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June 1, 2012: Red Sox @ Blue Jays

SoxFanForsyth
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User Name Boston Red Sox

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You might be referring to my post. When I used the word chronic, I meant that a back injury like his could become chronic in the future. We won't know until he throws a full season. It might not bother him for years. It might not bother him again in his career. But there was some good discussion about it at sosh last year and fractures like these can lead to chronic back issues.

 

Doesn't mean it will, but the possibility is there. I agree it's too early to call him injury prone.

 

No i'm not, which is why i didn't quote you. I believe it was jung who made the reference earlier.

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SoxFanForsyth All-Star

SoxFanForsyth

Old-Timey Member
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How are Clay's injury issues "chronic"? He's had one serious injury (last year) and is currently pitching at full capacity.

 

The injury-prone label is tossed too liberally around here.

 

The same way that Ellsbury is injury prone dude. Come on. Don't you know that?? :harhar:

evilhand College Ball

evilhand

Verified Member
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No i'm not' date=' which is why i didn't quote you. I believe it was jung who made the reference earlier.[/quote']

 

Ah, my bad. I knew I'd used the word chronic in an earlier post.

 

Carry on. :)

jung Worcester Red Sox

jung

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
People disregard Beckett's 8 good starts

 

What eight good starts are you talking about. Look the whole game log, game by game is posted at Baseball Reference. All you have to do is go look at it. I have, and I have posted my characterizations below. You find eight good starts out of that bunch. He has not had 8 great starts...he has not even had 8 good starts. I have no idea what you are looking at. I just don't.

 

game by game:

4/7, Det, Horrible start

4/13, TBR, Great start

4/18, Tex, A bad start

4/24, Minn, A mediocre start (I am being kind here..Minn is terrible)

4/29, CWS, A bad start

5/10, Cleve, A horrible start

5/15, Seat, A great start

5/20, Phil, A good start

5/26, TBR, A good start

5/31, Det, A bad start

 

I think I have been fair in judging these starts based on how Beckett pitched and if anything gave him credit for Minn when in fact they are barely a ML team.

 

Every game is posted up at Baseball Reference. If you want to argue my characterizations, go ahead look at the data and see what you see. Is he trending in the right direction...appears to be. Is he out of the woods? Far from it. If he sticks another stinker on top of the Detroit start he will hardly be any better off today than he was a month ago?

evilhand College Ball

evilhand

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Posted
Posted
Every game is posted up at Baseball Reference. If you want to argue my characterizations' date=' go ahead look at the data and see what you see. Is he trending in the right direction...appears to be. Is he out of the woods? Far from it. If he sticks another stinker on top of the Detroit start he will hardly be any better off today than he was a month ago?[/quote']

 

Are you looking at 2012? I'll paste your characterizations and then my responses game by game.

 

4/7, Det, Horrible start (Agreed)

 

4/13, TBR, Great start (Agreed)

 

4/18, Tex, A bad start (7 IP and 3 ER is a bad start? Since when? If this is your measure of "good" then the vast majority of starters in the majors are bad. He struck out 7 and walked 1. This is borderline great.)

 

4/24, Minn, A mediocre start (6 IP and 2 ER with 5k's and 3 BB is a good start. I don't care who it's against. Saying it's mediocre and that you're being kind is ridiculous.)

 

4/29, CWS, A bad start (6.2 IP and 3 ER with 8k's and 3 BB is a good start. And it's closer to great than mediocre. That's a 4.05 ERA with a 10.81 k/9. That's better than league average by a good margin.)

 

5/10, Cleve, A horrible start (Agreed)

 

5/15, Seat, A great start (Agreed)

 

5/20, Phil, A good start (7.2 IP with 1 ER 5k's and 2BB is only good? That's great no matter how you slice it. That's an ace level performance. 1.17 ERA)

 

5/26, TBR, A good start (7 IP with 2 ER and 5K's is likewise a great start. I don't know what you're looking for but calling this merely good is ridiculous.)

