Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

The point is that Lavs is better than Salty now. All Salty has is those 25 home runs.

 

The "lions share" of went wrong with Salty was ever thinking he was going to develop as a catcher in the first place. He simply does not have enough physical skill for the job. Not sure about his mental alacrity but I can see his physical skills with my own two eyes.

 

How? His "supple glove hand?"

 

Lavs flat out sucked when he came up last year. I think he's the most overrated prospect the Sox have had in a while. At this moment he is below average defensively and offensively. If he's not beating down the doors for playing time, it's because he's not that good.

[jung]

How....he is much quicker out of the crouch than Salty...much more agile than Salty....gets out in front of the plate to make plays better than Salty.....gives better targets than Salty......can frame the pitch better than Salty....in general receives the ball better than Salty, throws more consistently than Salty, blocks balls in the dirt better than Salty....he finds the ball in the air faster than Salty....finds and catches the ball from the outfield better than Salty....is ahead of Salty on the developmental curve as a catcher while still being 2.5 years younger. Is that enough? In some of these categories Lavs is already noticeably better while still having upside. Salty on the other hand is pretty terrible in all of these areas and because of his physical limitations (slow out of the crouch, stone hands etc) I simply do not see how Salty can be expected to improve much.

 

All Salty has is those 25 HR's all hit because he is strong AND every single swing is a swing for the fences, which is why his 25 HR's comes at the expense of monster K's.

 

Lavs is not at this point a fully developed catcher but he is better than Salty and I don't perceive developmental damage to Lavs in playing him now cause he should not lose reps to Ross. Ross should not play more games with Lavs here than he would be playing with Salty here.

[Dojji]

The point is that Lavs is better than Salty now. All Salty has is those 25 home runs.

 

The "lions share" of went wrong with Salty was ever thinking he was going to develop as a catcher in the first place. He simply does not have enough physical skill for the job. Not sure about his mental alacrity but I can see his physical skills with my own two eyes.

 

All this is is more "I hate Salty so let someone else start, Lavs is someone else, so let Lavs start." You have done nothing to demonstrate that Lavarnway should be brought up to the majors, to replace Saltalamacchia or for any other reason.

 

You're so ridiculously focused on your hate-on for Salty you aren't actually reading long enough to understand the REASONS WHY people are arguing with you about exactly why the oh-so-horrible salty shouldn't be replaced immediately. No one is arguing with you that Salty is anything other than a deeply flawed catcher and I'd love to replace him. But not with Lavarnway who is by no means ready for prime time. And if not by Lavarnway, and certainly not by the career backup that is Ross, then by who?

[Dojji]

Lavs is not at this point a fully developed catcher but he is better than Salty and I don't perceive developmental damage to Lavs in playing him now cause he should not lose reps to Ross. Ross should not play more games with Lavs here than he would be playing with Salty here.

 

If Lavarnway is raw in his gamecalling and receivership, and that hurts our chances to win, Ross will play more and Lavarnway will get fewer reps than he would have gotten at AAA. The team has not thrown in the towel on this season. Not yet anyway.

 

You're trying to paint this as a zero risk transaction. I'm sorry, but that's absurdly untrue.

[jung]

Lavs is already better as a receiver than Salty. As for how they both call a game are we going to contend that Salty calls a great game??? I would call that a wash between the two of them. I repeat for the hard of reading....for my money....Lavs is already ahead of Salty on the developmental curve as a catcher and has better physical attributes, better tools to help him develop further...hence the better upside for Lavs not Salty. I don't see anything that Salty has that recommends him for more reps than Lavs vs Ross unless one overly factors for those 25 HR's but since this is Boston of course 25 HRs makes all the dif in the world. We will take any play here in Boston for the possibility of 25 HR's even if only achievable via a strong kid taking every swing for the fences...the classic flaw in the Boston thought process for as long as I can remember which predates the 67 WS run. Boston cares about pitching only occasionally, overall play almost never, but power.....give us a kid with some power and he could be a butcher even at one of the more important defensive positions on the field for all we care. So in this particular situation, I would opt for Lavs as there is nothing about the current Boston catching arrangement to recommend it and I don't in this instance see a downside to Lavs development if he is playing here. In fact if his issues are as Riddicks appear to have been, it might actually be the final key to unlocking Lavs full potential at the plate.

