Dan Duquette...and his reign here as GM

[SCM33]

The 2004 ring had to be shared from a GM standpoint by both Duquette and Epstein. Both of those guys signed key pieces that got us a ring. Do you think we would have a ring without Manny the Mouth? Or Damon? Or Pedro? Or Lowe? Or Varitek?

Duquette built the foundation; Epstein finished the job. IMO thinking either GM was solely or even mostly responsible for building that team is short sighted.

 

I thought this whole thread would be an interesting deabte. Clearly not.

 

People forget what Duke did for this franshise when he was here. No sellout streak. Owners didnt give a s*** and he had to BEG for money to sign top FA's. He built from the scrap heap and trades, and he was great at it.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Nothing has to be shared. Duquette may have added those pieces, but he couldn't do anything with them. So he doesn't get s*** for acknowledgement.

 

This is asinine. This is like saying Rick Pitino deserves a share of the 2008 Celtics ring because he drafted Pierce.

[FredLynn]

Just the facts about Duquette. No rings, but certainly steps forward for the franchise:

 

Boston Red Sox

 

Duquette became the GM of his hometown Red Sox and built a baseball operations department which has allowed the Red Sox to be the only team in MLB to set attendance and revenue records every year since 1998.[citation needed]

 

The Red Sox went 656-574 in the 8 seasons under Duquette, setting attendance records every year after 1998 winning the AL East once and finishing 2nd behind the Yankees 5 other seasons. The Red Sox won the AL East pennant in 1995 before bowing to the Cleveland Guardians in the ALDS and made the playoffs as a Wild Card in 1998 and 1999, only to lose to the Cleveland Guardians again in the ALDS and the New York Yankees in the ALCS.

 

Under Duquette, the Red Sox made exceptional strides in improving their dismal history of poor race relations as an organization in the hiring of both coaching and administrative personnel with minority candidates. The Minor League facilities and coaching availability were upgraded at every level during his tenure, and Red Sox favorites such as Nomar Garciaparra and Kevin Youkilis were drafted into the system. Other notable draftees in his Red Sox term were future MLB shortstops David Eckstein, Adam Everett and Hanley Ramirez as well as second baseman Freddy Sanchez.

 

In 1996 Duquette signed Jamie Moyer to a free agent contract and then traded him to Seattle for outfielder Darren Bragg when manager Kevin Kennedy didn't pitch him much and Moyer expressed he didn't like playing in Boston. Despite being only 66-77 at the time of that trade, Moyer went on to win 139 games in just over 9 seasons with the Mariners and achieved over 250 wins in his career. Duquette is also famously known for his quote about Roger Clemens in which he said that "we had hoped to keep him in Boston during the twilight of his career" in 1996 after Clemens left as a free agent following a 39-40 record over his last four seasons pitching in Boston.[1] Clemens would go on to win the Cy Young Award and the pitching Triple Crown in both of the next two seasons. The free agency losses of Clemens and first baseman Mo Vaughn were major points of discontent amongst some Red Sox fans with regards to Duquette. He also did not resign Jose Canseco or Mike Greenwell. At present, Clemens remains under an indictment for lying to Congress that he used performance enhancing drugs (PED's) beginning in the period immediately following his departure from Boston to Toronto.

 

Duquette is also noted for several major acquisitions that would ultimately play a part in the Red Sox 2004 World Championship, including acquiring knuckleballer Tim Wakefield in 1995, Pedro Mart?nez in 1997 from Montreal, the 1997 trade with Seattle for both pitcher Derek Lowe and All-Star catcher Jason Varitek the free agent signings of Manny Ram?rez in 2000 and Johnny Damon in December, 2001 and the Sox traded over 35 players in Duquette's farm system to staff the team including LHP Jorge De la Rosa traded for Curt Schilling.

 

He was dismissed from his general manager post in 2002 when John W. Henry bought the team from the JRY Trust, headed by John Harrington.[2]

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Im not biased. I like what Duke did here. I like what Theo did here.

 

No, you are biased. Against Theo and against the team's current management. You're an angry little man who gets unfavorable police shifts, and you take it out on a sports team.

 

How was I reactionary when I created the thread?

 

This thread wasn't reactionary, it was just biased and incredibly stupid. You do have a long and prestigious history with reactionary ********.

 

You dont call s*** out, you troll......then I hammer back and you disappear. You are the definition of a troll.

 

If that's how you rationalize my ridiculous record against you and your dipshittery, then whatever. Chances are you need the validation more than I do.

 

....and maybe I wont go anywhere this time. It was hard to walk away from some of the guys here. Some of them I can honestly call friends. Just leaving after 7 years is tough.

