6/5 vs Hammel's HR Dispensery

[Station 13]

Without a true' date=' elite pen talent, everyone is a crapshoot at all times. Nobody has a pen full of lockdown relievers, but you have to have someone who you can trust in huge spots. V is doing a good job of managing them, but everyone reverts to norms eventually. Some guys revert after a full season and others revert in season.[/quote']

 

Bobby done a decent job at match up. But half of those times it's bullet dodging. Padilla got his ass saved two time, and one time Sweeney ended up with a concussion. The other time Lin made a great dive to bail him out.

 

The Sox need two slam the door relievers like Bard and Papelbon, right now they don't have anyone close to that. Hopefully Bard and Bailey can be that soon.

[FredLynn]

Isn't Robertson hurt?

 

Yeah, but he will be back soon

[jacksonianmarch]

How did Robertson do in 08 and 10?

How did Soriano do in 2011?

Hi.

 

Robertson was pretty good in 2010, lots of walks, but tons of K's and a low ERA. He really came out last yr as he is still pretty young

 

Soriano was injured for most of 2011 and has otherwise been dominant his whole career.

[seabeachfred]

You realize that Lester dominates the orioles so much that it should be a crime' date=' right? And the lineup's solid tonight, WMB or not.[/quote']

 

Sorry BTR---your heart is in the right place but your head it not. It was pretty easy to see tonight's game was going to be a useless exercise in futility. As you saw Youk went 0 for 5 and K'd twice while a player who is hitting over 300, showing good power and being successful in driving in clutch runs was saddled on the bench again. The last four times he has sat we have lost; the last four times he has played we have won. It doesn't take much to see a pattern right. The fact is whether you believe me or not, or whether anyone on this board believes me, I stubbornly maintain that Middlebrooks belongs in the lineup and Youkilis either belongs on the bench or traded within a day or so before he really goes to seed and either collapses entirely or goes back on the DL. As for Lester, he can't really beat anyone anymore. He has lost his confidence and because he threw Francona under the bus last September the gods of fate have zapped him with a hex that will take more character and guts to overcome than this flunky follower has in his veins. An inconvenient truth, but that seems to be the way it is. If Middlebrooks is in the lineup tomorrow we will win; if not you might see a replica of what went down tonight.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[SoxFanForsyth]

Without a true' date=' elite pen talent, everyone is a crapshoot at all times. Nobody has a pen full of lockdown relievers, but you have to have someone who you can trust in huge spots. V is doing a good job of managing them, but everyone reverts to norms eventually. Some guys revert after a full season and others revert in season.[/quote']

 

A bullpen is as much or more about the management of the bullpen than it is about the arms in the bullpen. The reason the Sox bullpen is so much better right now is because V has been playing the match ups. Miller and Hill are throwing exclusively against LHH. There are basically 2 set positions - Aceves as the closer and Padilla as the set up man.

 

Now, you can say that the Sox don't have a strike out guy and that is a major weakness. But if Valentine continues to play the match ups, the bullpen will be fine. It's exactly how the Rays have a good bullpen year in and year out with washed up names.

[jung]

I think WMB needs to be playing and considering how they are going at this point I might consider platooning Agons and Youk at 1st for a little while depending on when we are going to get more offense back in the form of Ells and CC or even Ross for that matter.

 

Boston fans will absolutely go wild at the thought of such high visibility stars being platooned so WMB can play but I really don't know how to justify having them play and WMB sit other than their salaries.

[seabeachfred]

I think WMB needs to be playing and considering how they are going at this point I might consider platooning Agons and Youk at 1st for a little while depending on when we are going to get more offense back in the form of Ells and CC or even Ross for that matter.

 

Boston fans will absolutely go wild at the thought of such high visibility stars being platooned so WMB can play but I really don't know how to justify having them play and WMB sit other than their salaries.