 

5/31, Det, A bad start (I'd call this mediocre, not bad. He went 7, and while he gave up 4 earned and 10 hits, he settled down after giving up his 4th run in the 5th and pitched a scoreless 6th and 7th. Not a good night, but not a bad one, either.)

 

It seems, from looking at the way you classify these games that you're expecting him to be Pedro circa 1999 or 2000. Your criteria for a good or great start are so far beyond what is reasonable, I'm not even sure where you're coming from.

a700hitter Cooperstown

a700hitter

Old-Timey Member
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Something like. You're okay 700. Aside from being a conservative. ;)

:D Thanks. If I didn't get along with liberals, I'd be a very lonely person. I live in NY. As for political philosophy, I was at one time a pot smoking, political science college student writing independent study papers on the development of Lenin's political philosophy. No s***.

FredLynn Greenville Drive

FredLynn

Old-Timey Member
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Posted
You might be referring to my post. When I used the word chronic, I meant that a back injury like his could become chronic in the future. We won't know until he throws a full season. It might not bother him for years. It might not bother him again in his career. But there was some good discussion about it at sosh last year and fractures like these can lead to chronic back issues.

 

Doesn't mean it will, but the possibility is there. I agree it's too early to call him injury prone.

 

I am not sure that is true about fractures predisposing to chronic back problems. I know that fractures in the arm, for example, as long as they are not badly displaced and horrific in nature, just heal up without sequelae. I assume that ordinary minor fractures in the back have the same clinical course. Maybe Jacko knows something else about this sort of thing; I am not an orthopedist, just a pediatrician.

BornToRun Boston Red Sox

BornToRun

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Posted
That is kind of a late start.;)

 

Edit: The good news is that he is too young to drive.:lol:

 

I have my permit but im pretty coherent when I'm plastered . I'd never drive like this.

jung Worcester Red Sox

jung

Old-Timey Member
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Posted

No I am measuring him based on what my expectations would be for a #2 starter on a contending team which is what we continue to suggest here. Although as I had indicated earlier, now I don't know what to call Beckett since Lester has pitched so poorly that some now want to anoint Beckett the #1 pitcher on the staff.

 

The Texas start yielded 3 ER over a 7 inning stretch which is a 4.28 ERA for a game that the Sox eventually lost. Sorry, not a good start. 3 earned runs over a 7 inning stretch in a game they lost???? Calling that a good start is a joke.

 

Minn, a whopping 6 innings pitched...boy that saved the pen now didn't it. 2 ER and 3 BB for 6 innings against Minn. Lucky to call that mediocre.

 

CWS, Again a real pen saver there. 2 ER, 6 innings pitched, 3 walks given up in an eventual losing effort.

 

As for some of my good starts you call great, how can you possibly call a 7 inning performance by the team's #2 starter a great start...good yes, great...no if you can get through 7 innings with no earned runs I will call that a great start by your #2 pitcher.

 

What the hell is a great start anymore? Handing over the game with a "chance" to win...is that now the measure of a great start? Jesus....Gibson must be laughing his ass off.

 

And by my count you totaled 7 good or great starts, not eight. You count 1 mediocre and 2 horrible starts even in your extremely forgiving characterizations.

evilhand College Ball

evilhand

Verified Member
Posted
Posted
I am not sure that is true about fractures predisposing to chronic back problems. I know that fractures in the arm' date=' for example, as long as they are not badly displaced and horrific in nature, just heal up without sequelae. I assume that ordinary minor fractures in the back have the same clinical course. Maybe Jacko knows something else about this sort of thing; I am not an orthopedist, just a pediatrician.[/quote']

 

What makes me worry, even just a little, about possible chronic back issues is the report from NESN last year about Dr. Gill's findings.

 

In that initial exam, Buchholz showed a condition on one side of a portion of his spine that is likely developmental, something that could even stem from childhood. That condition is what helped cause the stress reaction on the other side of the vertebra, which developed in time into a fracture.