 

That's a shame.

[FredLynn]

Nothing has to be shared. Duquette may have added those pieces, but he couldn't do anything with them. So he doesn't get s*** for acknowledgement.

 

This is asinine. This is like saying Rick Pitino deserves a share of the 2008 Celtics ring because he drafted Pierce.

 

We win no ring without some of the guys Duquette signed: Ramirez, Martinez, Varitek, Lowe...etc

I am no Epstein fan, but we also win no ring without what he did that year either.

[FredLynn]

OK guys, you fight this out yourselves. I am outta here.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

We win no ring without some of the guys Duquette signed: Ramirez, Martinez, Varitek, Lowe...etc

I am no Epstein fan, but we also win no ring without what he did that year either.

He took the pieces Duquette couldn't do anything with... and he did something with them. Therefore, Epstein > Duquette. Quite simple.

[SCM33]

J_E...

 

nope, not against Theo. Current management, yeah......and not that it matters, I work the shifts I choose to work, regardless its none of your business.

 

Your record against me? You run and hide. You troll....then run and hide. Its what you do.

 

I may not exactly be the most liked member, but Im almost positive I am more liked than you......but in the end, I dont care. You do.....you sit in moms basement without a job and without life experiences.

 

I left because of member like you. Unfortunately you still troll around here......so I guess we have to deal with each other. Block me if you like....

 

Otherwise, this will always continue.

[Cocos Disciples]

I remember the good old days of 23 hours ago when this thread had a real topic.

 

I suggest going back to it.

[SCM33]

I remember the good old days of 23 hours ago when this thread had a real topic.

 

I suggest going back to it.

 

Well, I created the thread.

 

Thought it had a chance to stimulate some talk about the Sox in the 2000's.

 

Its pretty clear who derailed it. I apologize that I had to defend myself because it was taken to a personal level.

[Bellhorn04]

I think both Duquette and Epstein deserve a lot of credit for the 2004 championship. Duquette tried his ass off to bring a title to Boston, I have no doubt about that. He made some brilliant moves. He just fell a couple of good moves short.

[a700hitter]

Well, I created the thread.

 

Thought it had a chance to stimulate some talk about the Sox in the 2000's.

 

Its pretty clear who derailed it. I apologize that I had to defend myself because it was taken to a personal level.

It was a good discussion. Unfortunately, it got derailed by the resident troll who know less than nothing about baseball and only contributes inflammatory posts.

 

Duke and Theo are getting fresh starts. Theo's job is much easier because his team has a large budget and he doesn't have to compete against the budgets of the Yankees and Red Sox.

 

Duke has shown an ability to rebuild and be competitive at the same time. Theo is in tear down mode in Chicago. The Cubs are losing like crazy and their isn't a single exciting player for the fans to watch. He had better start showing some significant improvement by 2013 or the fans will get restless. Right now, he has taken a last place team and made the on field product worse than he found it. We will see where the both of them are in 3 years. That will be the test.

 

I worry that Cherries is not up to the standards of Cashman, Duke or the Tampa GM. He may be out of his depth. I hope he proves me wrong.

[SoxSport]

It was a good discussion. Unfortunately, it got derailed by the resident troll who know less than nothing about baseball and only contributes inflammatory posts.

 

Duke and Theo are getting fresh starts. Theo's job is much easier because his team has a large budget and he doesn't have to compete against the budgets of the Yankees and Red Sox.

 

Duke has shown an ability to rebuild and be competitive at the same time. Theo is in tear down mode in Chicago. The Cubs are losing like crazy and their isn't a single exciting player for the fans to watch. He had better start showing some significant improvement by 2013 or the fans will get restless. Right now, he has taken a last place team and made the on field product worse than he found it. We will see where the both of them are in 3 years. That will be the test.

 

I worry that Cherries is not up to the standards of Cashman, Duke or the Tampa GM. He may be out of his depth. I hope he proves me wrong.

 

I think Duke and Theo both contributed to the 04 success.

 

I'm also concerned about Ben C and the rest of the front office. They haven't done much right so far, and most of it has been done with a view toward controlling costs.

 

Management problems usually emanate from the top, and you can point to Henry/LL as the source.

[mvp 78]

I think Duke and Theo both contributed to the 04 success.

 

I'm also concerned about Ben C and the rest of the front office. They haven't done much right so far, and most of it has been done with a view toward controlling costs.

 

Management problems usually emanate from the top, and you can point to Henry/LL as the source.

