6/5 vs Hammel's HR Dispensery

[Station 13]

But to back up your point' date=' Pedroia, Gonzalez, and Youkilis left a combined 12 men on base. That's horrifying. And what's worse is that Middlebrooks sat all night and watched Youk get beat by bunt and look overmatched all game. And now his timing is going to be shot since its Wednesday and he hasn't played since Saturday.[/quote']

 

Is there a lefty going tongiht? Gonzo should just sit out a game right now.

[Bellhorn04]

Anybody that isn't worried about Gonzo at this point is kidding themselves. Something isn't right and more than likely his shoulder is affecting him a lot more than he's saying. I won't be surprised if we get some sort of breaking news on this soon. Maybe the Red Sox crack medical staff should be proactive and examine it? Nah, they'd never do that...

[a700hitter]

And it makes zero sense that Bard is in AAA trying to work on starting instead of throwing every other game and getting back to being an elite reliever. I know the bullpen has been good' date=' but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Show me a man who is satisfied and I'll show you a failure. The bullpen needs a lock down, strike out pitcher for situations just like last night with 1 out and a man on 2nd in the 10th.[/quote']It made less than zero sense to try to convert a lock down late inning bullpen guy to a starting pitcher in the same year that you lose your All Star closer. That compounded the loss of Papelbon, and the late innings will be a crap shoot until Bailey and Bard can come back. Bailey is a long way off, and Bard may have been wrecked for longer than we would like.

 

In my many years of coaching, if I lost a guy for a game or so, I'd try not to limit the number of guys playing out of position when filling the hole, because the more guys playing out of position the greater the probability of disaster. Sometimes it would be difficult. If the SS was missing, you usually didn't have a guy on the bench who could play SS. The best option was to slide the second baseman over to play SS. Now there is a hole at 2nd. Sometimes the temptation was to move the third baseman to second and then sometimes the catcher was the better option at 3rd. That would leave you with an entire IF playing out of position. It usually didn't end well. I found that it was better to leave the third baseman at 3rd and to play the bench guy at second, fielding only two guys out of position rather than 3. When the Sox lost Papelbon, the last thing they needed to do was compound the problem by pulling Bard out of the pen. They should have obtained a short term starter as a stopgap, and maybe pursued Bard's dream next season.

[redsoxbeatz]

Aviles has walked 7 times out of 221 ABs prior to last night. His defense is pretty bad.

 

I wonder if Iglesias is healthy enough to get a few ABs in the Majors? Other guys from the farm have helped this team out significantly thus far.

 

Maybe Gonzo needs some AAA ABs.

 

And for all of us who want DiceK over Bard, I saw that DiceK was supposed to throw 5 innings and he went 1.1 w/40 pitches in AAA. Seems like he IS him normal self after all!

[a700hitter]

Yeah but as bad as Pedey and Gonzo were, you also had your #8 and #9 hitter go 5 for 10 on the night. I'm saying as an overall offense, they did enough to win the game by putting up 6 runs.

 

If you don't want to hang it on Aviles, fine. But saying "A SS with 6 errors is doing a good job" is the equivalent of saying "It's not Pedroia's fault because he's hitting .300 this year". We're looking at 1 game, not the season. Aviles made a big error that cost the team 2 runs.

6 runs should be enough on any given night. You are right about that. I am not letting the pitching off the hook, especially Lester, who Bobby V is rightfully giving a shorter and shorter leash. The bull pen is a rag tag collection of misfits. It would be unreasonable to expect them to be lights out every game. They have done better than expected. I never expect Pedey and Gonzo to leave so many men on base. They are the go to guys. For that reason, I put them at the top of the list for last night. It will probably be the only time that Pedey will be at the top of such a list, but he earned it last night. I love the guy, and I'd rather have him than any second baseman, but his didn't get it done last night. As for Gonzo, he has me worried.

