Papi's Latest Rant

[SoxSport]

Ortiz latest rant reminds me of the country club red sox of the Yawkey years. It's all about him. The funny part he actually is going to make more money this way then he would have had he gotten the deal he wanted originally. Despite his numbers' date=' Ortiz is what is wrong with the current Red Sox. As far as I am concerned he is now expendable.[/quote']

 

I think you could say that for the team in general--at least at the end of last year. Complacency set in with that team, and Henry hasn't really solved that problem. For one thing, the front office never got the message--except the money got turned off. The blame rests with Henry and Lucchino. There is still no fire in this team.

[ellsburyforMVP]

He sucked both those seasons--compared to his salary and previous years. Couldn't hit LHP--but Tito stuck with him as he usual did for veterans. At times, he was pathetic. Forget the power stats--his OPS and BA were way down. They did him a favor sticking with him when it looked like he was over the hill. On top of that, he has the steroids cloud hanging over him.

So now the guy comes back, to his credit, but he thinks he's king sh*t. At 36, he is not.

 

Where would you put him at in the MVP race, at this point? I've got him at a very close 2nd to Hamilton

2nd in runs scored,slg% and ops

5th in hr/obp and doubles

6th in walks

8th in RBI

13th in average

15th in hits."........ And we all know, Papi usually hits better the 2nd half of the season

 

Let him think whatever he wants, without Ortiz this year...we would have no chance in hell at the playoffs

[FredLynn]

I have a feeling your an idiot..... And no, that's not an "attack" against you, just this statement and EVERY other statement you have about Ortiz... I could honestly fill up 3 pages of a thread about you talking about the sox getting rid of Ortiz... Seriously guy, you have a hard-on about us trading him? Could it possibly be that in a way, even in your Yankee brain, that you realize this team could actually get their s*** together and actually cause problems for your Yankees?

 

Because honestly....... I don't see why else you would be so adamant that we trade our best player? You've been harping on for 3 weeks about us getting rid of Ortiz :dunno::dunno:

 

Its actually pretty simple: if you still hold out hope for this year's run at a ring, it would be foolish to trade away your best offensive player. If you think that this year is a lost cause already, your best offensive player is a great chip with which to plan for the future, given his age and attitude problems.

[Divinity]

Because honestly....... I don't see why else you would be so adamant that we trade our best player?

 

 

Ortiz is better than Gonzalez?

 

http://h8.abload.de/img/jordanlaughing5stj.gif

[ellsburyforMVP]

Ortiz is better than Gonzalez?

 

http://h8.abload.de/img/jordanlaughing5stj.gif

 

Ummmm at this point in this season? Pretty simple....hell yes:dunno:

[ellsburyforMVP]

You can't take their entire body of work, and then say Gonzalez is better? This year, Ortiz is head and shoulders better than gonzo.... And even as far as their career goes, Gonzo has 200 less hr's and 700 less RBI? While only hitting .292 to Ortiz's .284??

[Divinity]

Ummmm at this point in this season? Pretty simple....hell yes:dunno:

 

 

Ortiz is a DH, while Gonzalez is a gold glove first basemen, try putting Ortiz back at 1B and see how well he does.

[Cocos Disciples]

And even as far as their career goes' date=' Gonzo has 200 less hr's and 700 less RBI? [/quote']

 

Obviously Ortiz > Gonzalez this year, but how can you honestly use these metrics to make that point? Counting stats for a guy who has played 16 years versus a guy who has played 9 years?

[ellsburyforMVP]

Obviously Ortiz > Gonzalez this year' date=' but how can you honestly use these metrics to make that point? Counting stats for a guy who has played 16 years versus a guy who has played 9 years?[/quote']

 

I understand that fully, was just trying to point out that in no way shape or form is gonzo better this year, and in actuality the only things that separate them for their careers is defense and gonzo hits for a higher average

 

 

Just as Ortiz's career numbers are obviously more than gonzo's because of age, but you also can't "just assume" gonzo is going to reach those numbers in his career ( I'm sure he will, just saying ) he's the one that said gonzo was better, just trying to show him his comment was baseless

[SCM33]

Papi bitches about the contracts they have handed out, but seems not to notice they ones they haven't. Where are Pedro, Damon, Lowe, Beltre and Papelbon now? They will occasionally pay big money to add a piece to the team, but they rarely pay big money to keep a piece on the team.

