The Starting Pitching Free Agency Thread

[a700hitter]

The press in Boston is the added intensity. Other than that, Greinke did pitch well in a large market and he has pitched well in penant races. He's been traded twice and that is a high stress situation. How much more pressure could Dan Shaughnessy add. The Boston press is more annoying than anything else. They are a non-factor to onfield performance.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The press in Boston is the added intensity. Other than that, Greinke did pitch well in a large market and he has pitched well in penant races. He's been traded twice and that is a high stress situation. How much more pressure could Dan Shaughnessy add. The Boston press is more annoying than anything else. They are a non-factor to onfield performance.

 

Tell that to Crawford and Gonzalez, both of which pressed and/or changed their game because of what they judged the public perception to be. Why did they believe this was the public perception? Because the media constantly asked them about it.

 

So what happens when Grienke starts out slow and the media starts asking "Is it because you are making so much money now?" and "Do you think you're trying to pitch to contact too much?", etc. Just like they asked Gonzalez why he wasn't hitting very many HR last year (2011), and he went into 2012 trying to hit more HR and it crushed his swing.

[a700hitter]

Tell that to Crawford and Gonzalez, both of which pressed and/or changed their game because of what they judged the public perception to be. Why did they believe this was the public perception? Because the media constantly asked them about it.

 

So what happens when Grienke starts out slow and the media starts asking "Is it because you are making so much money now?" and "Do you think you're trying to pitch to contact too much?", etc. Just like they asked Gonzalez why he wasn't hitting very many HR last year (2011), and he went into 2012 trying to hit more HR and it crushed his swing.

Gonzo hit just fine before the All Star Break in 2011. His HR outage was more likely a result of a bad shoulder than the Boston Press. His power stroke did not reappear in LA.

[jung]

In fact he hit 3 HR in 34 games in LA for a whopping 16 per year average....worse even than here.

 

Agons and Crawford were bad fits for the Sox, bad signings and bad contracts and Beckett's was a bad extension....a veritable panoply of contract ugliness went on here from at least 2010 on. To much pushing aside things that should have been real concerns like players with untended injuries or just coming off major surgeries and as yet unproven or even whether a player's characteristics were a fit for the Sox.

 

Like I said above the Sox should really focus their windfall of payroll money on tending to the pitching which is an utter fiasco and should value financial flexibility over long term commitments as much as possible.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Gonzo hit just fine before the All Star Break in 2011. His HR outage was more likely a result of a bad shoulder than the Boston Press. His power stroke did not reappear in LA.

 

Exactly. He got grilled for not hitting many HR last season, and then went into this season with a different approach. He talked about it quite a bit. Even started counting balls that would have been HR in places outside of Boston because of the Monster. If you don't think that got in his head, you're crazy. Be it the fans or the media, or more likely, a combination of both, it got to him.

 

And his power wouldn't just reappear because his swing mechanics were extremely out of sorts all year long because he was trying to do too much, put more loft on the ball, etc, and it took him out of his comfort zone.

 

That's all a result of a big media outlet putting ideas in his head.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Here is Gonzo's quote:

 

"What took my power away was the Green Monster," he said of the 37-foot wall at Boston's Fenway Park, also according to the Times. "I used to hit line drives and they would be doubles. That took away five home runs from me last year. So I would have 32."

 

The media gets to these guys. Believe it or not, the media is a factor. And for a guy like Grienke, it would not work out here. Not with the constant microscopic focus on every facet of his game.

[jung]

Oh you mean that Monster that Agons aimed for so diligently during early 2012? He started the year hitting line drive after line drive directly at the monster or at least trying to and his approach at the plate was specifically designed to hit line drive after line drive directly at the green monster. Agons made a conscience decision to favor what he felt would be the easy double for him over anything else and that is what screwed him up eventually. Why was that???? Did Agons already know something about his power stroke that we did not know?

 

Agons screwed himself up by making it so obvious that he was willing to swing at anything anywhere near the outer half of the plate because those pitches made it easier for him to target that left field wall with line drives. The swings he took were in the main, line drive swings. What do you expect me to believe.....that AGons thought a line drive hit through the wall would be a HR? It got so bad that he became easy to scout and eventually opposing pitchers would just tease him farther and farther outside until he finally would swing at something a foot off the plate or they would eventually bust him inside with pitches he could no longer handle cause he was looking outside so hard.