[FredLynn]

But to back up your point' date=' Pedroia, Gonzalez, and Youkilis left a combined 12 men on base. That's horrifying. And what's worse is that Middlebrooks sat all night and watched Youk get beat by bunt and look overmatched all game. And now his timing is going to be shot since its Wednesday and he hasn't played since Saturday.[/quote']

 

Yup. Gonzalez will continue to be a target for lots of criticism as long as his performance out there is worse than that of JD Drew. He is being paid a hell of a lot of money, and he is just stinking up the joint. If I were managing this club I would sit his fat butt down on the pine for a game or two to get his attention. He IS more talented than what he is showing us; he has proven that in the past. And unlike Youkilis, he is not too old to do it again. Youkilis stinks too, but he is doing the best he can out there. His best is just not very good any more. Hard to blame him; he is simply washed up and the sooner we get rid of him, the better. As for Pedey the Mouth, he has no right to make demands about being in the starting lineup then get penciled in and stink. He too has the talent to do better. These three guys could have blown this game open, but choked right along side our bullpen. They have put the team in a corner; now we must win the next two games. Its June 6 and we are still in last place, the worst team in the ALE. Pathetic.

[VA Sox Fan]

I wish Ami was around for this. I'd be in so much trouble this season.

 

She'd be giving you so much s***!

[VA Sox Fan]

Is there a lefty going tongiht? Gonzo should just sit out a game right now.

 

Wednesday: LHP Wei-Yin Chen (4-2, 3.75) vs. RHP Josh Beckett (4-5, 4.26), 7:10 p.m., NESN

 

Thursday: LHP Brian Matusz (4-5, 4.82) vs. RHP Clay Buchholz (5-2, 6.58), 7:10 p.m., NESN

[VA Sox Fan]

Anybody that isn't worried about Gonzo at this point is kidding themselves. Something isn't right and more than likely his shoulder is affecting him a lot more than he's saying. I won't be surprised if we get some sort of breaking news on this soon. Maybe the Red Sox crack medical staff should be proactive and examine it? Nah' date=' they'd never do that...[/quote']

 

He seriously has not been the same since that damn Home Run Derby last year. Unreal.

[ORS]

It made less than zero sense to try to convert a lock down late inning bullpen guy to a starting pitcher in the same year that you lose your All Star closer. That compounded the loss of Papelbon' date=' and the late innings will be a crap shoot until Bailey and Bard can come back. Bailey is a long way off, and Bard may have been wrecked for longer than we would like....When the Sox lost Papelbon, the last thing they needed to do was compound the problem by pulling Bard out of the pen. They should have obtained a short term starter as a stopgap, and maybe pursued Bard's dream next season.[/quote']

In a vacuum, yes. Of course, they got what they thought were credible replacements. That blew up in their face, but it wasn't like they didn't accomodate for the loss.

[VA Sox Fan]

I blame the loss on BTR. I was going to make the GT and he beat me to it. So if I had made the GT, we would have won, of course. ;)

[a700hitter]

In a vacuum' date=' yes. Of course, they got what they thought were credible replacements. That blew up in their face, but it wasn't like they didn't accomodate for the loss.[/quote']Too much change increased the chances of things going wrong. If Bard was kept in place, they only had to worry about Papelbon's replacement going sour, but Bard should have remained reliable. They rolled the dice twice and they got burned twice.

 

It's like the example of playing too many guys out of position to fill a vacancy. If you start swapping too many guys into different spots, you have a problem. You may say that is not the case, because we obtained late inning relievers, but I would disagree. Neither of those guys has been in the Boston spotlight and Melancon was largely unproved. Bailey was an injury risk. Both of them brought a substantial risk of failure with them, and the lucky Red Sox came up with F's on both of them.

[ORS]

Too much change increased the chances of things going wrong. If Bard was kept in place, they only had to worry about Papelbon's replacement going sour, but Bard should have remained reliable. They rolled the dice twice and they got burned twice.

 

It's like the example of playing too many guys out of position to fill a vacancy. If you start swapping too many guys into different spots, you have a problem. You may say that is not the case, because we obtained late inning relievers, but I would disagree. Neither of those guys has been in the Boston spotlight and Melancon was largely unproved. Bailey was an injury risk. Both of them brought a substantial risk of failure with them, and the lucky Red Sox came up with F's on both of them.