 

Ross was a good pickup. The bullpen has worked out well. Shoppach has been good. Sticking with Salty has been a good idea. Bringing up WMB was a good idea. Pods was productive. Signing Ortiz seems to have been the right call. Aviles hasn't fallen off from Scutaro's performance.

 

Guess they haven't done much right...

[kapsis21]

Ross was a good pickup. The bullpen has worked out well. Shoppach has been good. Sticking with Salty has been a good idea. Bringing up WMB was a good idea. Pods was productive. Signing Ortiz seems to have been the right call. Aviles hasn't fallen off from Scutaro's performance.

 

Guess they haven't done much right...

 

i have to say i agree with you. Ben Cherrington couldnt plan on the whole OF being injurred and add on top of that Youk injurred/not being the same guy. and add 2 best closers out of that role, add to that Melancon/Bailey out from day 1.

So i think we have to give him credit and not make him responsible for these many guys out of their starting role.

I am really happy with this team and the way they are playing, some days its a churn but given the way things have gone I think we still have a chance but they will have to play to their talent and get it done as a team.

 

GO REDSOX 2012.. aiming for the WC spot #2

[a700hitter]

Ross was a good pickup. The bullpen has worked out well. Shoppach has been good. Sticking with Salty has been a good idea. Bringing up WMB was a good idea. Pods was productive. Signing Ortiz seems to have been the right call. Aviles hasn't fallen off from Scutaro's performance.

 

Guess they haven't done much right...

Signing Ortiz was the right call, but offering him arbitration was not. They are in an unnecessary overpay situation with Ortiz. He is overpaid about 50%

[FredLynn]

Ross was a good pickup. The bullpen has worked out well. Shoppach has been good. Sticking with Salty has been a good idea. Bringing up WMB was a good idea. Pods was productive. Signing Ortiz seems to have been the right call. Aviles hasn't fallen off from Scutaro's performance.

 

Guess they haven't done much right...

 

I give a lot of the credit for how the pen turned out to Valentine and his staff. He was handed a lot of leftovers and career mediocre pitchers and somehow figured out a way to get them to accept roles that many of them had never assumed in their careers. The success of Miller, Atchison, and Padilla are prime examples. There are others.

[kapsis21]

Signing Ortiz was the right call' date=' but offering him arbitration was not. They are in an unnecessary overpay situation with Ortiz. He is overpaid about 50%[/quote']

 

disagree. check Agon, Crawford, Pujols every single one of them is overpaid. not Ortiz.

[a700hitter]

Ross was a good pickup. The bullpen has worked out well. Shoppach has been good. Sticking with Salty has been a good idea. Bringing up WMB was a good idea. Pods was productive. Signing Ortiz seems to have been the right call. Aviles hasn't fallen off from Scutaro's performance.

 

Guess they haven't done much right...

Scutaro is outperforming Avile, and he is outperforming Punto by a mile-- that is the real comparison. Punto should not be on this roster.

[kapsis21]

Scutaro is outperforming Avile' date=' and he is outperforming Punto by a mile-- that is the real comparison. Punto should not be on this roster.[/quote']

Scutaro stats

2012 Regular Season 64 255 38 71 11 3 4 18 18 21 6 2 .278 .329 .392 .721

 

Aviles stats

2012 Regular Season 66 267 35 71 17 0 8 37 9 37 8 4 .266 .287 .419 .706

 

maybe Aviles is slight bad on defense on his right side.. but he has double the amount of RBIs and HRs .. you cant be more wrong when you say Scutaro is outperforming Aviles.

[FredLynn]

Scutaro is outperforming Avile' date=' and he is outperforming Punto by a mile-- that is the real comparison. Punto should not be on this roster.[/quote']

 

You have to look at the stats to see why this team has defined mediocrity this year. We have an excellent ability to score runs; thats been the case for years for this team. But our GM has consistently failed to address the pitching problems, problems that have been known and publicly admitted for years. I think that Epstein did fine until 2008when he seemed to lose his way. Recently he admitted as much in his interview when the Sox were in Chicago. IMO he was only partially correct about his mistakes: he said that he spent too much money because he felt pressured to do something by the media and the fans. The problem is that he did the WRONG things, focusing on more offense when pitching was clearly the problem.

[Bellhorn04]

Scutaro is outperforming Avile' date=' and he is outperforming Punto by a mile-- that is the real comparison. [b']Punto should not be on this roster.[/b]

 

Why is that? Pretty well every team in baseball has a utility player like Punto on their roster. And his career stats both offensively and defensively show he's not that bad of a player.