 

I think you underestimate Red Sox fans Jung. I think most of them agree with us that Middlebrooks belongs in the lineup. The guy is not only doing well when in the lineup but we seem to win when he plays---and we lose when Youkilis is playing third. Of course there is that salary angle and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if orders are coming down from the bumbling Lucchinodork and the totally inept Pukington to keep those sacred cows in the lineup. Now I have a question....WHEN THE HELL IS SOMEONE IN THAT FRONT OFFICE GOING TO GROW A BRAIN AND SWING THAT TRADE FOR YOUKILIS? It isn't even to get quality help for him that I want that trade. I w ant to start getting some of our younger players in the lineup because we are not going to go anywhere this season with a starting rotation like the one we have and a bullpen that might return to its early season form as it did tonight. Start to back up the truck.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I agree. I was furious from the get go that we were sitting Middlebrooks after he sat Sunday and had an off day on Monday. Now he's had 3 consecutive days off and his timing is going to be shot. Just an idiotic move by Valentine.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think you underestimate Red Sox fans Jung. I think most of them agree with us that Middlebrooks belongs in the lineup. The guy is not only doing well when in the lineup but we seem to win when he plays---and we lose when Youkilis is playing third. Of course there is that salary angle and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if orders are coming down from the bumbling Lucchinodork and the totally inept Pukington to keep those sacred cows in the lineup. Now I have a question....WHEN THE HELL IS SOMEONE IN THAT FRONT OFFICE GOING TO GROW A BRAIN AND SWING THAT TRADE FOR YOUKILIS? It isn't even to get quality help for him that I want that trade. I w ant to start getting some of our younger players in the lineup because we are not going to go anywhere this season with a starting rotation like the one we have and a bullpen that might return to its early season form as it did tonight. Start to back up the truck.

 

You know they are still only 3 out, right? And on Friday, they could very well be 1 out.

[redsoxrules]

Hate to say it but if the Red Sox had Palpelbon they would probably be in first place now .

Aceves has been total s*** and should not be closing

[seabeachfred]

You know they are still only 3 out' date=' right? And on Friday, they could very well be 1 out.[/quote']

 

Forsyth, I would love for you to be right but you are in dreamland. Unless we put Middlebrooks in that lineup and immediately trade Youkilis to clear that spot for him we are heading to the outhouse. If Will is on the bench tomorrow we will lose--simple as that, jsut as we have the last four games he was on the pine.

[FredLynn]

Robertson was pretty good in 2010, lots of walks, but tons of K's and a low ERA. He really came out last yr as he is still pretty young

 

Soriano was injured for most of 2011 and has otherwise been dominant his whole career.

 

David Robertson stats: 2008=5.34; 2010=3.82

Rafael Soriano stats: 2011-4.12. Other seasons too with horrible ERAs.

[redsoxbeatz]

Demoralizing as f***. Killing WMBs hot-streak. Ugh.

[FredLynn]

WHEN THE HELL IS SOMEONE IN THAT FRONT OFFICE GOING TO GROW A BRAIN AND SWING THAT TRADE FOR YOUKILIS?

 

Not any time soon Fred. Our FO rightfully optioned Bard to AAA, but too late, and they failed to admit that he is a RP, not a SP. They are clearly in a fog. Youkilis MUST be traded while its still possible to pull the wool over the eyes of some of the GMs. Soon everyone will see that he is a figment of his former self and refuse to give us quality in return. Youkilis deserves a seat on the pine, as does ABUM Gonzalez, but our FO is too stupid to see it.

[Station 13]

Salty been using the monster as of late. Good that he has finally learn that lefties could become awesome fenway hitters by lofting ball the other way.

[redsoxbeatz]

gotta win next two. gotta!!

[Bellhorn04]

Just an absolutely terrible showing from the pitching tonight. Pathetic and nobody would step up. Extremely disappointing loss. Offense showed resilience. Pitching couldn't stop s***ing their pants

 

That sums up this ugly loss.

[jacksonianmarch]

Salty been using the monster as of late. Good that he has finally learn that lefties could become awesome fenway hitters by lofting ball the other way.

 

Any strong lefty just needs to hit a fly ball to left to get a double or a tater. Papi has been doing it for years. Papi can drive it over the monster too, but a lot of his doubles and HRs to left are flyouts anywhere else, and probably not even to the track. Just get under it and be a little late on it and you're on base. Makes me wonder why AdGon has lost this approach. He seems content with the oppo groundball single instead of the oppo wall ball double or tater

[a700hitter]

Pedroia (and even Youk to an extent) have been doing fine. No one can have a 162-game hitting streak. This one is on the bullpen.