 

Agons is one of the true kings of ******** revisionist history...making up one excuse after the other. First the travel and schedule is to much for him and then the Monster screwed him up. What a bunch of ********. I am so glad his sorry ass is outta' here.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Oh you mean that Monster that Agons aimed for so diligently during early 2012? He started the year hitting line drive after line drive directly at the monster or at least trying to and his approach at the plate was specifically designed to hit line drive after line drive directly at the green monster. Agons made a conscience decision to favor what he felt would be the easy double for him over anything else and that is what screwed him up eventually. Why was that???? Did Agons already know something about his power stroke that we did not know?

 

Agons screwed himself up by making it so obvious that he was willing to swing at anything anywhere near the outer half of the plate because those pitches made it easier for him to target that left field wall with line drives. The swings he took were in the main, line drive swings. What do you expect me to believe.....that AGons thought a line drive hit through the wall would be a HR? It got so bad that he became easy to scout and eventually opposing pitchers would just tease him farther and farther outside until he finally would swing at something a foot off the plate or they would eventually bust him inside with pitches he could no longer handle cause he was looking outside so hard.

 

Agons is one of the true kings of ******** revisionist history...making up one excuse after the other. First the travel and schedule is to much for him and then the Monster screwed him up. What a bunch of ********. I am so glad his sorry ass is outta' here.

 

How many times did he do that in San Diego?

 

Like I said. The Boston media can crush players. It crushed Gonzo. It crushed Crawford. It will crush Grienke.

[jung]

Agons San Diego history is pre Shoulder surgery...all of it....every single bit of it. But in truth....Agons has no incentive to fix what is likely a screwed up shoulder...why should he....he does not have to worry about a contract again. He is set through the 2018 season and by then he may just retire as opposed to do anything to rectify this situation.

 

I will never blame a player for taking the contract....if the team is stupid enough to offer it he should take it. However I do not believe for a minute that AGons has been honest with himself, the Sox or the fans of Boston or the fans of LA or fans of baseball in general.

 

He will likely play out this string until the end of 2018 making up excuse after excuse for why his HR numbers have never come back after the all star break of 2011. My problem with this situation is that AGons took the money on the pretense of being a power hitter...something he no longer is and something he is not apparently going to even try to rectify. If he was, why try to revise history after the fact. AGons problem in Boston is that we actually watch the games here and we actually know what a hitter is trying to do at the plate. We might not know why he is doing it but we do know what he is doing. That is the difference between San Diego and Boston.

 

The luckiest day in Boston Red Sox history was the day the Dodgers took those s*** contracts and turned them into a measly $12M commitment to the Sox. The Yanks can only hope there is another sucker born a minute from now that owns a baseball team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Jung - The discussion isn't about whether or not Gonzo was a good fit. It's about whether or not the media would affect Grienke, who has an anxiety problem.

 

It already affected Gonzalez and Crawford, who don't have anxiety problems. I don't think it's a question about whether it would affect Grienke.

[a700hitter]

Exactly. He got grilled for not hitting many HR last season, and then went into this season with a different approach. He talked about it quite a bit. Even started counting balls that would have been HR in places outside of Boston because of the Monster. If you don't think that got in his head, you're crazy. Be it the fans or the media, or more likely, a combination of both, it got to him.

 

And his power wouldn't just reappear because his swing mechanics were extremely out of sorts all year long because he was trying to do too much, put more loft on the ball, etc, and it took him out of his comfort zone.

 

That's all a result of a big media outlet putting ideas in his head.

Making adjustments to meet expectations created by the Press in the case of Gonzo and Crawford can screw up a guy's game, but that has nothing to do with anxiety. An anxiety disorder is another whole ball of wax. Gonzo and Crawford were not playing nervous. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of anxiety disorders and a lot of people are making conclusions about Greinke's situation without any expertise or knowledge about the subject. I have said before that they should certainly explore whether he has a personality which will allow him to thrive in Boston. I don't think any of us, Jacko included, know about his bout with anxiety, which has been managed for several years and he has thrived in a profession where he is the focal point of attention each time he performs.

 

BTW, When are we going to settle the sig bet?