[Dojji]

Lavs is already better as a receiver than Salty.

 

(impenetrable wall of text follows)

 

SO WHAT???? THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ANY GOOD!!!!! AND NO ONE IS DEBATING THIS ANYWAY!!!!

 

CAN YOU READ IT THIS TIME????

 

 

 

Good lord, Jung, most people have these things, one on each side of their heads. I believe they're called ears. I'd assumed up to this point that they came standard on every model. Now I'm not quote so sure.

 

Our hesitation to bring up Lavarnway has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with failing to understand that Lavarnway is not flawed, or at least not flawed to as great an extent, as Salty in certain areas. It has everything to do with the fact that Lavarnway is not as ready as Lavarnway could be.

 

If putting up with a few more months of Salty gets Lavarnway over the hump so that he's actually effective when he next comes up, then so be it.

 

Oh yeah, and rant about 25 HR's again -- you know, that thing that no one is arguing with you about that just goes to prove you're screaming at imaginary shadows rather than actually discussing.

[jung]

OK so what supports your argument that Lavs will not continue to develop if he is playing up here?

 

What supports your claim that a "few more months of Salty gets Lavarnway over the hump" or will mean anything positive or negative about Lavs development?

 

Since you are "tired" of hearing about the 25 HR's what supports your contention that Ross should get more reps up here if Lavs were here than Salty, if not the 25 HR's? What? that Salty calls a better game than Lavs...really? That Salty is a better receiver than Lavs....really? As I said, I can not do more than claim the issue of who calls a better game a wash between the two of them...but for the rest....all I need is a pair of eyes. Ya' know eyes.... the things you see and read with....not ears....the things you hear with. Big letters don't make your opinion any more right than mine by the way.

 

I generally do not put much stock in ML coaches putting much time into helping a player come along with the exception this year that the Sox have hired on Tek. Do you think Tek will be spending more time with Salty if he is here or with Lavs and who would you rather Tek put that time? I would prefer Lavs myself, if for no other reason than that Lavs has better physical tools than Salty and can likely put the effort to better use than Salty.

 

Maybe Lavs is a dolt and Salty is a genius, better able to absorb Tek's tutelage on the mental side of the game. I cannot tell anything about either as far as that goes. However Lavs did attend Yale. Salty did not go to college. So if you were a betting man which would you think had a better chance of absorbing Tek's tutelage on the mental aspects of being a catcher?

 

Lav's having better physical skills than Salty as it relates to duties behind the plate is likely an opinion that many would share. That would at least be my guess as the dif is pretty obvious.

 

I am not really claiming the season is washed out at this point although I don't have high hopes for it. I think they will achieve some level of respectability which would actually be a welcome relief from two seasons of utter and abysmal failure and embarrassment. However I don't have much hope for anything beyond that. I am claiming that the Sox do a great deal for optics, certainly more than I suspect any of us would like. I do suspect that the Sox would think the optics better keeping Salty than bringing up Lavs for any number of reasons. What they think and do is clearly more relevant than anything any of us think and do on a discussion forum.

 

And on that score...so my preference is for Lavs to come up and yours is for Salty to stay....at the end of the day what either of us thinks on this topic does not make a dimes worth of dif one way or the other.

[wyo-sox]

Jung in general I really enjoy your posts and analysis even if it's something we disagree on a bit..... but using the Yale college history of Lavs to think he has a better chance of learning how to catch compared to a player that did not go to college feels like a stretch. Whether I agree or not I can't argue with much you say, but that made me laugh a little. Not trying to be a smart ass, just keeping it light hearted.

[jung]

Not trying to be a smart ass, just keeping it light hearted.

 

Obviously a comment from a Harvard grad.:D

 

Hopefully you caught that I did not make anything even close to a definitive statement in that regard.

[wyo-sox]

Obviously a comment from a Harvard grad.:D

 

Hopefully you caught that I did not make anything even close to a definitive statement in that regard.

