Report: Gonzo, Sox blast Bobby V to Owners

[a700hitter]

The organization has let this team deteriorate into a Major League- type caricature resembling the bumbling fools in the movie.

[Emmz]

The difference is whether they play together or not....the successful teams of the past with known issues between the players or between players and management played together....played for each other......this "team" has not shown any evidence of being able to play together or for each other across two managers and two seasons....two managers as different as they could be I might add.

 

Reggie Jackson and Billy Martin hated each other but that team played together. Nobody on this Red Sox team knows how to lead or how to follow.

 

Or maybe they just don't have very good pitching. Maybe the starting rotation is so bad that the best offense in baseball is two games under .500 because they don't give us a chance. Oh, wait, that's exactly what's happening.

 

MINDf***.

[ibot2much]

So you don't think that caring about the journeymen's and scrub's opinions on the management/FO is a waste of time?

 

I would not disagree with you that there are levels on status among the players.....but there is the line that I found interesting:

 

"The perception that V. is being scapegoated unfairly to divert attention from medicore performances by some star players exists among some players....

 

They may be nobodies, but they apparently don't like what they see going on with the stars. And that is not a "united" team nor "unanimous" opinions.

[Emmz]

They are playing now exactly as they played in September of last year....just happened earlier this year. In fact people other than myself have been saying that for weeks now.

 

No they aren't, they've just been mediocre, and unable to get on any streak this season. They win 4 or 5 straight and then get swept next time Beckett and Lester pitch, and the offense doesn't support whoever follows.

 

This team is an ace and another reliable starter away from being in the hunt. We didn't make the moves we needed to make.

[a700hitter]

Say what you will about last season' date=' but I watched all the games then and watched all of them now. It's not quantifiable, I know, but they didn't look nearly as disinterested in September 2011 as they do now. Then, they looked like they were getting pissed off more and more every time they made mistakes or lost. Now, they just look like "eh, whatever".[/quote']Playing under .500 for the last 5 1/2 months of baseball since September 1, 2011 will do that. Are you as interested as you were last September? I'm not. In my case it is not because of Valentine.

[jung]

That is very true 700. Management could have nipped this in the bud the very first time V tried to run this team the way he wanted to run it. As I have said many times here....if they wanted V to tone down his act all management had to do was tell him that right at the start. Clearly V was capable of it as he toned down his act as soon as he realized he was being left hung out to dry. All they had to do was tell him the plan. Instead they let him step into the very land mine that you would have guess he would have stepped into and then just left him lay there and bleed.

 

While I firmly believe they hired V for all the wrong reasons, they could have probably gotten what they wanted out of V if they had just set expectations for him. Upper management has created this mess mainly by misjudging how far the players would be willing to go to blow the team apart to get their way. They may well have thought that at the least the players would have played for each other.....that was a huge misread.

[Youk Of The Nation]

"Star players" and "some players" are the key words there. That sounds to me like the "Star Players" are guys like Pedroia, Lester, Gonzalez, et cetera, and the "some players" are guys who probably won't even be with the team next season.

 

As for Valentine being scapegoated, he hasn't made it easy on himself with the decisions he has made. For one, the article mentions leaving Lester in to give up 11 runs. Yeah, Lester shouldn't have given up 11 runs, but pitchers pitch badly sometimes. Even Francona would have taken him out around 7. Any manager would. Valentine has proven all season that he can't manage this team and it's obvious from all of these reports that MOST of the players think that too.

[Emmz]

I would not disagree with you that there are levels on status among the players.....but there is the line that I found interesting:

 

"The perception that V. is being scapegoated unfairly to divert attention from medicore performances by some star players exists among some players....

 

They may be nobodies, but they apparently don't like what they see doing on with the stars. And that is not a "united" team nor "unanimous" opinions.

 

Yeah, and that's probably as true as anything, but the story is very clear that the two guys seen as leaders of the team have lost respect for V. I don't think it impacts the record by much regardless if they don't like him or not.