 

I hate to even bring it up, but would anyone be shocked if it turned out Ortiz had been juicing this whole time? Yes, they do testing, but they generally just catch people for masking agents, not the drugs themselves... which implies to me that the masking agents probably work. Why else would people use them?

 

It sure looked like his career had come to a grinding halt about 2 years ago, and suddenly he's hitting comparably to the best players in the league--in multiple contract years. He's getting upset that the Red Sox apparently aren't falling for the bait, and I wouldn't be shocked if the FO is waiting for the other shoe to drop: Ortiz gets contract, Ortiz stops enhancing his performance, Ortiz becomes the player who was a continuation of 2009 and who is in his late 30s.

 

I really like Papi, but once you get caught once it really opens the door to speculation around performance and contracts. What would you do for a $14m, multi-year contract?

 

I would not be shocked if he were juicing, and I will not be upset if he doesn't return next year.

 

Crawford - $20M/yr

Gonzalez - $22M/yr

Lackey - $16M/yr

Beckett - $17M/yr

 

There's four players in the clubhouse making more than him and contributing less than him. So yeah, I think he has a legit gripe.

 

He has NOTHING to gripe about. They offered arbitration, he ACCEPTED it, then they NEGOTIATED a price. If he didn't like it, he shouldn't have accepted arbitration.

 

Ortiz is a DH' date=' while Gonzalez is a gold glove first basemen, try putting Ortiz back at 1B and see how well he does.[/quote']

 

Don't make an argument against Ortiz as a 1B. People around here think that because he doesn't fall on his face during the 5 games a year he plays at 1B means hes good at it.

[ellsburyforMVP]

I don't think anyone believe's that Ortiz would be a good defensive option.... Could he of managed throughout his career if he had to play a position , yeah, would be an average defensive 1b at best, but that would of been sevicable..

 

And I'm assuming he would of gotten a little better over time

[SCM33]

I don't think anyone believe's that Ortiz would be a good defensive option.... Could he of managed throughout his career if he had to play a position , yeah, would be an average defensive 1b at best, but that would of been sevicable..

 

And I'm assuming he would of gotten a little better over time

 

 

.....and again, Kevin Millar, who was a OF with the Marlins, was named the starting 1B'man for the Redsox over Ortiz, even though Millar looked pretty un-athletic and immobile over there at times.

 

They chose an OF from the Marlins to play 1B over Ortiz, because Ortiz was not very good.

 

Ortiz also backed up Ron Coomer as a youngster in MIN before Mientkiewicz. At 24 he was already a fulltime DH.

[Divinity]

I understand that fully, was just trying to point out that in no way shape or form is gonzo better this year, and in actuality the only things that separate them for their careers is defense and gonzo hits for a higher average

 

 

Just as Ortiz's career numbers are obviously more than gonzo's because of age, but you also can't "just assume" gonzo is going to reach those numbers in his career ( I'm sure he will, just saying ) he's the one that said gonzo was better, just trying to show him his comment was baseless

 

I thought you were talking about the best player on this team as of present, I consider 30 year old Gonzalez to be the overall a better player than 36 year old Ortiz.

[SCM33]

I thought you were talking about the best player on this team as of present' date=' I consider 30 year old Gonzalez to be the overall a better player than 36 year old Ortiz.[/quote']

 

I am not so sure that Gonzalez is the better offensive player. Ortiz has pretty much always been the better offensive player.

 

Gonzalez's BEST season is only .20 off of Ortiz's AVERAGE season. Also, when everyone though Ortiz was "done", his OPS was .794. Gonzalez is at .727 right now.

 

With that said.......he is a DH who happens to carry a 1B'man glove in his bag to play catch with his son before the game. He is not a 1B'man.

[example1]

Papi got what he deserved at his age. His rant is revolting. What does he mean when he said "guys like me don't deserve to be treated that way"? Does he mean that its OK to treat others that way' date=' just not prima donna MEFIRSTS like Ortiz? Does he have any idea how selfish his rant sounds to the fans or how divisive it is right now? Even if thats what he thinks, he really ought to know when to keep his mouth shut. This will (or should) be his last year here anyway; lets make is a memorable one instead of an embarassment.[/quote']

 

Something weird is happening when I quote one of your posts, and agree with virtually everything you say. I'm not out to get Ortiz, but I'm just so sick of this money = respect thing. He's making $14.6m this year. If he were in a car crash right now and could never work another day in his life, he and his entire family and extended family would be set. He wears diamond encrusted sunglasses for crying out loud.