 

I didn't read too much into it, lol. And me and Harvard.... I can honestly say I did not accept the offer to go there:D

[jung]

I can honestly say I did not accept the offer to go there

 

I also resisted the urge to accept wyo...thought the post grad career opportunities to limited.:blink:

[BSN07]

I also resisted the urge to accept wyo...thought the post grad career opportunities to limited.:blink:

 

I don't care about typo's. I'm the master of them. But considering you were discussing turning down Harvard because it was "to limited" instead of "too limited" made me lol

[jung]

Good catch 07...getting lazy in my old age.

[seabeachfred]

The Salty "project" is an effort to fit a square peg in a round hole. They should send him packing so somebody else can enjoy the project. At this rate when is he actually going to become a catcher? He will be 28 in May. That makes him 2.5 years older than Lavarnway and Lavarnway is ahead of him on the developmental path even with all the seasoning Salty has gotten at the major league level.

 

And where are those HR's going to go once Salty's legs start to go? Then what will you have....a guy that does not possess some of the basic rudimentary skills of a catcher that no longer even hits HR's but probably still K's about has much as Salty K's now.

 

Is anybody going to try to make the case that we will be someday be pining for Jarrod Saltamachia? If that happens the Sox FO is even more inept than even its most vocal critics suggest.

 

Is there? I know of one on this board who might try and start pining for Salty, but that's beside the point. Jarrod stinks!!!!!! He can hit home runs, but he is a poor run producer. Two years as a starter and he still can't call a game, still has a rag arm, still allow the team's ERA to balloon when he catches, still has a miserable OBA---and Cherington says he is one of the best catchers in the league? What more proof is needed for Cherries' total incompetence and malfeasance in this position than saying something stupid like that?

 

700 Hitter brought up the Peter Principle and if it doesn't fit with Cherington I don't know what does. Notice guys like Byrnes and Hoyer went on to other higher jobs. You know of any team that has made an offer to this bum to go and run their team? Henry saved money promoting this slagheap and it helps Lucchino to have a patsy he can toss around like a rubber ball, but it doesn't bode well for the well being of the Red Sox.

[seabeachfred]

You cannot look at any ballplayer in your system without considering the other options in your system. That is just plain lunacy. I don't spend much time on Lavs because what he has should be easy for anybody with a pair of eyes to see.

 

If we had a good option at catcher I would say, leave Lavarnway where he is or move him. We don't have a good option at catcher. We have the ever hideous Salty and his back up which dooms us to Salty getting most of the work......Why?... For the possibility of those 25 HR even at the expense of 200K's....terrific....how Red Sox is that! Lets not forget that Salty generated those 25 HR's by swinging for the fences on every swing...a final concession on his part to the fact that a more balanced hitting posture would not yield enough walks and hits to be a reasonable approach. So Salty has already hoisted the white flag on a more balanced hitting posture.

 

As for Lavarnway's deficiencies....he is still ahead of Salty on the developmental curve and 2.5 years younger. He is already a better defensive catcher that has way more upside to become an even better catcher than Salty could ever hope to become. He is much quicker moving around behind the plate...much more agile, faster and capable of getting up out of his crouch to make plays. His agility alone makes it easier for him to make plays that are just beyond Salty's capability and makes his tasks from the crouch easier than they will ever be for Salty. I don't think Lavarnway has a great arm but at least he already throws with a natural rhythm. He does not have to think about throwing in rhythm unlike the aforementioned Salty.

 

Visibly Lavs is already better as a battery mate as Salty is...clearly gives the pitchers better targets than Salty which would not be hard since Salty gives the worst targets of any supposed front line catcher I have ever seen. Lavs has a much more supple glove hand making it easier for him to receive the ball and frame pitches as he can catch the ball without jerking his glove all over creation....again something that is beyond Salty's physical capabilities.

 

Lavs has not had much success at the plate as yet at the major league level which is why the Reddick comment is relevant. The Sox NEVER simply determine that there are often guys who they have had faith in....have confidence in....have invested in that do not finally bloom until they gets the job....that is the only difference between Riddick/Oakland and Riddick/Boston and it makes no sense if what you have already is Salty. That is particularly true when LL himself has already anointed this as a bridge year. Bridge to what....at this rate. Is this what bridge means to the Red Sox.....you bring in a bunch of broken down, on the mend vets without letting one single guy in the system move up including Lavs! Fine I can take the broken down vets but I can't take another year of Salty.

