Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

What Marlins asked for and whether there were any firm offers is a subject for pure conjecture. It's just a guess, and probably an inaccurate guess at that. The only thing that is certain is that the Jays got the deal done and picked up big talent on both sides of the ball.

 

Unless Cherington comes clean we most likely never know who we offered or even if there was a serious exchange of prospects mentioned. What I do know is that if our young players prove that they are ready they must not be blocked anymore. If that means sitting the fast fading Victorino or the sloppy fielding and one trick pony Gomes, that's the way it has to be. Give Epstein credit for one thing. When Henry benched Lucchino from on field developments Theo made sure that Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester and Papelbon got their chances instead of some old veterans long past their prime aka, Lucchino types.

 

Now that Larry the Lizard is back in control and using Cherington as his errand boy, we have to hope that these young guys get their chances when they need to instead of almost being buried as Youkilis was until he was 27.

[BSN07]

The odd thing is the Red Sox wound up spending more money pre-season on new players than the Jays did. The Jays got more quality, especially in pitching, and the Red Sox got more players. It will still boil down to pitching, as to which team finishes higher.

 

Yes but it's all short term money. If they had received the Marlins package it would have been a long term commitment with players marginally better then the group they just shipped off. It didn't make sense.

[Spitball]

Yes but it's all short term money. If they had received the Marlins package it would have been a long term commitment with players marginally better then the group they just shipped off. It didn't make sense.

 

I agree, plus the Marlins were a bad team in the (easier) National League with the very same players. The Jays were a similarly bad team last year. I am not sure the math adds up to a vastly improved team in Toronto.

[dupree]

I agree, plus the Marlins were a bad team in the (easier) National League with the very same players. The Jays were a similarly bad team last year. I am not sure the math adds up to a vastly improved team in Toronto.

 

Thank you Spitball, im glad someone else feels that way. At the start or the Hot Stove season the Jays were the favorites up until the Angels made the Hamilton splash was presumed to be the WS champions with the additions from the Marlins.

 

I just think at the Jays may be a tad bit in front of the rest of the AL East clubs but i think Johnson and Reyes have to prove themselves in the AL. I see the rest of the AL East stacking up about on an even slat. I know im gonna get flak for saying that but thats just the way i feel i dont see none of the 4 remaining teams springing into a clear second as of now. All four has questions but i think whichever team finishes second will win a wild card spot thats pretty much a given.

[seabeachfred]

Yes but it's all short term money. If they had received the Marlins package it would have been a long term commitment with players marginally better then the group they just shipped off. It didn't make sense.

 

True for the most part, but I don't consider Victorino's bloated three year $39 million contract short term. The reason is that most likely Bradley, Brentz and maybe even Swihart might be ready to move up to the Red Sox, and while the latter is not an outfielder who knows if he might be switched to another position---and what if they decide to move Bogey to the outfield? I'm hoping Victorino's bloated contract doesn't turn out to be a yoke around the Red Sox's neck. Still, I would not have traded those prospects for the guys the Jays got. We need to get younger and might have the right players to it with.....if they are given the chance to show what they can do.

[Spitball]

Thank you Spitball, im glad someone else feels that way. At the start or the Hot Stove season the Jays were the favorites up until the Angels made the Hamilton splash was presumed to be the WS champions with the additions from the Marlins.

 

I just think at the Jays may be a tad bit in front of the rest of the AL East clubs but i think Johnson and Reyes have to prove themselves in the AL. I see the rest of the AL East stacking up about on an even slat. I know im gonna get flak for saying that but thats just the way i feel i dont see none of the 4 remaining teams springing into a clear second as of now. All four has questions but i think whichever team finishes second will win a wild card spot thats pretty much a given.

 

You are right. It is always hard to predict how teams and the season will play out. After last off season, everyone was predicting the Angels were a lock after acquiring the top pitcher available in C.J. Wilson and top hitter Albert Pujols. Who was predicting they would be out of the playoffs and the Oakland A s would win the A.L. West?

[dupree]

You are right. It is always hard to predict how teams and the season will play out. After last off season, everyone was predicting the Angels were a lock after acquiring the top pitcher available in C.J. Wilson and top hitter Albert Pujols. Who was predicting they would be out of the playoffs and the Oakland A s would win the A.L. West?

