The Youkilis Delusion?

[tackle-bag]

Hi all,

 

I'm a relatively new Sox fan, having followed the team for just under 2 years now. In that time, I've come to the conclusion that Kevin Youkilis is by some distance the Sox' most over-rated player. This isn't trolling, I'm just wondering whether there's something that I'm missing. As I see it:-

 

- His batting average is just that, average (14th among players on the active roster this year, 11th last season).

- He doesn't hit many homers for a big guy.

- He's not a big game player. Any time he has a chance to turn a game, it seems to me that he does something stupid like strike out swinging at a ball in the dirt. Tonight's performance with the bases loaded is a classic example.

- His technique is ridiculous.

 

I get the impression that maybe because he's spent his entire career at Fenway and because he's a passionate character, he sometimes gets a free pass. Or is he a guy who used to be a lot more effective (I note the decline in his stats) but is past his best?

[FredLynn]

Hi all,

 

I'm a relatively new Sox fan, having followed the team for just under 2 years now. In that time, I've come to the conclusion that Kevin Youkilis is by some distance the Sox' most over-rated player. This isn't trolling, I'm just wondering whether there's something that I'm missing. As I see it:-

 

- His batting average is just that, average (14th among players on the active roster this year, 11th last season).

- He doesn't hit many homers for a big guy.

- He's not a big game player. Any time he has a chance to turn a game, it seems to me that he does something stupid like strike out swinging at a ball in the dirt. Tonight's performance with the bases loaded is a classic example.

- His technique is ridiculous.

 

I get the impression that maybe because he's spent his entire career at Fenway and because he's a passionate character, he sometimes gets a free pass. Or is he a guy who used to be a lot more effective (I note the decline in his stats) but is past his best?

 

Look at this link and you will see that, in fact, he used to be a very good player. Great patience at the plate, hit for average and power, and won a gold glove at first base. He has fallen off a cliff. And its sad to see.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youklke01.shtml

[Bellhorn04]

He was 3rd in MVP voting in 2008 and 6th in 2009.

[tackle-bag]

He was 3rd in MVP voting in 2008 and 6th in 2009.

 

I'm not saying for a second that he's not highly rated; he's a 3 time all-star who has consistently been listed in the top 40 players in the majors over the past few years. My point is that those accolades don't appear to have been deserved for some time now.

 

Will Middlebrooks has played 4 fewer games this season than Youk but there is daylight between them in terms of hits and homers. The former also has nearly twice as many RBI, all of which is summarised by a much healthier average. All of the offensive evidence so far this season would suggest that he ought to be first choice.

[Cocos Disciples]

He had a short but terrific prime. In 2008 and 2009 he had an OPS in the mid .900s. He was great in the time he played in 2010, but had some injuries. Injuries have been troubling him for the last 3 years. That and age haven't helped. I think he'll still improve to the low .800s this year, but he's not an elite player anymore. I don't think there's any delusion, though. I'd guess my opinion isn't too controversial on this matter.

[jung]

Youk has always taken some abuse for being something of a sour sort. However Youk has sacrificed a good deal for this team. Youk should have rightfully stayed at first base for his career. He would have been a gold glove first baseman, would have stayed healthier and would have extended his time as a top level player. Instead the Sox, never satisfied with taking an A grade defender and leaving him at his position, moved him to third. True Youk could play 3rd well but it was not in his best interest to make that move. Youk has never balked once, never complained once and gets basically no credit for it.

 

I think much of his "decline" can be attributed to his having a somewhat brittle body and having been exposed by the move to third.

 

At least Youk has made some progress since coming back of the DL. He is at least back to making good plate appearances again. He may never reach his peak again but I also think the Sox are as much to blame for that as anybody.

[seabeachfred]

Why don't we all wake up and smell the freakin' coffee!!!!!!!! If you have been following the team the past week and a half to two weeks, you would see that when Middlebrooks plays we win. When he sits we lose. That has happened the last five time Will has sat. Some of you may think there is nothing to that, fine. BUT I DO!!!!! We have a terrific young ballplayer who we are screwing because turdbag Pukington is afraid to pull the trigger on a trade to open third base for Will and end this circus with our lineup. Tonight Youk struck out three times in three official at-bats; Middlebrooks got one at-bat and got a hit. He has more homers and more RBI's than Youkilis and deserves to be in the lineup full time.