 

Why isn't Salty down there in the minors since he is less developed as a catcher than even Lavs......why because its the Red Sox, the idiots that suckered themselves into thinking they were going to turn Salty into a catcher in what three years...four years....any number of years! Anybody who thinks Salty is going to overcome his liabilities in one more year is drinking the same tonic that the Sox were drinking when they signed him. The optics are better that this team is actually going someplace this season if Salty, the catcher of residence in the Red Sox system remains the catcher this season and because of the potential of another 25 HR performance.... and we wonder why we can only generate two championships in a zillion years.

 

For the record.....Tek was NEVER a good defensive catcher. Tek was a fantastic handler of pitchers.....he was a terrific battery mate but he was never more than adequate as a defensive catcher and later in his career turned into a terrible defensive catcher. So Tek did not turn into a good defensive catcher in five years, ten years or one hundred years. Salty is neither a good battery mate nor is he a good defensive catcher. Lavs is already better in both categories though not fully developed in either.

 

All Salty has to recommend him is those 25 home runs....as I have often said before....only in Boston!

 

Terrific post Jung.....and I couldn't agree with you more. We have some colleagues who takes a different position on that with varying degrees of accuracy and one who is completely off the wall. What they don't mention is that when Lavarnway was called up last season he WAS NOT allowed to claim the spot for the duration of our miserable season but was jerked in and out of the lineup at will. You can't show much under those circumstances, and those who say that Saltalamacchia is a better catcher than Ryan need to either get their eyes checked and apply for a new brain. The fact is the Braves were seriously considering moving Salty to first base because of his catching deficiecies while the Rangers simply gave up on the guy. This s*** with Salty has been going on and on for five years now and the guy still can't call a game right, still cannot get on base with any regularity, still has a rag arm and still can't handle a pitching staff.

 

I also want to remind those who make snap judgments about a young player who remember what happened to Pedroia when he was called up in August of 2006. He was jerked in and out of the lineup too, and he wound up hitting only a paltry 191. When he was told the job was his around May of 2007 he took off. Lavarnway hit over 30 homers in AA in 2011 and showed good power and improvement at Pawtucket last season despite what one out of touch poster still believes. If we are not going anywhere this season why not give Lavarnway a shot and see what he can do. We already know what Salty can do and especially what he cannot do, and he is not our catcher down the road. As you said, only on the Red Sox---stupidity carried to the Nth power.

[mvp 78]

Good catch 07...getting lazy in my old age.

 

No, you make that mistake every time. Your 1,000+ word posts are often filled with so many errors and weirdly constructed sentences, that it's hard to get through them.

 

I'd suggest rereading your massive posts prior to submitting. You'd catch a lot of small stuff.

[Dojji]

OK so what supports your argument that Lavs will not continue to develop if he is playing up here?

 

The fact that he's more likely to get reps in a meaningful development context if he is not also asked to carry the team? The fact that he 'll be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them in Pawtucket, that if he made the same mistakes in Boston would get him benched?

 

Jung, I refuse to believe you are as naive as this. The question at its core is very simple. Is Lavarnway ready to be a big league starting catcher? I say no. You say you don't care one way or another as long as he slightly outperforms the worst starting catcher in the big leagues, who happens to be on our team.

 

The important note to bear in mind here is that no one is actually saying yes, that Lavarnway is ready to start.

 

I find that telling.

 

NO one is actually saying that they're perfectly fine with a reprise of last year's version of Salty. Some of us are willing to point out the strengths that go with his weaknesses and leave him a slightly-over-replacement value catcher but that's as far as it goes. Given the chance to add an average to above average starting C to the team for a reasonable price, not one person here would turn that down because Salty.

 

But you're engaging in a very common logical fallacy here.

Plays it for laughs, but it gets the point across I think.

 

My odd taste in television notwithstanding, there's some very viable arguments against the move you're proposing, starting with the fact that there's no real need to rush into doing it that way. Whatever minor upgrade Lavarnway currently presents over Salty is countered in two fronts by significant opportunity costs. The whole idea is impractical, born more out of frustration with Salty than any realistic analysis of our 3 catchers. And quite frankly, it's the nature of this kind of problem that the baseball season will sort it out for us and give us our answer, through attrition most likely, at some point down the line, without having to get cute or creative.