You are right. No one can have a 162 game hot streak, but the reasons for Tuesday's loss were Pedroia, Gonzo and the Bullpen. Saying that Pedroia is a reason for losing a game is not a condemnation of him as a player. He is one of the best players in baseball, and I have always said that when he hits the Sox win. Tonight the tables were set for him all night and he came up empty. I'll bet that he is taking this on himself. He is not a concern for Sox fans, because these types of days are rare for him. Gonzo is becoming a concern. It's June for crying out loud, and this guy is looking lost. We thought we were getting a Pujols type hitter and he is not even hitting up to Brian Daubach standards.

 

The bullpen ranks third in the list of reasons for losing this game. If Pedroia and Gonzo had done their jobs at all, the game would have been a blowout and the pen would have been irrelevant.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You are right. No one can have a 162 game hot streak, but the reasons for Tuesday's loss were Pedroia, Gonzo and the Bullpen. Saying that Pedroia is a reason for losing a game is not a condemnation of him as a player. He is one of the best players in baseball, and I have always said that when he hits the Sox win. Tonight the tables were set for him all night and he came up empty. I'll bet that he is taking this on himself. He is not a concern for Sox fans, because these types of days are rare for him. Gonzo is becoming a concern. It's June for crying out loud, and this guy is looking lost. We thought we were getting a Pujols type hitter and he is not even hitting up to Brian Daubach standards.

 

The bullpen ranks third in the list of reasons for losing this game. If Pedroia and Gonzo had done their jobs at all, the game would have been a blowout and the pen would have been irrelevant.

 

Or if Aviles can field a ground ball. The first 2 runs should have never even been scored by the Orioles. Aviles's defense has been very bad as of late. He seems to be settling back into his career norm.

[a700hitter]

But the real goat tonight was Aviles, whose error cost 2 runs, and the bullpen for not being able to shut down the Orioles a single time after we scored.

Sure he made an error, but instead of picking up his fielder Lester did what he has done all season long when he has met adversity. He unraveled. Also, Aviles was on base all night for Pedey and Gonzo and they did nothing. Aviles is way down on the list of reasons for the loss. He put the team in a great position for big innings and the big boys spit the bit.

[a700hitter]

After the horrendous start our bullpen has performed very well. I look at the bottom line' date=' not what someone's potential is. They might revert; they might not. There are very few lockdown consistently great relievers. The Yankees have none now that Mariano is down.[/quote']

This sums it up perfectly. Bobby V has done a great job of managing the pen, burt without a lock down arm or two in the pen, the late innings will be a crapshoot and a heart attack all year long. We had to expect this after losing the best Sox closer ever ad our lock down 8th inning guy. If people didn't expect this, they just weren't thinking.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Sure he made an error' date=' but instead of picking up his fielder Lester did what he has done all season long when he has met adversity. He unraveled. Also, Aviles was on base all night for Pedey and Gonzo and they did nothing. Aviles is way down on the list of reasons for the loss. He put the team in a great position for big innings and the big boys spit the bit.[/quote']

 

Yeah Lester cannot stop the bleeding anymore, but Aviles's defense has really taken a hit lately. He's in quite a rut right now. Offensively, yeah he did well. And I agree that Pedey and Gonzo were awful, but pitching and defense wins games.

 

Even as bad as the Sox played, if you're scoring 6 runs, you better win the game. The rest of the lineup did enough to pick up Pedey and Gonzo (Pedroia gets a pass from me because he's been out a week and needs a game or two to get his timing back).

 

You can't give AL East teams extra outs because it's going to cost you.

 

And Aceves doesn't get a pass from me. Don't walk the freaking leadoff hitter after your team just came back and tied it up in the 9th. That's inexcusable. Absolutely inexcusable.

[SoxFanForsyth]

This sums it up perfectly. Bobby V has done a great job of managing the pen' date=' burt without a lock down arm or two in the pen, the late innings will be a crapshoot and a heart attack all year long. We had to expect this after losing the best Sox closer ever ad our lock down 8th inning guy. If people didn't expect this, they just weren't thinking.[/quote']

 

And it makes zero sense that Bard is in AAA trying to work on starting instead of throwing every other game and getting back to being an elite reliever. I know the bullpen has been good, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Show me a man who is satisfied and I'll show you a failure. The bullpen needs a lock down, strike out pitcher for situations just like last night with 1 out and a man on 2nd in the 10th.