 

I don't know what brain cramps our front office and managers get with their worshipping of their sacred cows but since we are not going anywhere this year with our miserable starting pitching this would be a good time to get some youth in the lineup and start the rebuilding process. All this talk about Youkilis doing better since he got back only clouds the issue that he is injury prone and needs to be traded not only to open the job for Will but to get him out of town before he breaks down again and all we are offered is a box of ping pong balls for him. AND THAT MEANS HE WOULD STILL BE AROUND TO KEEP MIDDLEBROOKS FROM DEVELOPING FURTHER AS HE IS JERKED OFF IN AND OUT OF THE LINEUP. For God's sake Pukington wake the #### up!!!!!!!!

[Cocos Disciples]

Why don't we all wake up and smell the freakin' coffee!!!!!!!! If you have been following the team the past week and a half to two weeks, you would see that when Middlebrooks plays we win. When he sits we lose. That has happened the last five time Will has sat. Some of you may think there is nothing to that, fine. BUT I DO!!!!! We have a terrific young ballplayer who we are screwing because turdbag Pukington is afraid to pull the trigger on a trade to open third base for Will and end this circus with our lineup. Tonight Youk struck out three times in three official at-bats; Middlebrooks got one at-bat and got a hit. He has more homers and more RBI's than Youkilis and deserves to be in the lineup full time.

 

I don't know what brain cramps our front office and managers get with their worshipping of their sacred cows but since we are not going anywhere this year with our miserable starting pitching this would be a good time to get some youth in the lineup and start the rebuilding process. All this talk about Youkilis doing better since he got back only clouds the issue that he is injury prone and needs to be traded not only to open the job for Will but to get him out of town before he breaks down again and all we are offered is a box of ping pong balls for him. AND THAT MEANS HE WOULD STILL BE AROUND TO KEEP MIDDLEBROOKS FROM DEVELOPING FURTHER AS HE IS JERKED OFF IN AND OUT OF THE LINEUP. For God's sake Pukington wake the #### up!!!!!!!!

You seem upset about something.

[mvp 78]

17-11 when WMB plays.

 

Does Ben make the lineup card or BV, Fred?

[FredLynn]

17-11 when WMB plays.

 

Does Ben make the lineup card or BV, Fred?

 

Not bad. Six games over .500. If we were six games over .500 now we would be tied with the Orioles for third place instead of in LAST PLACE, and just one game behind first place.

The time for Middlebrooks is now. f***you Kilis should sail on the last ship into the West.

[redsoxbeatz]

So thats just 13 million we can't do s*** about then, huh?

 

WMB has to play.

[jung]

Whether Middlebrooks should play or not is a different discussion. The thread is I guess about Youk.

 

Youk should be traded. The Sox have made it pretty clear at least to me that they are not interested in eating salary or are at least interested in trimming as much salary as they can in any deals they might make. They are already actively trying to move Youk so what do we expect? Oh wait I know...we expect that they will make a max effort to win the penant blah blah blah....they are not going to do that. Sorry....that is not who these guy are...so you can bust a gut about it if you want...it won't change anything except you will be layin there with a busted gut.

 

They are going to keep showcasing Youk as long as they think it helps them move him in a way that makes the most financial sense and gets them the most value back for him....frankly right now I would just about prefer they send WMB down and let him play someplace everyday instead of having him sit so damn much.

 

So as you can likely see from my post I don't think this is completely a V decision on youk playing time. We would have to be blind by now to think V has really been given a free hand with this team.

 

I hope you are all so gong ho when WMB slumps because he is going to slump.

 

Back to Youk....at least he has improved from where he way before he went on the DL. He has turned back into the patient hitter he has been most of his career. He is having more trouble with the slider this year than he has had in other years but he has always struggled with that pitch. So what else do we want to talk about?

 

How long it is taking to move him???? That is an interesting topic. I guess the news that the Sox were shopping him came out....two weeks ago....you would think they could have made a deal of some sort...I am guessing the offers have been puke so far. Would love to know how long the Sox are going to wait to pull the plug on Youk or take whatever offer they can get....maybe they need to get more creative about what they are packaging Youk with to make a deal.

[wyo-sox]

Why don't we all wake up and smell the freakin' coffee!!!!!!!! If you have been following the team the past week and a half to two weeks, you would see that when Middlebrooks plays we win. When he sits we lose. That has happened the last five time Will has sat. Some of you may think there is nothing to that, fine. BUT I DO!!!!! We have a terrific young ballplayer who we are screwing because turdbag Pukington is afraid to pull the trigger on a trade to open third base for Will and end this circus with our lineup. Tonight Youk struck out three times in three official at-bats; Middlebrooks got one at-bat and got a hit. He has more homers and more RBI's than Youkilis and deserves to be in the lineup full time.