 

I still wouldn't bet money that our next starting catcher is currently in system. Catching prospects are an utter crapshoot. Remember how the Rangers had an embarrassment of riches there with Teagarden, Ramirez and Salty? No one saw it coming when 3 years later they had to trade for Napoli, did they? You can't assume anything with these kids.

[jung]

Don't put words in my mouth or my keyboard Doj. I did not say I don't care one way or the other. I wrote that there is adequate evidence to me that bringing him up now may actually be the key that unlocks his full potential at the plate ala' other players that did not flourish until they actually got the ML job. I wrote that in this particular instance, I did not think the player in question would lose either time or quality of development here as opposed to Pawtucket. Further my position has been that IMO, the downside risk to player, team and season are acceptable given the potential gain.

 

That is a far cry from "I don't care one way or the other".

 

Butler is going to ST. Maybe he gets into a televised game.

[wyo-sox]

I don't care about typo's. I'm the master of them. But considering you were discussing turning down Harvard because it was "to limited" instead of "too limited" made me lol

 

The to vs. too usage is a personal matter of constant shame for me, I'm just a little offended you brought it up. My wife at home and Sgt. at work both often scream at my misuse of them. When the day comes that I rule the world my first act of power will be to do away all together with the word "too" and force everyone to use strictly "to". I will still allow"two" as I see some value in it.

[jung]

I take your point wyo. Not proud of the fact that at least informally, my too/to rules are crumbling to dust. I have to check myself in formal writing to catch the too rule for "very". Both formally and informally, the too rule for "also" still sticks. So, NO I don't make that mistake every time even informally.

 

Wish I could say that my too/to rules were the only things crumbling to dust. Would be a lie though.

 

I try to keep it informal here and even use colloquialism just for that purpose and in part to make it obvious that I am just hammerin' along. It is a discussion forum about baseball for crying out loud.

 

Web sites, facebook pages, all of it really exists on two polar opposites. There is a massive amount of factual information...for the most part accurate and a massive amount of opinion with very little in between and so far, societally we have just not gotten the hang of it yet. Unfortunately the truly factual information exists on a level something like metric conversion and is really not much better than that.

 

Some of us take it wayyyy too seriously especially in this country. We crucify people for what they post on their that is "their" Facebook pages. Wrong platform to take that seriously, IMO. Criticism may be fine in some instances... but as we all surely know....we are crucifying people for what they post up there or for what ends up on Twitter. We are firing people...taking their livelihoods away for what ends up on a Facebook page or on Twitter.

 

People feel free to ripe each other to shreds mainly because of the anonymity that a forum or web site allows and consider that just fine. However we tar and feather somebody for letting a bit of political incorrectness slip. Its all ********.

 

I needed some information quickly regarding the need for some immediate first aid for one of our pets over the holidays. I figured I knew what to do but at the same time was not willing to trust it with the internet just a few mouse clicks away. I found information from qualified Vets that was all over the map. The "professional" opinions offered were so disparate one to the next that I simply decided to trust my own original judgement about what to do. I could have done almost anything within reason and would have found a "professional" opinion that would support it.

 

Until and unless we finally get security protocols that are meaningful and that bring about changes in the Internet that will flow downstream from there it is little better than a digital playground. I keep thinking we are almost there and then the next instant get the uneasy feeling that we are only one hack away from another really embarrassing setback. Take it more seriously if you must but don't expect me to take you too seriously if you do.

[wyo-sox]

My last post was 100% sarcastic, just for the record.

[BSN07]

The to vs. too usage is a personal matter of constant shame for me, I'm just a little offended you brought it up. My wife at home and Sgt. at work both often scream at my misuse of them. When the day comes that I rule the world my first act of power will be to do away all together with the word "too" and force everyone to use strictly "to". I will still allow"two" as I see some value in it.

 

I have the same problem with there, their, they're. Learning a new language has completely screwed my English grammar and spelling

[Dojji]

Don't put words in my mouth or my keyboard Doj. I did not say I don't care one way or the other. I wrote that there is adequate evidence to me that bringing him up now may actually be the key that unlocks his full potential at the plate ala' other players that did not flourish until they actually got the ML job. I wrote that in this particular instance, I did not think the player in question would lose either time or quality of development here as opposed to Pawtucket. Further my position has been that IMO, the downside risk to player, team and season are acceptable given the potential gain.