 

Exactly and now they made another splash again with Hamilton which i think is gonna take a bit of a drop in production hitting half his games in LA... Texas was more of a hitters park and im just betting on a drop in numbers but that #3 & #4 hitters is scary im not saying as lethal as Detroit but still pretty nasty. I wouldnt be suprised if Oakland wins that divison again. Texas is down Seattle and the Astros are not in the picture and i dont thing the starter staff for the Angels is not as good top to bottom as Oakland. I like the youngsters and other than Weaver who is ace caliber the Angels rotation is a bunch of one #3 starter and three #5s. Vargas Blanton and Hanson not that big of upgrade i would rather have resigned the 2012 back than what they got.

 

One question with the Jays additions is if Johnson will stay healthy and how he will adapt to the tough lineups in the AL. I think him and Dickey are gonna get smashed this year. Just not a big fan of a knuckleballer being the ace of a staff. Not saying it cant work just not a big fan. I loved Wakefield and what he done for us but i would rather watch paint dry than watch a knuckler pitch.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Angels actually revamped their staff quietly. Their 1-2 is as good as any in baseball in Weaver and Wilson. They got Vargas from Seattle who has quietly been on of the more consistent starters in the majors the last 3 yrs. They got Tommy Hanson who is a good pitcher with some injury woes, but if he can stay healthy, he has top of the rotation potential. And they have Blanton for the five, who will likely need replacing come seasons end. That lineup in LAA is deadly. They have 4 guys capable of hitting 30+ HR, they have a SS and CFer who'll steal 30+ bags and a solid player in Kendrick manning second. Their biggest concerns will like in Bourjos' ability to stay healthy and with their C position. Can Iannetta stay healthy? They're gonna be in this thing the whole way. Also, I think Albert is going to win the AL MVP

[Dojji]

I agree, plus the Marlins were a bad team in the (easier) National League with the very same players. The Jays were a similarly bad team last year. I am not sure the math adds up to a vastly improved team in Toronto.

 

Not sure how logical that point is. No matter how bad a team is, it has a few strengths and MIA switched out its strongest players for prospects in that deal. Just because those were the best players on a joke team doesn't mean they can't help an actual baseball team get better.

[Dojji]

The Angels actually revamped their staff quietly. Their 1-2 is as good as any in baseball in Weaver and Wilson. They got Vargas from Seattle who has quietly been on of the more consistent starters in the majors the last 3 yrs. They got Tommy Hanson who is a good pitcher with some injury woes, but if he can stay healthy, he has top of the rotation potential. And they have Blanton for the five, who will likely need replacing come seasons end. That lineup in LAA is deadly. They have 4 guys capable of hitting 30+ HR, they have a SS and CFer who'll steal 30+ bags and a solid player in Kendrick manning second. Their biggest concerns will like in Bourjos' ability to stay healthy and with their C position. Can Iannetta stay healthy? They're gonna be in this thing the whole way. Also, I think Albert is going to win the AL MVP

 

The Angels are a darn good collection of players, but they had a hard time being a good team last year. That said their management team is as good as it gets, so I don't expect that to be an unsolvable problem for them. That said, they definitely do have to solve it this year if they want to go all the way..

[BSN07]

True for the most part, but I don't consider Victorino's bloated three year $39 million contract short term. The reason is that most likely Bradley, Brentz and maybe even Swihart might be ready to move up to the Red Sox, and while the latter is not an outfielder who knows if he might be switched to another position---and what if they decide to move Bogey to the outfield? I'm hoping Victorino's bloated contract doesn't turn out to be a yoke around the Red Sox's neck. Still, I would not have traded those prospects for the guys the Jays got. We need to get younger and might have the right players to it with.....if they are given the chance to show what they can do.

 

Bradley is a year off, Jacoby will make an opening for him when he heads west next year. Brentz and Swihart are not sure things, but if they do make it, it won't be for at least 2 years. And at that point there will be openings in LF and Vic will have one year left. Vic was a good veteran signing in an OF that is getting ready to go through a youth movement over the course of his 3 year deal. You might not like that it's 3 years, but give the Sox FO some credit for getting him at 3 years instead of matching the Guardians 4 year offer.

[Orange Juiced]

The odd thing is the Red Sox wound up spending more money pre-season on new players than the Jays did. The Jays got more quality, especially in pitching, and the Red Sox got more players. It will still boil down to pitching, as to which team finishes higher.