 

I don't know what brain cramps our front office and managers get with their worshipping of their sacred cows but since we are not going anywhere this year with our miserable starting pitching this would be a good time to get some youth in the lineup and start the rebuilding process. All this talk about Youkilis doing better since he got back only clouds the issue that he is injury prone and needs to be traded not only to open the job for Will but to get him out of town before he breaks down again and all we are offered is a box of ping pong balls for him. AND THAT MEANS HE WOULD STILL BE AROUND TO KEEP MIDDLEBROOKS FROM DEVELOPING FURTHER AS HE IS JERKED OFF IN AND OUT OF THE LINEUP. For God's sake Pukington wake the #### up!!!!!!!!

 

What trade offers for Youk has he not pulled the trigger on? I think he will be and should be traded but didn't know there was something on the table.

[pedroias laser]

What trade offers for Youk has he not pulled the trigger on? I think he will be and should be traded but didn't know there was something on the table.

 

I dont believe there is anything on the table for youkilis per say. But from all the

rumors swirling one cannot help but see that the big guy just isn't a fit here

anymore with the addition of brooksie or not.

[mvp 78]

I dont believe there is anything on the table for youkilis per say. But from all the

rumors swirling one cannot help but see that the big guy just isn't a fit here

anymore with the addition of brooksie or not.

 

Agreed, but if he was traded for crap, the same posters would beat up Ben over it. Wait til you can get a good deal out of it first.

[pedroias laser]

Agreed' date=' but if he was traded for crap, the same posters would beat up Ben over it. Wait til you can get a good deal out of it first.[/quote']

 

Agree with you on that mvp. Also i believe if a trade does happen it will go

right to the deadline nothing before that.

[SoxSport]

"Delusion" reared it's ugly head when Youks was moved from 1B to 3B. He simply couldn't handle the transition physically, and nobody in the front office wants to admit it. As a first baseman, he was an all-star--one of the best all-around in the big leagues for several years.

[Bellhorn04]

"Delusion" reared it's ugly head when Youks was moved from 1B to 3B. He simply couldn't handle the transition physically' date=' and nobody in the front office wants to admit it. As a first baseman, he was an all-star--one of the best all-around in the big leagues for several years.[/quote']

 

The injury bug first struck him in 2010 when he was still at first base. The move to third didn't help, but the evidence suggests he was breaking down anyway.

[evilhand]

The premise of the OP is horseshit. Batting average is nearly useless for evaluating the value of a hitter. As are RBIs. Fact is, Youk has put up the following OBP/SLG since the start of 2008.

 

2008: .390/.569

2009: .413/.538

2010: .411/.564

2011: .373/.459

 

His slugging definitely dropped during his injury plagued 2011, but he was still an enormously valuable player. He had a May that was in line with his peak years after coming back from the injury he had this spring as well, which is encouraging.

 

And his 2011 line is suppressed significantly by his August and September numbers when he was playing while barely being able to walk. His SLG had dropped a bit up to that point, but his OBP was right in line with his career norm up through the end of July.

 

If you want to argue that he's unable to stay healthy and thus isn't worth holding onto while Middlebrooks is here if they can get a good return for him, fine. That's a reasonable argument. But suggesting he's "the most overrated player" on the team is ridiculous. Dinging him because his stance is unorthodox is like saying he's not a good player because he has no hair or because his cleats are always dirty.

 

And I have no idea what "not a big game player" means. Even with his overall numbers being unimpressive on the year in 2011, he had a .991 OPS with men in scoring position. It's 1.024 this year.

 

In other words, the stats say exactly the opposite of what you're claiming here.

[jung]

You just can't argue that he has not been a very effective hitter over his career.

 

I am wondering why the Sox seem to be having difficulty getting sniffs that are reasonable for Youk although it might as much be because teams are all onto playing this game the same way....try to get the player for cheap all the way up to the trade deadline. That might say the same thing a different way though. Maybe none of them see enough value in Youk to jump the gun, make the Sox enough of an offer and try to grab him before somebody else gets him.

 

If I were interested in Youk it would be because I have a spot at 1st knowing that I could use him at 3rd if I had to for some reason. I might be less inclined to offer the Sox as much if the only spot I had was at 3rd. Nobody seems to take into account the strain of throwing across the infield every throw. Your arm is not the only thing that suffers.