[a700hitter]

Scutaro stats

2012 Regular Season 64 255 38 71 11 3 4 18 18 21 6 2 .278 .329 .392 .721

 

Aviles stats

2012 Regular Season 66 267 35 71 17 0 8 37 9 37 8 4 .266 .287 .419 .706

 

maybe Aviles is slight bad on defense on his right side.. but he has double the amount of RBIs and HRs .. you cant be more wrong when you say Scutaro is outperforming Aviles.

Scutaro is improving. He is very hot right now and Aviles has leveled off. Aviles' power stats are helped by Fenway.

[a700hitter]

Why is that? Pretty well every team in baseball has a utility player like Punto on their roster. And his career stats both offensively and defensively show he's not that bad of a player.

Scutaro is the better player and he has filled the utility role throughout his career. He should be the utility guy. He could amply fill in for Pedroia and Aviles. Punto is like putting a black hole in the lineup.

[Bellhorn04]

Scutaro is the better player and he has filled the utility role throughout his career. He should be the utility guy. He could amply fill in for Pedroia and Aviles. Punto is like putting a black hole in the lineup.

 

Of course the difference in salary between Scutaro and Punto is 4.5 million + the luxury tax. They said the Scutaro money was going to go toward pitching and it hasn't happened yet. If it never does happen this year then I'll have to agree with your criticism on this.

[a700hitter]

Of course the difference in salary between Scutaro and Punto is 4.5 million + the luxury tax. They said the Scutaro money was going to go toward pitching and it hasn't happened yet. If it never does happen this year then I'll have to agree with your criticism on this.

I'm not holding my breath on this. It's likely that they will be eating some of Youk's salary, so the savings on Scutaro means nothing to me as a fan. It's all background bookkeeping. None of it dictates what moves they make or don't make. They are not the KC Royals. A $5-10 million move is not an obstacle to team like the Red Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not holding my breath on this. It's likely that they will be eating some of Youk's salary' date=' so the savings on Scutaro means nothing to me as a fan. It's all background bookkeeping. None of it dictates what moves they make or don't make. They are not the KC Royals. [b']A $5-10 million move is not an obstacle to team like the Red Sox.[/b]

 

That's a point we could debate all today, I guess. I think even the Red Sox and Yankees have to draw a line somewhere called the budget limit. Sure if they really wanted to they could spend another $5-10 million, and then another $5-10 million on top of that...

[a700hitter]

That's a point we could debate all today' date=' I guess. I think even the Red Sox and Yankees have to draw a line somewhere called the budget limit. Sure if they really wanted to they could spend another $5-10 million, and then another $5-10 million on top of that...[/quote']The Scutaro salary was clearly not a critical matter to the team, because they are considering eating at least that much of Youk's salary. Of course, every business has budgets and profits and losses to contend with, but this team has more leeway than most teams. They have streams of revenue that most franchises could only dream about. If a deal is going to improve the team and enhance the franchise, they would have no trouble coming up with $5 - 10 million-- none at all. They are sitting on a billion dollar asset. $5-10 million is not a rounding error, but it is not a big expense to them.

[SoxSport]

Scutaro is playing 2B this year. Aviles is playing SS. I think they are comparable players. The biggest difference is their salaries. That's why Scutaro was traded. They saved $6 mil on the deal, which is pretty good for a 36yo now playing 2B. Aviles has shown decent power numbers for a SS. I don't knock the FO for that deal.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

It was a good discussion. Unfortunately' date=' it got derailed by the resident troll who know less than nothing about baseball and only contributes inflammatory posts.[/quote']

 

Less than nothing about baseball? Aren't you the guy who was BEGGING management to sign Carl Crawford (over Jayson Werth), and made inflammatory posts to anyone who disagreed? And then once it was done strutted around talksox antagonizing other Red Sox fans who were against the idea about it? How's that working out for you?

 

It's not my fault that the OP is over-sensitive and perceives attacks on his threads as attacks on him.

 

Theo is in tear down mode in Chicago. The Cubs are losing like crazy and their isn't a single exciting player for the fans to watch. He had better start showing some significant improvement by 2013 or the fans will get restless. Right now, he has taken a last place team and made the on field product worse than he found it. We will see where the both of them are in 3 years. That will be the test.

 

Are you s***ing me? That team had nowhere to go but down. Their feeble repeated attempts at getting back to contention the past several years only delayed the inevitable and left the team in purgatory. Theo's doing the right thing.

 

I don't have much experience with Cubs fans, but I doubt they feel half as entitled as you people do. Nobody's gonna flip s*** if they're not contenders in 2013. Because they realize that rebuilding takes time, and championships aren't easy to get, and you can't just slap a stale product together and expect it to go anywhere.