I don't disagree that more moving pieces introduces more probability that things won't work out. I just disagreed with your wording, which seemed to suggest that they did not address both Papelbon and Bard leaving the bullpen. They had a plan, but it came up craps.

[FredLynn]

I don't disagree that more moving pieces introduces more probability that things won't work out. I just disagreed with your wording' date=' which seemed to suggest that they did not address both Papelbon and Bard leaving the bullpen. They had a plan, but it came up craps.[/quote']

 

They got Melancon to replace Bard. That came out craps.

They got Bailey to replace Papelbon. That came out craps.

They moved Bard into the starting rotation. That came out craps.

They kept McDonald on the roster. That came out craps.

They got Jenks, Germano, Ohlendorf etc. That came out craps.

They drafted numerous pitchers, none of whom are ML ready. That came out

craps.

They keep playing Youkilis instead of WMB. Thats coming out craps.

 

Could it be that there is a pattern here?

[SoxFanForsyth]

They got Melancon to replace Bard. That came out craps.

They got Bailey to replace Papelbon. That came out craps.

They moved Bard into the starting rotation. That came out craps.

They kept McDonald on the roster. That came out craps.

They got Jenks, Germano, Ohlendorf etc. That came out craps.

They drafted numerous pitchers, none of whom are ML ready. That came out

craps.

They keep playing Youkilis instead of WMB. Thats coming out craps.

 

Could it be that there is a pattern here?

 

Going into this season, 4 of the 5 SP were from draft or IFA. There's no argument that their drafted pitchers aren't ML ready.

[a700hitter]

I don't disagree that more moving pieces introduces more probability that things won't work out. I just disagreed with your wording' date=' which seemed to suggest that they did not address both Papelbon and Bard leaving the bullpen. They had a plan, but it came up craps.[/quote']No, my point is that it was too much change that brought too much risk. Sometimes I don't say things precisely enough. Changing the whole back of the pen that had worked so well over several seasons was asking for trouble. Bobby V. has managed the pen very well thus far, so the results have been good overall, but it is a crapshoot night in and night out, because we have no shut down arms in the pen.

[a700hitter]

They got Melancon to replace Bard. That came out craps.

They got Bailey to replace Papelbon. That came out craps.

They moved Bard into the starting rotation. That came out craps.

They kept McDonald on the roster. That came out craps.

They got Jenks, Germano, Ohlendorf etc. That came out craps.

They drafted numerous pitchers, none of whom are ML ready. That came out

craps.

They keep playing Youkilis instead of WMB. Thats coming out craps.

 

Could it be that there is a pattern here?

Truthfully, we are all waiting to see Ben's first good move. There have been none thus far.

[FredLynn]

Truthfully' date=' we are all waiting to see Ben's first good move. There have been none thus far.[/quote']

 

Sending Bard down, albeit too late, was a good move.

And putting Doubront in the rotation has worked out well.

Lets be fair. No one is a total screwup, right?

[a700hitter]

Sending Bard down, albeit too late, was a good move.

And putting Doubront in the rotation has worked out well.

Lets be fair. No one is a total screwup, right?

I was referring to acquisitions. My bad. We are still waiting.

[FredLynn]

Going into this season' date=' 4 of the 5 SP were from draft or IFA. There's no argument that their drafted pitchers aren't ML ready.[/quote']

 

Lester was drafted in June 2002, before Epstein and his lackeys were hired. Beckett was obtained at a high price and his results have been mediocre and inconsistent overall. Buchholz still has to prove his is a good ML pitcher. So does Doubront. And Bard is a mess. Did I forget anyone? Also, my main point is that CURRENTLY there is not a single ML ready pitcher in the minors, unless you can think of one.

[Bellhorn04]

I was referring to acquisitions. My bad. We are still waiting.

 

Ross, Shoppach, Podsednick, and Padilla have all had positive contributions.