[evilhand]

I imagine that the asking price from Ben is probably prohibitive right now. The Sox have no reason to rush into a deal and should be waiting to see if someone blinks and bites at an overpay. Until the outfield gets healthy enough to force them to demote Middlebrooks, there's no pressure to work something out. Even then, they're better off getting Middlebrooks at bats in Pawtucket while giving teams a chance to cave in leading up to the trade deadline.

 

If they're going to trade him, and all indications are that that's the plan, I imagine it won't happen until much closer to the deadline.

[Bellhorn04]

I imagine that the asking price from Ben is probably prohibitive right now. The Sox have no reason to rush into a deal and should be waiting to see if someone blinks and bites at an overpay. Until the outfield gets healthy enough to force them to demote Middlebrooks, there's no pressure to work something out. Even then, they're better off getting Middlebrooks at bats in Pawtucket while giving teams a chance to cave in leading up to the trade deadline.

 

I think Middlebrooks has shown enough that he should be in the lineup over Youkilis. That's the problem.

[evilhand]

But you're looking at a rookie on a hot start versus a vet who has been one of the best hitters in the game since 2008. When Youk is healthy it's ridiculous to suggest he should ride the bench, even if his eventual replacement has been hitting well.

 

Besides, if they do intend to trade him, how do they get his value up without playing him? There is absolutely no reason to be sitting Youk right now.

[Elktonnick]

But you're looking at a rookie on a hot start versus a vet who has been one of the best hitters in the game since 2008. When Youk is healthy it's ridiculous to suggest he should ride the bench, even if his eventual replacement has been hitting well.

 

Besides, if they do intend to trade him, how do they get his value up without playing him? There is absolutely no reason to be sitting Youk right now.

 

Youk's best days are behind him. They can play him until the cows come home and it won't increase his trade value. That's a red herring. No team is going to give the Sox much for him especially since the Red Sox in Cherrington have literally the country bumpkin in the trade market. Cherries if left to his own devices would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

[RedSoxRally]

I am among those who think the asking price is higher than what most teams are willing to take at this time. By the trade deadline, if there are teams around the MLB in need of a 1st baseman, the asking price won't weigh as much on another owner as it may have before. My guess is that the Red Sox are currently shopping around as to see where the best fit for Kevin is. Sooner or later I think Youkilis will be dealt somewhere else and Middlebrooks's hot start will continue to fuel any trade rumors that much more.

[seabeachfred]

Youk's best days are behind him. They can play him until the cows come home and it won't increase his trade value. That's a red herring. No team is going to give the Sox much for him especially since the Red Sox in Cherrington have literally the country bumpkin in the trade market. Cherries if left to his own devices would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

The fact Elk is that the more Youk plays the less value he has. He hasn't exactly been knocking the cover off the ball, and as you so smartly said, his best days are long behind him. As for Cherington it bamboozles me that so many on this board actually think this guy knows what the hell he's doing. He's a rube and would buy the Brooklyn Bridge, that is, if he knew what it was and where it was at. The guy is a total clown.

[SoxSport]

The injury bug first struck him in 2010 when he was still at first base. The move to third didn't help' date=' but the evidence suggests he was breaking down anyway.[/quote']

 

Youks had a --you guessed it--an adductor muscle tear in his thumb which required surgery and kept him out the 2nd half of the season. His first half stats in 2010 were typical Youks power stats. He switched to 3B the following year and hasn't been the same hitter since. Maybe it was the thumb. Who knows.

 

Muscle tears in the thumb seem to be commonplace on the Red Sox lately.

[SoxSport]

The fact Elk is that the more Youk plays the less value he has. He hasn't exactly been knocking the cover off the ball' date=' and as you so smartly said, his best days are long behind him. As for Cherington it bamboozles me that so many on this board actually think this guy knows what the hell he's doing. He's a rube and would buy the Brooklyn Bridge, that is, if he knew what it was and where it was at. The guy is a total clown.[/quote']

 

My impression is Henry/Lucchino left Epstein to run the team as he wished after the 07 season. Lucchino turned his attention to Fenway Park and Henry to women and soccer teams, while Theo was left to dig deeply into Daddy's candy jar. A series of ill-advised FA moves and injuries has left them where they are right now. Plus there appear to be cracks in the management structure in terms of responsibilities, created by Henry/Lucchino mismanagement.

 

What you are seeing now is the result of a team that has not been well-managed since the last Championship in 07--from the top down.