 

Yes, the Sox may have spent more $$ on more players, and the Jays may have gotten better players at a cheaper price, but the Sox didn't deal away any of their real prospects this offseason. So they added some pieces and kept all their good young guns.

 

I am hoping that they can compete for the last playoff spot without dealing away any of these excellent prospects. That'll keep this year interesting but still keep them set up for 2014 and beyond. Which I think was their plan all along this offseason.

[Palodios]

The Tigers are looking for a closer, and may be willing to trade Rick Porcello. Maybe if Bailey gets his s*** together in spring training there may be a fit.

[BSN07]

The Tigers are looking for a closer, and may be willing to trade Rick Porcello. Maybe if Bailey gets his s*** together in spring training there may be a fit.

 

I wouldn't mind that at all. But they would have to move someone from the rotation. In the end I think they sign Wilson and have a closer by committe until someone steps up or Wilson is ready to go.

 

Also Texas is in on Porcello too.

[Palodios]

I wouldn't mind that at all. But they would have to move someone from the rotation. In the end I think they sign Wilson and have a closer by committe until someone steps up or Wilson is ready to go.

 

Also Texas is in on Porcello too.

 

Detroit is looking for a closer, and it doesn't seem like Texas has one to spare. Jay Frasor has some experience, but I doubt he'd be what the Tigers are looking for. I also wonder if Detroit sees the Rangers as more of a threat going into 2013 than the Red Sox, and might not be willing to deal to another contender.

[BSN07]

Detroit is looking for a closer, and it doesn't seem like Texas has one to spare. Jay Frasor has some experience, but I doubt he'd be what the Tigers are looking for. I also wonder if Detroit sees the Rangers as more of a threat going into 2013 than the Red Sox, and might not be willing to deal to another contender.

 

That's a good point.

 

I think Texas is going to be the one that gives Lohse his pillow contract and they looked in on Porcello to see what the cost was.

[rjortiz]

Porcello probably could be had for Bailey. Maybe later in the season, when Lackey is getting shelled, and Doubrount is walking over 6 per 9.

[seabeachfred]

Detroit is looking for a closer, and it doesn't seem like Texas has one to spare. Jay Frasor has some experience, but I doubt he'd be what the Tigers are looking for. I also wonder if Detroit sees the Rangers as more of a threat going into 2013 than the Red Sox, and might not be willing to deal to another contender.

 

It is certainly worth looking into any possible deal for Ric Porcello, especially if the Tigers are looking for a closer and we have two of them. The Rangers have Frasor who is not that much of a deal closer and in fact didn't close for them last year. Yes, Bailey was hurt and didn't distinguish himself all that well when he came back but he has the background and past success with his work with the A's. I never look away when a potential deal for a seasoned starting pitcher is bandied about. I just wish Cherington would get involved in this. We might pick up a pretty decent starter, one who is better than at least two of the ones we currently have, and maybe even three of them.

[mvp 78]

Decent starter? Porcello? The same guy who lead the league in hits allowed last year (over 2 hits for each K btw)? The same guy who has a career ERA above 4.50 in a weak division?

 

No thanks...

[jacksonianmarch]

Porcello probably could be had for Bailey. Maybe later in the season, when Lackey is getting shelled, and Doubrount is walking over 6 per 9.

 

??? No way. Porcello is worth way more than Bailey.

[rjortiz]

??? No way. Porcello is worth way more than Bailey.

 

I don't know about a lot more. He's been a below average starter his entire career, so any team trading for him is banking on a breakout. He was a super two, so he's not exactly going to be a bargain going forward.

[Palodios]

??? No way. Porcello is worth way more than Bailey.

 

We're talking about a guy whose last three season ERAs were 4.59, 4.75 and 4.92, and broken the 180 inning mark once in his career. 5 K/9, 6 IP per outing. He's a number 6 starter on a playoff team, maybe a #4/5 on the Red Sox.

 

Bailey needs to show that he's healthy and effective obviously, but if he does that, I don't see their values being significantly different.

[a700hitter]

We're talking about a guy whose last three season ERAs were 4.59, 4.75 and 4.92, and broken the 180 inning mark once in his career. 5 K/9, 6 IP per outing. He's a number 6 starter on a playoff team, maybe a #4/5 on the Red Sox.