[jacksonianmarch]

The takeaway here is that there are many rifts within the club. There's a rift in the FO, a rift within the ranks of the players and a rift between the players and Bobby V.

[jung]

Everybody acknowledges that the biggest issue on this team is the starting pitching...regardless of that they still do not play as a team. As for playing this year like last....look at the at bats from the end of last year and tell me again they don't look just like many of the at bats this year.....is there any recognizable offensive intent other than trying to mash the ball? No....was there any intent you could discern other than trying to mash late last year....No

 

Did they turn impatient last year.....swinging at bad pitches much more than they had at any time earlier in the season?...they most certainly did. Has that not been an issue this year as well....it most certainly has.

[Youk Of The Nation]

The takeaway here is that there are many rifts within the club. There's a rift in the FO' date=' a rift within the ranks of the players and a rift between the players and Bobby V.[/quote']

 

Thank you for that informative summary. I was floundering as to the meaning of any of this until your insight paved the way to my enlightenment.

 

I am astounded at how much important and heretofore unknown information you managed to convey in such a brief statement. Truly, you are one of the finest wordsmiths of our generation.

[Emmz]

Playing under .500 for the last 5 1/2 months of baseball since September 1' date=' 2011 will do that. Are you as interested as you were last September? I'm not. In my case it is not because of Valentine.[/quote']

 

It's because they're not making the playoffs. It doesn't have much to do with V, but if you lose respect for your boss, you feel like you'd quit if it weren't for the money. You feel less driven to work your ass off.

 

This team still makes it if their top two starters are as good as they're supposed to be.

[a700hitter]

No they aren't, they've just been mediocre, and unable to get on any streak this season. They win 4 or 5 straight and then get swept next time Beckett and Lester pitch, and the offense doesn't support whoever follows.

 

This team is an ace and another reliable starter away from being in the hunt. We didn't make the moves we needed to make.

Yep, and that is not Bobby V's fault. He had to know that his pitching sucked, but he stayed loyal to the party line saying time after time that he liked his pitching. The players are surely scapegoating Bobby V. This team is where it is, as you stated, because of the starting pitching. That's it, pure and simple. If the 2 whiners want to complain to someone, maybe one of them should walk to the mound and tell Lester to get his head out of his ass the next time he starts bitching at an ump or remind Doubront that he is a f***ing rookie when he stomps around the mound like a petulant child. If it had no effect at least it would be placing the responsibility in the right place. It's not Bobby V taking major shits on the mound game after game.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Hah, if anything it just shows that the team is united. You seriously think Pedroia's a prima-donna? You're one of those guys who got all bent out of shape over beer and chicken.

 

When you lose respect for your coach, it's impossible to play for them. How did they run Francona out? Last I checked he was fired along with Theo, and I never heard jack s*** of substance that said the players no longer wanted to play for him.

 

United? It says right in the article some players didn't even show up. That's not being united. And Pedroia is a prima-donna.

 

 

And you never heard anything of substance that said the players didn't want to play for Francona? He himself said he couldn't get through to players and he lost control of them... Poeple don't act like that when they work for someone they respect. They quit on him. That's basically the same as running him out of town.

[jung]

They are not making the playoffs because their starting pitching has sucked. Beckett and Lester are simply the worst examples on a rotation that was doomed from the start. Beyond the starting pitching their inability to mount a cohesive offense has cost them to many games. They go from scoring double digits (in games where they are allowed to mash) to can hardly squeeze out a run if they tried.

[Bellhorn04]

What about Francona's own comments about losing control of the team last year?

[SemperFi Sox]

Thank you for that informative summary. I was floundering as to the meaning of any of this until your insight paved the way to my enlightenment.

 

I am astounded at how much important and heretofore unknown information you managed to convey in such a brief statement. Truly, you are one of the finest wordsmiths of our generation.

 

LMAO

 

 

Let's go Patriots...clap clap clap

[Brennan]

United? It says right in the article some players didn't even show up. That's not being united. And Pedroia is a prima-donna.