[Emmz]

Yeah Lester cannot stop the bleeding anymore, but Aviles's defense has really taken a hit lately. He's in quite a rut right now. Offensively, yeah he did well. And I agree that Pedey and Gonzo were awful, but pitching and defense wins games.

 

Even as bad as the Sox played, if you're scoring 6 runs, you better win the game. The rest of the lineup did enough to pick up Pedey and Gonzo (Pedroia gets a pass from me because he's been out a week and needs a game or two to get his timing back).

 

You can't give AL East teams extra outs because it's going to cost you.

 

And Aceves doesn't get a pass from me. Don't walk the freaking leadoff hitter after your team just came back and tied it up in the 9th. That's inexcusable. Absolutely inexcusable.

 

Thats a cliche type thing to say, and I think you know it. The team that gives itself the best chance to win wins the game. Run differential isn't a one way street.

[Station 13]

Any strong lefty just needs to hit a fly ball to left to get a double or a tater. Papi has been doing it for years. Papi can drive it over the monster too' date=' but a lot of his doubles and HRs to left are flyouts anywhere else, and probably not even to the track. Just get under it and be a little late on it and you're on base. Makes me wonder why AdGon has lost this approach. He seems content with the oppo groundball single instead of the oppo wall ball double or tater[/quote']

 

Gonzalez seems to be in a funk with mechanics. He's popping up a lot on outside pitches (he drove that to left/left center last year) and not cleaning out low inside fastball as he did last year. His batspeed is not there and late of anything 92+. I'm guessing there's a shoulder problem with him. He doesn't go from being the best opposite hitter over the last 5 year to this without something affecting his swing.

[a700hitter]

I don't think you can ever blame a single play for a loss. The play was early in the game and Lester had the chance to pick him up. He didn't. Pedey and Gonzo had several opportunities to blow open innings with a big hit. The faield repeatedly. N, I don't hang this one on Aviles by a long shot. A SS with 6 errors is doing a good job. Lester did a poor job when he faced adversitry. The pen blew up too, but those shortcomings would have been irrelevant if Pedey or Gonzo had contributed anything at all. It happens. Give me 2 guys on base a couple of times a game with no out or 1 out and Pedey and Gonzo and Ortiz coming up and I like our chances for a blow out on those nights. Last night, it didn't work out.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Thats a cliche type thing to say' date=' and I think you know it. The team that gives itself the best chance to win wins the game. Run differential isn't a one way street.[/quote']

 

It's cliche for a reason, because it's true. You give a team extra outs, you're going to lose a lot of games. Good pitching actually does beat good hitting.

 

The Red Sox have scored the 2nd most runs in all of baseball, but have the worst ERA in the AL (3rd worst in MLB). And look at their record. They are 1 game over .500.

 

They went on a tear at the end of May because they were getting very good starting pitching and elite relief work.

 

Sure, any given day a team can win 13-12, and in that case good hitting wins. But to win on a consistent basis, you have to have good pitching and good defense.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I don't think you can ever blame a single play for a loss. The play was early in the game and Lester had the chance to pick him up. He didn't. Pedey and Gonzo had several opportunities to blow open innings with a big hit. The faield repeatedly. N' date=' I don't hang this one on Aviles by a long shot. A SS with 6 errors is doing a good job. Lester did a poor job when he faced adversitry. The pen blew up too, but those shortcomings would have been irrelevant if Pedey or Gonzo had contributed anything at all. It happens. Give me 2 guys on base a couple of times a game with no out or 1 out and Pedey and Gonzo and Ortiz coming up and I like our chances for a blow out on those nights. Last night, it didn't work out.[/quote']

 

Yeah but as bad as Pedey and Gonzo were, you also had your #8 and #9 hitter go 5 for 10 on the night. I'm saying as an overall offense, they did enough to win the game by putting up 6 runs.

 

If you don't want to hang it on Aviles, fine. But saying "A SS with 6 errors is doing a good job" is the equivalent of saying "It's not Pedroia's fault because he's hitting .300 this year". We're looking at 1 game, not the season. Aviles made a big error that cost the team 2 runs.

[SoxFanForsyth]

But to back up your point, Pedroia, Gonzalez, and Youkilis left a combined 12 men on base. That's horrifying. And what's worse is that Middlebrooks sat all night and watched Youk get beat by bunt and look overmatched all game. And now his timing is going to be shot since its Wednesday and he hasn't played since Saturday.