 

I don't care how good or valuable he is to the team, his comments come off as out of touch with reality and the situation of the world right now. He might be right, he might deserve more money or a longer contract, but his complaints are so on the margins of anything relevant to anyone that it is disgusting. How about showing people--or even just pretending--that you are primarily interested in bringing some joy to Sox fans who are having to choose between spending their money on Sox tickets and saving for their kids college fund. At least pretend like you are not completely self-centered.

[jung]

The biggest disappointment I have in baseball is that I have lived long enough to see it come full cycle from the days when players were almost forced to work under conditions of indentured servitude to the situation we have today where players now spend a goodly amount of their time positioning themselves for their next negotiation.

 

This is particularly hypocritical coming on the heels of Ortiz "leave us alone and let us play" comments. So in other words David you don't have any use for the media during the season unless you can use the media to try to make your case and posture as a means of negotiating your next contract though the media.

 

This saddens me no end. Worse than that, this seems to be something that continues to grow and grow in the number of players doing it and the number of instances and it is already to the point where I can barely stand it any longer.

 

Baseball is no longer the national pastime. Football is the National Pro team sport of choice for most now and it is not that surprising. If these guys don't watch it they are going to make themselves so damned unlikable and I mean all of them that they are going to end up killing the golden goose.

[example1]

Football is definitely #1, but baseball has an on-going popularity that is actually pretty impressive. People don't watch it nationally as they once did, but locally teams do pretty well. In other words, if my team is in the playoffs many people in my area will watch.

 

Also, what Ortiz is doing isn't really new. It's pretty well established that some players are just selfish and insensitive about the financial aspects of the game. It just hurts when it is a hero for so many.

 

I would not be disappointed at ALL if MLB were forced into a payment structure more akin to the NFL or NBA. Yes, the NBA is absurdly confusing, but non-guaranteed contracts would still be nice. I like the 6 years until FA thing, and the general structure of the arbitration system, but I hate it that teams can get roped into a $140m contract without escape. Players have too much power, in my opinion.

[The Boomer]

The biggest disappointment I have in baseball is that I have lived long enough to see it come full cycle from the days when players were almost forced to work under conditions of indentured servitude to the situation we have today where players now spend a goodly amount of their time positioning themselves for their next negotiation.

 

This is particularly hypocritical coming on the heels of Ortiz "leave us alone and let us play" comments. So in other words David you don't have any use for the media during the season unless you can use the media to try to make your case and posture as a means of negotiating your next contract though the media.

 

This saddens me no end. Worse than that, this seems to be something that continues to grow and grow in the number of players doing it and the number of instances and it is already to the point where I can barely stand it any longer.

 

Baseball is no longer the national pastime. Football is the National Pro team sport of choice for most now and it is not that surprising. If these guys don't watch it they are going to make themselves so damned unlikable and I mean all of them that they are going to end up killing the golden goose.

 

There is a non-zero chance that football as we know it won't exist in 5-10 years. As more cases of brain damage come out, the NFL, NCAA, and junior leagues have no way to further protect players and there may be rules changes that either maximize safety and impact popularity and/or drive advertisers to other sports. There will always be football in the US as long as there are advertising dollars supporting it but it may not look much like the 2011 NFL.

 

Steroids were/are a real problem for baseball, but they are in no way as central to the game as hitting is to football.

[Bellhorn04]

I've been giving Papi a pass on this stuff up till now, but enough is enough. This is incredibly selfish stuff. The team is struggling and the last thing they need is this kind of press. Save it till after the season. An apology would be a good idea.

[Elktonnick]

There is a non-zero chance that football as we know it won't exist in 5-10 years. As more cases of brain damage come out, the NFL, NCAA, and junior leagues have no way to further protect players and there may be rules changes that either maximize safety and impact popularity and/or drive advertisers to other sports. There will always be football in the US as long as there are advertising dollars supporting it but it may not look much like the 2011 NFL.

 

Steroids were/are a real problem for baseball, but they are in no way as central to the game as hitting is to football.

 

The danger to the long term survivability of football will come from the high schools. If local school authorities begin to be sued for concussion related injuries, public schools will take a second look at the sport. If the high schools begin to drop the sport because of liability issues, it can't survive at the university level.