 

That is a far cry from "I don't care one way or the other".

 

Not in the context of the question I was actually asking, it isn't. You don't care what his present skillset looks like because you're taking it on complete faith that he'll win the playing time he needs to continue to improve at the big league level.

 

You're presuming, in other words, that he is already more than good enough as a starting catcher to hold off any push by David Ross for more playing time. I'm not nearly sold on that proposition, and more to the point, the team has made it clear that THEY are not sold on it.

 

Besides which, philosophically, I'm of the school that says you never just hand a ballplayer playing time. Make 'em earn it. THe hard way, if possible. Whatever you have to do to make a young player win out at his position rather than just accepting it as his birthright, do that thing, and you'll get a better ballplayer at the end of the day.

[SoxSport]

Last year was a dysfunctional year for the Red Sox. It was a year in which the manager had almost no support in the organization, which rebelled at the way he was chosen.

 

Now, I ask you, is that the right climate to be bringing up prospects and expecting them to produce? I'm thinking about Lav and Iggy. The talk is Valentine wanted both to stick with the team, but was overruled by the FO. They both went to Pawtucket where they did pretty well. Both disappointed when they were recalled to Boston later in the year. Neither hit a lick. And Lav was expected to hit. Iggy is a marginal hitter, anyways, but he was completely useless with the bat.

 

Considering that most of the team, including a lot of veterans, underperformed last year--especially after the big salary dump, you have to maybe excuse the weak showing of Lav and Iggy. They'll surely get another shot in ST/AAA this year in a better climate.

 

The remarkable thing is Middlebrooks did so well last year considering the distractions. That's a good sign for him. Though he missed the last part of the season due to injury, when the team basically quit. The injury may have been a boon for him.

[Palodios]

Henry said the Red Sox may not be done making moves to improve the team, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reports (on Twitter).

 

Not sure what this is about... not many players left on the board.

[a700hitter]

Henry emphatically told reporters that he’s not selling the team, Peter Abraham of the Boston Globe reports (on Twitter).

Where there is smoke there is usually fire. It seems like this question is coming up a lot lately.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Not sure what this is about... not many players left on the board.

 

Reports say Henry has lurked talksox.com and sees many people are upset having Salty on the team. Henry is trying very hard to get Salty to win over the fans in Boston. He's currently working on getting him to play frisbee with the fans, sources say.

 

 

.....or we're trying to trade someone. One of the two.

[a700hitter]

Reports say Henry has lurked talksox.com and sees many people are upset having Salty on the team. Henry is trying very hard to get Salty to win over the fans in Boston. He's currently working on getting him to play frisbee with the fans, sources say.

 

 

.....or we're trying to trade someone. One of the two.

^ We need to send our TalkSox hitman SFF for the frisbee.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

He was suppose to be one of the "fans"

[jacksonianmarch]

Last year was a dysfunctional year for the Red Sox. It was a year in which the manager had almost no support in the organization, which rebelled at the way he was chosen.

 

Now, I ask you, is that the right climate to be bringing up prospects and expecting them to produce? I'm thinking about Lav and Iggy. The talk is Valentine wanted both to stick with the team, but was overruled by the FO. They both went to Pawtucket where they did pretty well. Both disappointed when they were recalled to Boston later in the year. Neither hit a lick. And Lav was expected to hit. Iggy is a marginal hitter, anyways, but he was completely useless with the bat.

 

Considering that most of the team, including a lot of veterans, underperformed last year--especially after the big salary dump, you have to maybe excuse the weak showing of Lav and Iggy. They'll surely get another shot in ST/AAA this year in a better climate.

 

The remarkable thing is Middlebrooks did so well last year considering the distractions. That's a good sign for him. Though he missed the last part of the season due to injury, when the team basically quit. The injury may have been a boon for him.

 

I think the club's tumultuos nature actually helped the rookies, to be totally honest. Who were the guys who were pissed with Valentine? It was typically the veterans who thought he was undermining them. Valentine went out of his way to embrace the rookies, and made their job a little easier. Hence why Middlebrooks and Doubront were able to blossom. But what did that also mean? That Youkilis and DiceK were set aside in contract yrs and were undermined by a lack of "committment" comment from Bobby.