[jung]

Anxiety killed Crawford....not only do I believe it...it was forecast for him....not Gonzalez...that guy barely has a pulse....I have never seen such an uninspired and uninspiring $20M player in my entire lifetime and that WAS the AGons of San Diego as well. Totally willing to believe anxiety dug a hole for Crawford that he never dug out of....not Agons, not in my, your or his lifetime. As for Grienke....same risk if not more so than Crawford's.

 

If anything Agons might be a boy in a man's body but I don't know and I don't care to know. Sure as hell did not see any signs of anxiety in Agons either before or in Boston.

 

I would not bring Grienke here unless it was at a price that took into consideration the depth of possibilities in his regard. Just not worth it at the kind of money he will likely command somewhere in baseball.

 

But I will be damned if I am going to be wiling to see AGons slime his way outta' town here on some other bushel barrel of excuses that have something to do with Boston created anxiety or somebody make that excuse for him. That simply widens the field of players that might not be able to play here all the way to guys that barely have a pulse to begin with. Willing to accept that there might be other Crawford's out there that should be avoided....not AGons.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Making adjustments to meet expectations created by the Press in the case of Gonzo and Crawford can screw up a guy's game, but that has nothing to do with anxiety. An anxiety disorder is another whole ball of wax. Gonzo and Crawford were not playing nervous. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of anxiety disorders and a lot of people are making conclusions about Greinke's situation without any expertise or knowledge about the subject. I have said before that they should certainly explore whether he has a personality which will allow him to thrive in Boston. I don't think any of us, Jacko included, know about his bout with anxiety, which has been managed for several years and he has thrived in a profession where he is the focal point of attention each time he performs.

 

BTW, When are we going to settle the sig bet?

 

What I'm saying is that if the media affected those guys, it will certainly affect Grienke. If he's got an anxiety disorder, he won't do well in big markets. And if it got out to the media, it's pretty legit, that stuff stays under wraps for the most part.

 

What was our sig bet again?? I tried to forget everything about last season.

[a700hitter]

What I'm saying is that if the media affected those guys, it will certainly affect Grienke. If he's got an anxiety disorder, he won't do well in big markets. And if it got out to the media, it's pretty legit, that stuff stays under wraps for the most part.

 

What was our sig bet again?? I tried to forget everything about last season.

I don't think we know enough about anxiety disorders to make that conclusion. Boston may not be a good fit for him, but it may not be because of a bout with anxiety that he had several years ago with no recurrence.

 

It is still this season until the World Series is over.

 

As for the sig bet, start at this post and work your way through the thread.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/16635-youk-white-sox-7.html#post775895

 

I think keeping a sig written by me until the end of 2012 would be reasonable.

[Spitball]

Anxiety killed Crawford....not only do I believe it...it was forecast for him....not Gonzalez...that guy barely has a pulse....I have never seen such an uninspired and uninspiring $20M player in my entire lifetime and that WAS the AGons of San Diego as well. Totally willing to believe anxiety dug a hole for Crawford that he never dug out of....not Agons, not in my, your or his lifetime. As for Grienke....same risk if not more so than Crawford's.

 

If anything Agons might be a boy in a man's body but I don't know and I don't care to know. Sure as hell did not see any signs of anxiety in Agons either before or in Boston.

 

I would not bring Grienke here unless it was at a price that took into consideration the depth of possibilities in his regard. Just not worth it at the kind of money he will likely command somewhere in baseball.

 

But I will be damned if I am going to be wiling to see AGons slime his way outta' town here on some other bushel barrel of excuses that have something to do with Boston created anxiety or somebody make that excuse for him. That simply widens the field of players that might not be able to play here all the way to guys that barely have a pulse to begin with. Willing to accept that there might be other Crawford's out there that should be avoided....not AGons.

 

What are you using to so exactly measure anxiety?

[SoxFanForsyth]

I don't think we know enough about anxiety disorders to make that conclusion. Boston may not be a good fit for him, but it may not be because of a bout with anxiety that he had several years ago with no recurrence.

 

It is still this season until the World Series is over.

 

As for the sig bet, start at this post and work your way through the thread.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/16635-youk-white-sox-7.html#post775895

 

I think keeping a sig written by me until the end of 2012 would be reasonable.