[evilhand]

The fact Elk is that the more Youk plays the less value he has. He hasn't exactly been knocking the cover off the ball' date=' and as you so smartly said, his best days are long behind him. As for Cherington it bamboozles me that so many on this board actually think this guy knows what the hell he's doing. He's a rube and would buy the Brooklyn Bridge, that is, if he knew what it was and where it was at. The guy is a total clown.[/quote']

 

Both sentiments expressed in this post are unsupportable. The first is that Youk playing actually depresses his value. He had over a .900 OPS in May and then a rough first week in June. A good run in the next week and his numbers since coming back look great again. His bat is still one of the best in baseball when he's healthy. What he did in May shows that.

 

The only knock on him is his ability to stay healthy, and the only way to demonstrate he is is to play him. Leaving him on the bench actively depresses his value. Letting him show he's healthy and that he can be a big part for a playoff contender is the only way to bring his value up and maximize the return.

 

As for saying Cherrington is a clown or doesn't know what he's doing... what is that even based on? The guy inherited a team with bloated contracts for guys who weren't even on the field and was asked to win while also rebuilding the roster. In that time, he's kept the team in striking distance of the playoffs while filling in the temporary holes in the roster with players that have done nothing but produce at the plate.

 

The Ross/Sweeney platoon was excellent before Ross broke his foot, the Nava call up has been better than anyone could have imagined, he called up Middlebrooks when Youk got hurt and that turned out great, he threw Podsednick on the MLB roster while he was hot and that carried over. He's done a great job of identifying assets that have been rolling and getting them to the majors where needed to get as much out of their hot streaks as possible.

 

For trades, bringing a closer who has been every bit as good as Papelbon over the previous three years combined while also getting Sweeney for Reddick, a young streaky hitter who has a sub .700 OPS after his initial hot streak last year was, at worst, a good move. If you don't believe me, let's take a look at this again at the end of the year after Reddick's hot streak is forgotten and we see another extended run of poor hitting.

 

The Byrd trade was a classic swap of fungible parts that didn't work out for either team. And Melancon for Lowrie was a clear case of choosing Aviles over Lowrie (probably for health concerns) and moving the other part for something they needed: bullpen help. Melancon struggled initially, but is tearing it up in AAA right now, just waiting for a chance to break back into the pen (which has been too good to give him that chance). Yes, Lowrie is statistically the best short stop in the NL so far, but let's give it a full season to see if he stays healthy before we start considering that trade a loss.

 

The only move I can think of that I'd say is a clear bad decision by Cherrington so far is signing Punto (for 2 years no less!). I don't get that, no matter what kind of spin is put on it. Punto sucks and has no business on a major league roster for a contender.

 

So if the definition of "doesn't know what he's doing" is making one bad move in the off season and one move that might turn out to be a bad one by the end of the year, then sure... he's clueless. But considering he managed to put together the second best offense in the AL despite a ridiculous amount of injuries, pieced together what has turned out to be a very strong bullpen after jettisoning some crappy pieces (Justin Thomas, I'm looking at you!), identified Doubront as a strong back of the rotation starter, had the patience to let Clay work through his issues and become a dominant arm again, and has juggled a roster that is probably as complicated and difficult as any Sox roster I've seen in over a decade, I can't see how a credible argument can be made for calling him clueless.

[Bellhorn04]

The only move I can think of that I'd say is a clear bad decision by Cherrington so far is signing Punto (for 2 years no less!). I don't get that, no matter what kind of spin is put on it. Punto sucks and has no business on a major league roster for a contender.

 

So if the definition of "doesn't know what he's doing" is making one bad move in the off season and one move that might turn out to be a bad one by the end of the year, then sure... he's clueless. But considering he managed to put together the second best offense in the AL despite a ridiculous amount of injuries, pieced together what has turned out to be a very strong bullpen after jettisoning some crappy pieces (Justin Thomas, I'm looking at you!), identified Doubront as a strong back of the rotation starter, had the patience to let Clay work through his issues and become a dominant arm again, and has juggled a roster that is probably as complicated and difficult as any Sox roster I've seen in over a decade, I can't see how a credible argument can be made for calling him clueless.

 

I agree, it's ridiculous to call Cherington clueless based on what he's done so far. Of course Fred and Nick don't even want to take into consideration the limited budget he had to work with.

 

I'm actually surprised you would say that about the Punto acquisition because you're such a numbers person. He hit 278/388/421 and had a +14.2 UZR/150 for St. Louis last year, and they won it all.