 

 

And you never heard anything of substance that said the players didn't want to play for Francona? He himself said he couldn't get through to players and he lost control of them... Poeple don't act like that when they work for someone they respect. They quit on him. That's basically the same as running him out of town.

 

 

 

This.

 

Hell, what's the argument about? It's all right there in print. Why anyone would want to make stuff up to defend any of these billion dollar babies is beyond me. I just walked in from busting my ass all day for a few hundred dollars, where's the "complaint" department? I'll tell you who gets screwed in the end.. you and I, the paying fans.

[jung]

Actually I misspoke earlier...Beckett and Lester are not the worst examples of the Sox starting pitching this year....Bard is. He did not get through half the season before falling apart.....and the answer for Bard was who...dice...Cook...please...or was is Morales coming in to save the day....or is it rookie Felix currently resting as you might expect for any rookie not accustomed to innings. The Sox had no plan at all for starting pitching this year and can thank their lucky stars that Buch has pulled it together. Laying this mess of a rotation and this mess of a season entirely at the feet of Beckett and Lester is laughable. For his part Lester has left 8 games this year not involved in the decision. Who lost those games....the ghost of Lester?

[SCM33]

I mean, I knew this team would be an epic disaster.......I knew it from day one.

 

 

.......they are embarrassing now. Im embarrassed to root for this team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I just hope every single one of the players tells the media to go f*** themselves and stops giving them anything to write about.

 

All the media does is dig and dig and dig for s*** on the Sox. At this point, I would just say "No media in the clubhouse and players are no longer giving interviews". Maybe then it won't be ******** story after ******** story all year.

[jacksonianmarch]

It wasnt a ******** story SFF, Cherington confirmed it

[SoxFanForsyth]

United? It says right in the article some players didn't even show up. That's not being united. And Pedroia is a prima-donna.

 

 

And you never heard anything of substance that said the players didn't want to play for Francona? He himself said he couldn't get through to players and he lost control of them... Poeple don't act like that when they work for someone they respect. They quit on him. That's basically the same as running him out of town.

 

You have a very weird definition of what a primma donna is.

 

If there was ever a person who was the exact opposite of a primma donna, it's Dustin Pedroia. When you think of a primma donna, you think of Manny Ramirez. Someone who marches to the beat of his own drum, hustles when he wants to hustle, works when he wants to work.

 

How does that, in any way, define Pedroia?? Because he is sticking up for his teammates? Because he was the 1st one in the clubhouse at Patriots day and didn't read the comments about Youkilis but was bombarded by reporters BECAUSE he was the 1st to the yard because he always wants to get extra work in? That's why he's a primma donna?? Come on man. That's crazy.

[jung]

What about Francona's own comments about losing control of the team last year?

 

For those with selective memory...Bell is correct....what the hell do you people think Tito was talking about anyway? This team has quit on two completely different managers in two separate years....they just quit on V earlier this year than they quit on Tito and for all his cribbage playing...it sure as hell did not look like Pedey did anything to rally the troops last year and Tito did not qualify his comments about not being able to reach the players and get the desired result out of them.

 

I would defy anybody to look at the bulk of those at bats in September of last year and claim they are markedly different from may of the at bats we have seen this year as well. The only difference between these two years ultimately will be that we will be treated to the results when you play an entire year like this (the AL East Basement) as opposed to what happens when you play like this for a period shorter than a year (out of the post season).

[SCM33]

You have a very weird definition of what a primma donna is.

 

If there was ever a person who was the exact opposite of a primma donna, it's Dustin Pedroia. When you think of a primma donna, you think of Manny Ramirez. Someone who marches to the beat of his own drum, hustles when he wants to hustle, works when he wants to work.

 

How does that, in any way, define Pedroia?? Because he is sticking up for his teammates? Because he was the 1st one in the clubhouse at Patriots day and didn't read the comments about Youkilis but was bombarded by reporters BECAUSE he was the 1st to the yard because he always wants to get extra work in? That's why he's a primma donna?? Come on man. That's crazy.

