The Starting Pitching Free Agency Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

And where have I said anything else? I havent read as many glowing reviews of his changeup, but it is all about consistency and command with everything. I have said he looks like a pen arm because he hasnt built innings, has inconsistent offspeed stuff and poor command. If he goes to AAA, builds up to 140-150IP, starts getting consistent with his slider and starts locating his stuff, he will be a starter. But you keep touting him as an option for Boston in 2013. If he is in Boston in 2013, he will be a reliever or a s***** starter and will get hit tits lit

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

That's your answer. You said that you would give me an answer. I guess you were just being snarky. What else is new. Here's a question for you. How many players have missed time from baseball due to an anxiety or orther mental disorder who came back to be very successful reliable players for several years who relapsed to miss substantial time years later? Here's another question for you. Do you know how many major league players are under medical treatment for conditions such as ADD, ADHD, OCD, depression etc. ? I know there are enough that their medications are excepted from baseballs banned substance program if they have a prescription for treatment. There are strict privacy laws in place so we would not know. We wouldn't know if any Red Sox have been or are currently treated for any of those conditions.

What the f*** are you rambling about.

 

You asked if there was a higher percentage of people 'cracking up' in Boston than in other cities, in response to people's concerns about Greinke. I asked how many players that have worn the Red Sox uniform have had the kind of mental issues that Greinke's had. You answered one. My reply was meant to show that one isn't a sample size worth dick.

 

All caught up now?

 

Taking that and the fact that the Red Sox need a hell of a lot more than a properly functioning Greinke to be any good next year into account, Greinke just is not worth the risk. The team needs to rebuilt the right way, not with kneejerk signings meant to complement a non-existent core.

 

Oh, and comparing ADD to f***ing anxiety disorder might be the stupidest thing I've read this week.

[SoxFanForsyth]

And where have I said anything else? I havent read as many glowing reviews of his changeup, but it is all about consistency and command with everything. I have said he looks like a pen arm because he hasnt built innings, has inconsistent offspeed stuff and poor command. If he goes to AAA, builds up to 140-150IP, starts getting consistent with his slider and starts locating his stuff, he will be a starter. But you keep touting him as an option for Boston in 2013. If he is in Boston in 2013, he will be a reliever or a s***** starter and will get hit tits lit

 

He threw 100 IP in 2011, 110 IP in 2010. And he was only 22 in 2011, so he's not going to have a ton of innings, but what he did show in 2011 was that he is certainly capable of being a SP in the MLB. He's got 233 IP of work in the minors, to a combined 2.86 ERA.

 

All of the scouting reports have him as a #2 starter or higher. He's going to be 24 years old next year. He's shown he could be a starter at the age of 22, and throw to a sub-4 ERA at that young age.

 

There is no reason to throw him back in AAA when he has already shown that he could start 2 years before that.

 

He can certainly be a SP in 2013 for the Red Sox. All reports are that he's ready right now, you're just being hard headed because you refuse to believe that the Red Sox have any young talent in their farm system.

 

If De La Rosa was in the Yankees organization, he would be the 2nd coming of Pedro Martinez.

[jacksonianmarch]

If he were in the Yankees system, he'd be starting at AAA

[SoxFanForsyth]

If he were in the Yankees system, he'd be starting at AAA

 

Makes less than zero sense. Showed he could start in the MLB two years ago. You have zero reasoning to keep him in AAA. His slider and change are both good enough with his fastball to be an above average starter in the AL. Certainly a #5 for 2013.

[jacksonianmarch]

You are missing the ENTIRE POINT!

 

He's coming off TJS. He has command issues. He hasnt thrown more than 110 innings in a season. He just missed almost all of 2012 He has consistency issues. HOW DOES THAT MAKE HIM READY FOR THE BIGS? You are looking at the 99mph fastball and are looking past his warts. If handled right, he could be a hell of a starter. If thrown out there to the wolves in 2013, he will be a liability.

 

Now, if he goes to AAA, dominates for a couple months, shows command and consistency, then he could be brought up and might be a finished product.

[a700hitter]

What the f*** are you rambling about.

