits. He's needed on the field. Holt isn't a 3rd baseman. He's a SS-2B guy.

[Dojji]

It's not that Bogaerts would be ready for a call up that I took issue with. It was Dojji thinking that adjusting to AA pitching means he's able to adjust to major league pitching. That's not what Cherington said and it's flat out not true.

 

That's not what I said.

 

"Bogey" proved he could probably handle big league pitching when he took AA by storm,

 

It's not that he could adjust to AA. It's that he CRUSHED AA at age 20. You really think that doesn't mean anything at the big league level? Because the Red Sox have demonstrated for about 7 years now that they disagree with you.