 

Bailey needs to show that he's healthy and effective obviously, but if he does that, I don't see their values being significantly different.

Is Porcello a guy tht you would like the Sox to get?

[Palodios]

Is Porcello a guy tht you would like the Sox to get?

 

His groundball numbers make him interesting. Much moreso than Lackey.

[jacksonianmarch]

We're talking about a guy whose last three season ERAs were 4.59, 4.75 and 4.92, and broken the 180 inning mark once in his career. 5 K/9, 6 IP per outing. He's a number 6 starter on a playoff team, maybe a #4/5 on the Red Sox.

 

Bailey needs to show that he's healthy and effective obviously, but if he does that, I don't see their values being significantly different.

 

Porcello is a guy who they rushed to the big leagues and he's been behind in getting his s*** right. He just turned 24 yrs old and has had 4 complete big league seasons. He also has very good stuff, just inconsistent command. He's your prototypical rookie who, instead of being brought through the minors slowly was overexposed at the big league level and has learned on the fly. His BABIP is incredibly high and even with the low K rate, it's risen every year. He's learning. A change of scenery and a new pitching coach could be all that stands in his way of becoming an ace

[BSN07]

Porcello is a guy who they rushed to the big leagues and he's been behind in getting his s*** right. He just turned 24 yrs old and has had 4 complete big league seasons. He also has very good stuff, just inconsistent command. He's your prototypical rookie who, instead of being brought through the minors slowly was overexposed at the big league level and has learned on the fly. His BABIP is incredibly high and even with the low K rate, it's risen every year. He's learning. A change of scenery and a new pitching coach could be all that stands in his way of becoming an ace

 

The Tigers seem to rush a lot of their pitchers to the Majors.

[Orange Juiced]

Is Porcello a guy tht you would like the Sox to get?

 

IMO, Porcello is exactly the kind of guy the Sox should be interested in. Pretty high ceiling, young, and, as jacksonianmarch pointed out, instead of learning his craft in the comfort of the minor leagues, he's had to do it in the majors. For comparison's sake, at ages 20-23, Jon Lester was in rookie ball, A ball, A+ ball, AA, AAA, and pitched a few games (27 total, at ages 22 and 23) in the majors. Porcello spent ages 20-23 in the majors.

 

At age 24, Jon Lester got his first full-time shot in the bigs, pitching 33 games for the Red Sox. He went 16-6 with a 3.21 era. Porcello is 24 this season.

 

I'm not saying he's going to be as good as Lester. No way to know that. But we can take his major league numbers so far and take them with a HUGE grain of salt, because he was learning against the very best when most pitchers are blowing away minor leaguers. Put Porcello in AA right now and he's putting up silly numbers, and we'd all be pumped about this can't-miss kid.

 

The sticking point with Porcello is the cost. We bring up Webster and it costs them nearly nothing. Porcello won't be that cheap, and he'll get expensive much faster than a typical rookie callup.

[rjortiz]

IMO, Porcello is exactly the kind of guy the Sox should be interested in. Pretty high ceiling, young, and, as jacksonianmarch pointed out, instead of learning his craft in the comfort of the minor leagues, he's had to do it in the majors. For comparison's sake, at ages 20-23, Jon Lester was in rookie ball, A ball, A+ ball, AA, AAA, and pitched a few games (27 total, at ages 22 and 23) in the majors. Porcello spent ages 20-23 in the majors.

 

At age 24, Jon Lester got his first full-time shot in the bigs, pitching 33 games for the Red Sox. He went 16-6 with a 3.21 era. Porcello is 24 this season.

 

I'm not saying he's going to be as good as Lester. No way to know that. But we can take his major league numbers so far and take them with a HUGE grain of salt, because he was learning against the very best when most pitchers are blowing away minor leaguers. Put Porcello in AA right now and he's putting up silly numbers, and we'd all be pumped about this can't-miss kid.

 

The sticking point with Porcello is the cost. We bring up Webster and it costs them nearly nothing. Porcello won't be that cheap, and he'll get expensive much faster than a typical rookie callup.

 

He's a super two, so he's going to be expensive as soon as next year.

[Orange Juiced]

He's a super two, so he's going to be expensive as soon as next year.

 

And that's the problem.

[rjortiz]

Would you pay $10 million for a back end starter?