 

I only saw 1 sig bet, between you and BTR. Once you guys started talking about it, I bailed. If I'm wrong, feel free to show me the post, I just didn't see it.

[a700hitter]

I only saw 1 sig bet, between you and BTR. Once you guys started talking about it, I bailed. If I'm wrong, feel free to show me the post, I just didn't see it.

Here are the posts that followed:

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/775928-post272.html

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/775931-post273.html

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/775935-post274.html

[SoxFanForsyth]

Here are the posts that followed:

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/775928-post272.html

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/775931-post273.html

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/775935-post274.html

 

Ohh I remember these. I thought we were talking about the whole "who is worth more" on the Youk trade.

 

Alright. Pony up the sig, I'll wear it.

[jung]

In Crawford's case, his play was completely uncharacteristic of anything he had exhibited during his career in Tampa, at least for the time I saw him there....not the actual numbers or performance particularly but the type of player he became.....completely impatient at the plate.....really pretty terrible in the field....eventually appearing to have lost confidence in anything he tried to do on the field....combined with what finally became a strident plea pre 2012 to be left at a particular spot in the lineup....done in a way that I have never seen from a professional ballplayer before. If that was not a plea for help I don't know what is. That all came after the numerous warnings before he came here that he would have a hard time in any high profile market unless things went perfectly for him, from folks like former coaches etc.... suggesting that he was and is pretty fragile in that regard.

 

By the way...I do not consider Anxiety Disorder and suffering from some degree of anxiety as the same thing and I do not believe Crawford has Anxiety Disorder as it would likely have exhibited itself in some other facet of his life....then again....maybe it has.....I don't know.

[jung]

In Crawford's case, his play was completely uncharacteristic of anything he had exhibited during his career in Tampa, at least for the time I saw him there....not the actual numbers or performance particularly but the type of player he became.....completely impatient at the plate.....really pretty terrible in the field....eventually appearing to have lost confidence in anything he tried to do on the field....combined with what finally became a strident plea pre 2012 to be left at a particular spot in the lineup....done in a way that I have never seen from a professional ballplayer before. If that was not a plea for help I don't know what is. That all came after the numerous warnings before he came here that he would have a hard time in any high profile market unless things went perfectly for him, from folks like former coaches etc.... suggesting that he was and is pretty fragile in that regard.

 

By the way...I do not consider Anxiety Disorder and suffering from some degree of anxiety as the same thing and I do not believe Crawford has Anxiety Disorder as it would likely have exhibited itself in some other facet of his life....then again....maybe it has.....I don't know.

[Spitball]

In Crawford's case, his play was completely uncharacteristic of anything he had exhibited during his career in Tampa, at least for the time I saw him there....not the actual numbers or performance particularly but the type of player he became.....completely impatient at the plate.....really pretty terrible in the field....eventually appearing to have lost confidence in anything he tried to do on the field....combined with what finally became a strident plea pre 2012 to be left at a particular spot in the lineup....done in a way that I have never seen from a professional ballplayer before. If that was not a plea for help I don't know what is. That all came after the numerous warnings before he came here that he would have a hard time in any high profile market unless things went perfectly for him, from folks like former coaches etc.... suggesting that he was and is pretty fragile in that regard.

 

By the way...I do not consider Anxiety Disorder and suffering from some degree of anxiety as the same thing and I do not believe Crawford has Anxiety Disorder as it would likely have exhibited itself in some other facet of his life....then again....maybe it has.....I don't know.

 

Well, anxiety is perfectly normal. Everyone experiences it to some degree in life. Athletes certainly can expect anxiety as part of their profession. It is not always an absolute negative. It can spur extra concentration and adrenaline.

 

As for as Greinke, he is older and more experienced today. Disorders are really quite common but their victims often learn compensation skills as they grow older. Some of us on this board may have undiagnosed disorders that we have simply learned to compensate for. Because of this, many of us with disorders never know we have them.

 

Because someone has been diagnosed at one point in their life with a disorder does not mean they can't perform at a normal level in their life. Age, medications, and self compensation skills have let many individuals perform at their full potential despite their conditions.

[iortiz]

I wouldn't touch Jake Peavy with a 10 foot pole. He's had 1 good season in the past 3 years. And it wasn't even an elite season.