 

You asked if there was a higher percentage of people 'cracking up' in Boston than in other cities, in response to people's concerns about Greinke. I asked how many players that have worn the Red Sox uniform have had the kind of mental issues that Greinke's had. You answered one. My reply was meant to show that one isn't a sample size worth dick.

 

All caught up now?

 

Taking that and the fact that the Red Sox need a hell of a lot more than a properly functioning Greinke to be any good next year into account, Greinke just is not worth the risk. The team needs to rebuilt the right way, not with kneejerk signings meant to complement a non-existent core.

 

Oh, and comparing ADD to f***ing anxiety disorder might be the stupidest thing I've read this week.

How would you go about rebuilding the team and what would be your time horizon for getting back to being a playoff team?

[SoxFanForsyth]

You are missing the ENTIRE POINT!

 

He's coming off TJS. He has command issues. He hasnt thrown more than 110 innings in a season. He just missed almost all of 2012 He has consistency issues. HOW DOES THAT MAKE HIM READY FOR THE BIGS? You are looking at the 99mph fastball and are looking past his warts. If handled right, he could be a hell of a starter. If thrown out there to the wolves in 2013, he will be a liability.

 

Now, if he goes to AAA, dominates for a couple months, shows command and consistency, then he could be brought up and might be a finished product.

 

I'm not missing the point because I know he hasn't just been sitting on his ass for the past year. He had TJS in August of 2011. He had been rehabbing all of 2012. He will continue to rehab during the offseason. I'm sure he'll be in winter leagues throwing in live games in the DR.

 

Do you think he's just going to be sitting on his ass all year? Do you not think the Sox have him in a program right now, getting ready and building stamina for 2013? Do you think the Sox maybe have someone with him working on his release point, his mechanics, etc right now since he sat out for a month and can work this offseason a hell of a lot harder?

 

I feel like you think he's just sitting and watching tv and not working on his stuff. Which is certainly not the case.

[jacksonianmarch]

Of course not. But look at guys who recently came back from TJS and tell me how long it took for them to get back into the flow of things? And we are talking about guys who are established players like Chamberlain, Wainright, etc. This kid is a work in progress coming off TJS. It'd be like me touting Manny Banuelos as a rotation option out of the gate in 2014. It just isnt happening

[SoxFanForsyth]

Of course not. But look at guys who recently came back from TJS and tell me how long it took for them to get back into the flow of things? And we are talking about guys who are established players like Chamberlain, Wainright, etc. This kid is a work in progress coming off TJS. It'd be like me touting Manny Banuelos as a rotation option out of the gate in 2014. It just isnt happening

 

Right. But you're not understanding.

 

Chamberlain, Wainwright, etc. They all had TJS and were back in the bigs in 12 months.

 

De La Rosa will have had 18 months off by the time ST even starts. It will have been 19 months off by the time the season starts. That's a very significant amount of time.

 

Look at Wainwright at around the 16 month mark, which was July. He had a 3.11 ERA from 7/18 - the end of the season.

 

It's not like DLRosa just had TJS in July of this year. He's far enough removed that he will be back into regular form by the time 2013 starts.

[a700hitter]

Right. But you're not understanding.

 

Chamberlain, Wainwright, etc. They all had TJS and were back in the bigs in 12 months.

 

De La Rosa will have had 18 months off by the time ST even starts. It will have been 19 months off by the time the season starts. That's a very significant amount of time.

 

Look at Wainwright at around the 16 month mark, which was July. He had a 3.11 ERA from 7/18 - the end of the season.

 

It's not like DLRosa just had TJS in July of this year. He's far enough removed that he will be back into regular form by the time 2013 starts.

At best, he will be a bull pen piece. The Dodgers have a long history of over-hyping and dumping prospects.

[SoxFanForsyth]

At best, he will be a bull pen piece. The Dodgers have a long history of over-hyping and dumping prospects.

 

That doesn't mean that De La Rosa is overhyped. Not by any means.

 

You're essentially making a point that the Dodgers will never have a high quality prospect ever again.