[a700hitter]

Ross' date=' Shoppach, Podsednick, and Padilla have all had positive contributions.[/quote']Ross. I'll give you that. The contributions of the others is minor or incidental. I wouldn't call them good moves. They are roster fillers with small roles. I am talking about a meaningful acquisition. Ross was a good move. That slipped my mind.

[Bellhorn04]

Ross. I'll give you that. The contributions of the others is minor or incidental. I wouldn't call them good moves. They are roster fillers with small roles. I am talking about a meaningful acquisition. Ross was a good move. That slipped my mind.

 

I'm assuming he was extremely limited in what he was allowed to spend.

[a700hitter]

I'm assuming he was extremely limited in what he was allowed to spend.

That doesn't preclude trades. He really has done nothing notable thus far into his tenure.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Lester was drafted in June 2002' date=' before Epstein and his lackeys were hired. Beckett was obtained at a high price and his results have been mediocre and inconsistent overall. Buchholz still has to prove his is a good ML pitcher. So does Doubront. And Bard is a mess. Did I forget anyone? Also, my main point is that CURRENTLY there is not a single ML ready pitcher in the minors, unless you can think of one.[/quote']

 

Alex Wilson is likely going to be brought up in the next month or two. 97 mph FB, devastating slider.

 

He recently made the transition to a relief pitcher when the bullpen was struggling. 22 K's in 20.2 IP. 3.05 ERA as a reliever. Struggled early. 2.00 ERA in last 18 IP, 10.00 K/9.

 

He'll be up in the next month or so.

[FredLynn]

Alex Wilson is likely going to be brought up in the next month or two. 97 mph FB, devastating slider.

 

He recently made the transition to a relief pitcher when the bullpen was struggling. 22 K's in 20.2 IP. 3.05 ERA as a reliever. Struggled early. 2.00 ERA in last 18 IP, 10.00 K/9.

 

He'll be up in the next month or so.

 

Alex Wilson represents "potential". When he succeeds at the ML level I will believe that he is ML ready. How many times did Michael Bowden get brought up after tearing it up at Pawtucket only to fail miserably in the ML? Besides, Alex Wilson has pitched a total of 55.1 innings at AAA level ball.This year his ERA is 3.93 with a WHIP of 1.485, hardly a dominant force. He is far from a sure thing. Don't get me wrong-I hope he excels. But he is hardly a seasoned ML ready pitcher right now.

[Bellhorn04]

That doesn't preclude trades. He really has done nothing notable thus far into his tenure.

 

It does preclude certain trades, any that involve taking on a bigger salary.

 

I agree that he hasn't done anything really notable yet.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I wonder, after Aceves's recent struggles, if the FO is contemplating making Bard the closer and putting Aceves back in his 7th/8th inning role. That would be the most beneficial to the team right now.

 

He had a good stretch for a bit, but he still has a 5.02 ERA. He's given up 6 ER over his past 6 outings, too. I don't know - if you ask me, I say let Bard work every other day and go back to the back end of the bullpen.

 

If you put Bard back in the bullpen, it becomes much more of a strength than it has been. And when Alex Wilson is ready (2.00 ERA, 10.00 K/9 in last 18 IP out of bullpen), we should have a solid back end of the bullpen. At the very least, one that can get by and save some games until Bailey is back. At the point Bailey is back, you have to think the bullpen will be a strength.

[Station 13]

I wonder, after Aceves's recent struggles, if the FO is contemplating making Bard the closer and putting Aceves back in his 7th/8th inning role. That would be the most beneficial to the team right now.

 

He had a good stretch for a bit, but he still has a 5.02 ERA. He's given up 6 ER over his past 6 outings, too. I don't know - if you ask me, I say let Bard work every other day and go back to the back end of the bullpen.

 

If you put Bard back in the bullpen, it becomes much more of a strength than it has been. And when Alex Wilson is ready (2.00 ERA, 10.00 K/9 in last 18 IP out of bullpen), we should have a solid back end of the bullpen. At the very least, one that can get by and save some games until Bailey is back. At the point Bailey is back, you have to think the bullpen will be a strength.

 

How do you make roster space for all those guys? Who has to cleared out to make room?