 

 

SFF, are you really going to defend them?????

 

After all the ******** that has happened in the last year? You are really going to defend this piece of s*** baseball team?

 

Keep the faith man, keep buying bricks and coffee table books.....keep buying those monster seats and jerseys......everything is a-ok.

 

Wake up.

[SoxFanForsyth]

It wasnt a ******** story SFF' date=' Cherington confirmed it[/quote']

 

He said they had a meeting. They have roundtable discussions all the time. The text message from Gonzo wasn't confirmed, nor was the temperament of the discussion. And, the report that some people were saying they didn't want to play for Valentine was certainly not confirmed.

 

All Cherington confirmed was that there was a meeting so that some people could get s*** off their chests.

 

And if you honestly believe that this is the only organization that does this, or that the Yankees haven't had multiple meetings exactly like this one during this season, then you're just delusional. It happens with every organization, no matter what profession there is.

 

And I was also talking about all the other stories, Buchholz going to the party in Connecticut, Lackey drinking beer in the visitors clubhouse after the game, etc. This has been such a ******** season, not just because of the teams play, but also because it's become such a cut-throat, who has a story about the Red Sox media. It wasn't even like this last year. Then Bob Hohler gets his piece out about Francona, the piece comes out about beer and chicken, the story about Youkilis, and then all of a sudden everyone wants a piece of the pie, so people just start spitting out stories without any confirmation (see: Lackey drinking in clubhouse).

 

It's just annoying as hell. The media is like a bunch of freaking maggots, that's all they are.

[SoxFanForsyth]

SFF, are you really going to defend them?????

 

After all the ******** that has happened in the last year? You are really going to defend this piece of s*** baseball team?

 

Keep the faith man, keep buying bricks and coffee table books.....keep buying those monster seats and jerseys......everything is a-ok.

 

Wake up.

 

Them? Or Pedroia?

 

I'm not defending anyone from underperforming. That's all I care about. There's been a ton of underperformance this season.

 

The rest of the stuff, nobody knows whether it's true, or what parts are true, or whether the stories have been manipulated to read in a different way than the events actually occurred. I've been burnt, and I know a ton of other people who have been burnt, by making assumptions, so I assume nothing. You can hate this team all you want, but absolutely, positively nobody knows anything about what happens inside that clubhouse. So I don't give a s*** about what the public perception is on the team because it's all ********. The only thing that the public knows is what the media digs up, and 90% of the time it's borderline fabricated.

[Elktonnick]

All this proves is that nothing has changed since last September. These players have an inflated sense of entitlement. The way I read the whole incident is that they objected to Lester being held accountable and forced to face the consequences for his performance or lack thereof. That's why this team is so unlikeable.

As for Pedroia he may be a hustler but he acts like an immature spoiled child and he isn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

[jung]

All the Sox as a "team" had to do to make all that media s*** go away was win. They didn't and they haven't. They may not like it but that is the way it is. Our poor abused cherub players play like s*** and until they stop they are likely to end up with even more media ******** to deal with.

[SCM33]

Them? Or Pedroia?

 

I'm not defending anyone from underperforming. That's all I care about. There's been a ton of underperformance this season.

 

The rest of the stuff, nobody knows whether it's true, or what parts are true, or whether the stories have been manipulated to read in a different way than the events actually occurred. I've been burnt, and I know a ton of other people who have been burnt, by making assumptions, so I assume nothing. You can hate this team all you want, but absolutely, positively nobody knows anything about what happens inside that clubhouse. So I don't give a s*** about what the public perception is on the team because it's all ********. The only thing that the public knows is what the media digs up, and 90% of the time it's borderline fabricated.

 

They are a disaster.

 

Far too many of these stories come out far too often. Where this is smoke there is fire. Don't be so blind.

 

In addition, I defended Pedroia quite a bit earlier this year and fought with the sawxhead guys about it (pumpsie most often I believe). Pedroia has since added himself to the list of players that this team needs to flush out.