[jacksonianmarch]

The point I am trying to make is that he hasnt pitched in many games this yr (11IP) and no matter how much he works in the offseason, you learn to trust your stuff in game action. He hasnt done anything significant in a year, he has to relearn his stuff and his body now that he is coming off surgery. Couple that with the fact that prior to his injury, he was a work in progress and you have a guy who needs work. You dont start a guy like that in a rotation at the beginning of the season, and I think the sox will see the point and start him in AAA

[jacksonianmarch]

BTW, for all you guys out there wanting to grab Hamilton and Greinke, are you watching tonight's game? Hamilton is getting booed mercilessly, and he doesnt even look like he wants to be here and is just completely bowing out.

[a700hitter]

That doesn't mean that De La Rosa is overhyped. Not by any means.

 

You're essentially making a point that the Dodgers will never have a high quality prospect ever again.

No, those are the ones that they keep. They do a great job at pumping and dumping the rest.

[example1]

BTW, for all you guys out there wanting to grab Hamilton and Greinke, are you watching tonight's game? Hamilton is getting booed mercilessly, and he doesnt even look like he wants to be here and is just completely bowing out.

 

No thanks on Hamilton. No thanks on Napoli, unless the deal is really good.

[SCM33]

What the f*** are you rambling about.

 

You asked if there was a higher percentage of people 'cracking up' in Boston than in other cities, in response to people's concerns about Greinke. I asked how many players that have worn the Red Sox uniform have had the kind of mental issues that Greinke's had. You answered one. My reply was meant to show that one isn't a sample size worth dick.

 

Matt Clement

Carl Crawford

Adrian Gonzalez

Edgar Renterria

Carl Everett

Derek Lowe (twice, once as a starter, once as the closer)

Jeff Suppan

Dare I say Dice-K??

Ramon Ramirez

 

There are plenty of guys out there who were not suited to play in Boston besides Jimmy Piersall.

 

Zach Greinke has ZERO business being pursued by management. It will be a disaster.

[a700hitter]

Matt Clement

Carl Crawford

Adrian Gonzalez

Edgar Renterria

Carl Everett

Derek Lowe (twice, once as a starter, once as the closer)

Jeff Suppan

Dare I say Dice-K??

Ramon Ramirez

 

There are plenty of guys out there who were not suited to play in Boston besides Jimmy Piersall.

 

Zach Greinke has ZERO business being pursued by management. It will be a disaster.

Piersall had a pretty good career in Boston. The other guys you mentioned did not have personalities suited to Boston. They did not have any mental disorders, except Carl Everett who was a flat out nut. Most players that have an anxiety issues who work thru it to enjoy success don't usually have the problem interfere with their careers again. Greinke is an example. He's been traded twice and thrived. Getting traded and uprooting your life is a high stress life event. Votto is another example, and so is J.J. Hardy. If his personality doesn't fit Boston that would be important to know, but personality has no connection with an anxiety disorder which has obviously been managed and overcome.

[redsoxfan3]

No thanks on Hamilton. No thanks on Napoli, unless the deal is really good.

 

I am a no on Hamilton, but I am a yes on Napoli. He would be a great addition because of his flexibility of being able to play both 1B and C. Those are two positions that we could use improvement. He did have a down year offensively, but if he can even regain some of his performance from 2011, then he will be worth it. In 2011, he had a .320 BA, .414 OBP, 1.046 OPS, 173 OPS+, 30 HR's, and 75 RBI's. This year he only hit .227, .810 OPS, 24 HR's, and 56 RBI's. If he can even hit to his career average of .259, with an OBP of .356, I think that will be pretty decent. He will be able to hit 20+ HR's and I think with Ross, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Middlebrooks, and Ortiz in the lineup, his RBI's will go up, especially hitting in a hitter's ballpark like Fenway. Ross hit close to his numbers with Florida from '08 and '09 this year by playing in Fenway. I think it is realistic to say that Napoli has the potential to succeed at Fenway as well if he can avoid injuries.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Jackso (or anyone else interested in De La Rosa) - You should read this -

 

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2012/10/06/rubby-gem-look-new-red-sox-pitcher-rubby-de-la

 

Essentially it says that De La Rosa is a top of the rotation starter, his changeup is an 80 on a 20-80 scale, but that he needs just a bit of time to get back into his groove, so he'll start in AAA.