[mvp 78]

I've been giving Papi a pass on this stuff up till now' date=' but enough is enough. This is incredibly selfish stuff. The team is struggling and the last thing they need is this kind of press. Save it till after the season. An apology would be a good idea.[/quote']

 

He's been ranting for many years now. This doesn't change anything for me. He still hasn't had a Johnny from Burger King moment, so I don't care.

[kapsis21]

He's been ranting for many years now. This doesn't change anything for me. He still hasn't had a Johnny from Burger King moment' date=' so I don't care.[/quote']

 

agree. and also the fact that when losses start to pile and you feel responsible and you are going to loose your cool at some moment, papi is never good at hiding his emotions. he is not Jason Varitek who calmly told the media to mind their business and let us play games.

loved the captain for that. the way he talked was so calm manner that media never asked him BS questions.

[jung]

There is so much money tied up in football, they will find a way via equipment improvement, rules changes and waiver releases to preserve most of what makes football popular. It has already overcome massive changes in on field brutality and has grown by leaps and bounds in the face of those changes. I suspect fans would love to see the kind of mayhem that went on within the rules of the 1960's.

[Bellhorn04]

There is so much money tied up in football' date=' they will find a way via equipment improvement, rules changes and waiver releases to preserve most of what makes football popular. It has already overcome massive changes in on field brutality and has grown by leaps and bounds in the face of those changes. I suspect fans would love to see the kind of mayhem that went on within the rules of the 1960's.[/quote']

 

A lot of fans like violence and mayhem but I think only the extreme sicko minority actually enjoys seeing a player get carted off the field with a season-ending or career-ending injury. That might seem a little paradoxical I guess. But I think it works that way in other violent sports as well.

[mvp 78]

Idk, if James Harrison was carted off, I wouldn't feel bad. Guess I'm a sicko.

[jung]

I would say that the kind of mayhem that went on in the Pro Football of the 1960's is more akin to a particularly nasty NHL contest. There are actually more guys getting carted off of NFL fields today I think because of the size and speed of the players. Even the once feared crack back block all over the field and things of that nature no longer legal probably did not account for as many season ending injuries as just the sheer size and speed of these players.

 

You have to believe that the equipment guys who can't provide the entire answer have to step up and do a better job of finding ways to absorb shock. Today's helmets for example though much better than what I wore seem hardly better relative to the actual task at hand. The same seems true for the other major pads although I guess there is some new stuff that is about to hit the gridirons that is supposed to be much better.

[Bellhorn04]

Idk' date=' if James Harrison was carted off, I wouldn't feel bad. Guess I'm a sicko.[/quote']

 

In his case I assume you feel that way because he's a dirty player who has it coming to him.

[Elktonnick]

I would say that the kind of mayhem that went on in the Pro Football of the 1960's is more akin to a particularly nasty NHL contest. There are actually more guys getting carted off of NFL fields today I think because of the size and speed of the players. Even the once feared crack back block all over the field and things of that nature no longer legal probably did not account for as many season ending injuries as just the sheer size and speed of these players.

 

You have to believe that the equipment guys who can't provide the entire answer have to step up and do a better job of finding ways to absorb shock. Today's helmets for example though much better than what I wore seem hardly better relative to the actual task at hand. The same seems true for the other major pads although I guess there is some new stuff that is about to hit the gridirons that is supposed to be much better.

 

Rugby has the "mayhem" without the injuries or concussions. One of the main reasons is no equipment. American football can only survive at its current level if the players are developed at the high school level. If that stops then college football will not be far behind. The downward spiral would follow.

[FenwayWest]

Hmmm... Ya know, after reading and hearing everyone's thoughts, I think I agree that Ortiz needs to shut up and just play... Like mentioned, out of touch with reality.... When us, the "Common folk" have to work every day to make ends meet, and buy these over-priced tickets to see these guys play... Only to have them complain that $14M isn't enough... Frustrating...

[FredLynn]

Hmmm... Ya know' date=' after reading and hearing everyone's thoughts, I think I agree that Ortiz needs to shut up and just play... Like mentioned, out of touch with reality.... When us, the "Common folk" have to work every day to make ends meet, and buy these over-priced tickets to see these guys play... Only to have them complain that $14M isn't enough... Frustrating...[/quote']

 

His attitude is now out there for everyone to see. Spoiled. Selfish. If he remains on this team there is a risk that guys like Middlebrooks and Doubront and Kalish will see this as acceptable behavior eschew a team first mentality. On the other hand if he is promptly traded for whoever we can get for him, the lesson to our future players will also be clear.