 

All you're getting with Jake Peavy is another Josh Beckett. Injury ridden and inconsistent.

 

Peavy would be a big mistake. From 09-11, he made a total of 52 starts. That's averaging 17 starts per season, or essentially missing 1/2 of your starts each year.

 

No on Peavy.

 

Haren is an absolutely perfect buy low candidate. Considering the Angels will offer him a qualifying offer, you'll likely have to pay around $14-15mm for a 1 year deal with him, which is 110% worth it. He's a perfect fit for the Sox while guys like Webster and Barnes continue to progress.

 

Then you go out and trade for either Tim Lincecum or Cliff Lee.

 

The Phillies have $133mm locked into next season, and that's only accounting for 13 players. They are going to need offense badly, especially considering Utley, Howard, and Rollins are all injury ridden at this point. Dishing Cliff Lee for a couple prospects (Doubront + Cecchini should get it done) and salary relief (~24mm/year) would benefit them significantly.

 

The Giants will owe Lincecum $22mm next year. Whether or not they listen on him will be interesting. They've got $81mm locked up for 6 players next year. But they very well may try to extend Lincecum given that they are out from the Zito contract after the 2013 season. Or they may try to get a more balanced team and grab some offense for Lincecum. I would guess that a deal involving Doubront + Ellsbury + Cecchini could work out for Lincecum, and the Sox would then be able to go out and sign a guy like BJ Upton for CF (believe it or not, he and Ellsbury have extremely similar numbers).

 

It will certainly be interesting this offseason. But I've said it a number of times, I think they'll sign Dan Haren and trade for Lee or Lincecum. I also wouldn't be surprised if they contacted the Nats about Mike Morse. He's a versatile guy who can play LF or 1B.

 

Well, if the name is Lee or Lincecum instead of Peavy, you won't hear any complain from me SFF.

 

Unless you set a package around Ells or something, I do not see this happening.

 

The thing with Peavy and Haren is that won't cost you too much and I tend to believe that they would accept a 1-2 year easily.

 

Being honest I do not like the deck of cards that jacko showed, but that's all you have available.

[Behindenemylines]

Do we really want to invest that much money in a 34 year old pitcher (Lee)? An I don't want BJ Upton in Boston. He is the wrong Upton.

[iortiz]

That's the thing, Lee would cost you a lot, reason why I prefer Peavy or even Kuroda.

 

We should have push for Cain or Hammels, but you know our FO.

[SoxFanForsyth]

That was vintage Lincecum tonight.

 

I wonder if the Sox could work out a deal for both Lincecum and Belt. Ellsbury + Webster + Cecchini + Britton?

[SoxFanForsyth]

That's the thing, Lee would cost you a lot, reason why I prefer Peavy or even Kuroda.

 

We should have push for Cain or Hammels, but you know our FO.

 

Both Cain and Hamels were extended before they hit FA. And they weren't about to be traded, hence them being extended.

 

The Sox had no chance at either of them.

[redsoxfan3]

That was vintage Lincecum tonight.

 

I wonder if the Sox could work out a deal for both Lincecum and Belt. Ellsbury + Webster + Cecchini + Britton?

 

Lincecum is a guy that is a backend of the rotation starter in the AL East after the season he had this year. I see him having a bounce back year. If you are telling me we could have Linceum as our number four starter who will give us an ERA around 4.00 and pitching 200+ innings, then I am all for it. I think we would have to take a chance on him after he had an ERA of 5.18 this year. A change of scenery and a switch to the AL might do him some justice, even though the AL East is a tough division to pitch in. I would not be against trading for Belt and Lincecum. The real question is if we could package both Ellsbury and Webster for a true ace. I would test the market for other starters before Lincecum, but this might not be a horrible idea.

[iortiz]

Both Cain and Hamels were extended before they hit FA. And they weren't about to be traded, hence them being extended.

 

The Sox had no chance at either of them.

 

Could our FO talk with them before the extensions were taken place?

[mvp 78]

Both Cain and Hamels were extended before they hit FA. And they weren't about to be traded, hence them being extended.

 

The Sox had no chance at either of them.

 

Shhhhh, it's easier just complaining about the FO for things they can't possibly be at fault for.

[rjortiz]

With the exception of a few, and you know who you are, this is embarassing and insulting to read.