 

It's pretty much a perfect compromise in the discussion Jackso and I were having regarding him. I was wrong in that he won't be ready by next season, Jackso was wrong in that he's much more than just a bullpen arm.

[a700hitter]

Jackso (or anyone else interested in De La Rosa) - You should read this -

 

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2012/10/06/rubby-gem-look-new-red-sox-pitcher-rubby-de-la

 

Essentially it says that De La Rosa is a top of the rotation starter, his changeup is an 80 on a 20-80 scale, but that he needs just a bit of time to get back into his groove, so he'll start in AAA.

 

It's pretty much a perfect compromise in the discussion Jackso and I were having regarding him. I was wrong in that he won't be ready by next season, Jackso was wrong in that he's much more than just a bullpen arm.

You are starting to get over-enthusiatic very early. Can we wait until Spring Training before we start penciling this guy in the rotation?

[SoxFanForsyth]

You are starting to get over-enthusiatic very early. Can we wait until Spring Training before we start penciling this guy in the rotation?

 

I literally just said he won't be in the rotation next year.

 

How am I overly enthusiastic by posting an article that was written this morning??

[Behindenemylines]

If healthy it is another arm to put in the mix down the line.

[SoxFanForsyth]

If healthy it is another arm to put in the mix down the line.

 

Exactly. And I don't want to trade away Webster, De La Rosa, Barnes, or Owens because I really think that could be a huge wave of starting pitching that rolls through the Sox organization over the next 3 to 5 years.

 

You've got De La Rosa, who will likely have a few starts in 2013 and will be in the rotation by 2014.

 

You've got Webster and Barnes, who will likely both start 2013 in AA and finish in AAA. Ready to make some spot starts in 2014, hopefully to the rotation by 2015.

 

And you've got Owens, who many believe is the Sox top pitching prospect. He'll likely start in A+ next year, potentially end the year in AA, and be ready to be called up for spot starts during 2015, rotation by 2016.

 

This is all obviously extremely far out and with prospects nothing is a guarantee, but I really think this is the best the Sox farm system has been set up in terms of starting pitching in a very long time.

 

That's not even mentioning some of the bullpen pieces and back of the rotation pieces that could turn into more like Drake Britton, Anthony Ranaudo, Alex Wilson, Brian Johnson, Brandon Workman, etc.

[a700hitter]

I literally just said he won't be in the rotation next year.

 

How am I overly enthusiastic by posting an article that was written this morning??

Okay, good. I just don't want to see you setting yourself up to get crushed by disappointment.

[a700hitter]

I literally just said he won't be in the rotation next year.

 

How am I overly enthusiastic by posting an article that was written this morning??

BTW, I am thinking about your sig for losing the bet. PM me if you have any suggestions.

[Spitball]

Piersall had a pretty good career in Boston. The other guys you mentioned did not have personalities suited to Boston. They did not have any mental disorders, except Carl Everett who was a flat out nut. Most players that have an anxiety issues who work thru it to enjoy success don't usually have the problem interfere with their careers again. Greinke is an example. He's been traded twice and thrived. Getting traded and uprooting your life is a high stress life event. Votto is another example, and so is J.J. Hardy. If his personality doesn't fit Boston that would be important to know, but personality has no connection with an anxiety disorder which has obviously been managed and overcome.

 

Good points. We have come a long, long way in terms of understanding and treatment of mental/anxiety disorders. I am not saying all disorders are effectively controlled with medication and counselling. My daughter is a licensed professional in mental health field, and I know better. But, that does not mean Greinke is not managing his psychological issues.

 

It has become an accepted "fact" that Greinke can't make it in a large market. I don't know where we see proof of that. In fact, The Angels play in a large market.

[mvp 78]

The Angels are in a big market, but they are way down the popularity chart in LA with very little fan pressure.

[Spitball]

The Angels are in a big market, but they are way down the popularity chart in LA with very little fan pressure.

 

Way down? The Dodgers were fifth in attendance, the Angels seventh, and the Red Sox eighth.

[mvp 78]

Yes, because attendence is the sole factor regarding fan intensity and pressure... Not that they're in laid back Orange County or anything...