 

"There's nothing that he did from a baseball standpoint that can cause a stress response to become a stress fracture, except for the fact that, like I said, if you have that longstanding defect on the one side of the ring it's going to concentrate stress on the other," Gill said. "So, it was probably just a natural progression of that stress response."

 

Read more at: http://www.nesn.com/2011/08/red-sox-medical-director-says-clay-buchholz-absolutely-has-a-chance-to-return-in-2011.html

 

That defect is what concerns me. But again, it's a minor concern at this point.

RedSoxfanforlife305 Boston Red Sox

RedSoxfanforlife305

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
How is it that you are 16 and drinking beer?

 

lol pretty much every teenager drinks

 

That is kind of a late start.;)

 

Edit: The good news is that he is too young to drive.:lol:

 

Here in Florida you can be 16 and drive.

BornToRun Boston Red Sox

BornToRun

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Nice to see the sox won. This is like the 20th game in a row that I miss. Work sucks.

 

At least you come home to find out that the sox won. We got this brother. ;)

SoxFanForsyth All-Star

SoxFanForsyth

Old-Timey Member
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No I am measuring him based on what my expectations would be for a #2 starter on a contending team which is what we continue to suggest here. Although as I had indicated earlier' date=' now I don't know what to call Beckett since Lester has pitched so poorly that some now want to anoint Beckett the #1 pitcher on the staff.[/quote']

 

Beckett has pitched very well as a #2. You'll see, once he has enough starts to where his 2 poor starts don't manipulate the data, his ERA will drop.

 

The Texas start yielded 3 ER over a 7 inning stretch which is a 4.28 ERA for a game that the Sox eventually lost. Sorry' date=' not a good start. 3 earned runs over a 7 inning stretch in a game they lost???? Calling that a good start is a joke.[/quote']

 

Do you know how to calculate ERA? Because 7 IP, 3 ER is a 3.86 ERA. That is a fantastic start against the Rangers, who by the way, have the best offense in baseball and were absolutely scorching hot at the time.

 

Minn' date=' a whopping 6 innings pitched...boy that saved the pen now didn't it. 2 ER and 3 BB for 6 innings against Minn. Lucky to call that mediocre.[/quote']

 

He was at 100 pitches through 6. If it were up to him, I'm sure he would have gone back out there for the 7th, but BobbyV didn't let him, likely because the Sox were up 10-2 at the time and there is no point in keeping him in when they can give him a breather. But that would go against your argument, so you choose to ignore it.

 

CWS' date=' Again a real pen saver there. 2 ER, 6 innings pitched, 3 walks given up in an eventual losing effort.[/quote']

 

That would be 6.2 IP, not 6.0 IP. It's really tough for a bullpen to have to come in and pick up 7 outs isn't it. And man, what a s***** outing. Beckett's ERA this outing was 2.70. Piece of crap Beckett. Unacceptable.

 

As for some of my good starts you call great, how can you possibly call a 7 inning performance by the team's #2 starter a great start...good yes, great...no if you can get through 7 innings with no earned runs I will call that a great start by your #2 pitcher.

 

What the hell is a great start anymore? Handing over the game with a "chance" to win...is that now the measure of a great start? Jesus....Gibson must be laughing his ass off.

 

And by my count you totaled 7 good or great starts, not eight. You count 1 mediocre and 2 horrible starts even in your extremely forgiving characterizations.

 

This is laughable. I love it when people try to compare the game back in the 70's to the game today. It's actually hilarious. Like the game hasn't changed. Like the hitters haven't gotten better. Like the scouting reports aren't better. Like the pitchers aren't having to throw to stronger, more advanced hitters with maximum effort on every pitch.

 

That's a joke, Jung. It really is.

SoxFanForsyth All-Star

SoxFanForsyth

Old-Timey Member
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Is David Price a good #2 SP? Because he's thrown 1 more inning than Beckett this year, for all of this "what a bullpen saver" argument that you have. And if you don't think Price is a good #2, then you're delusional.
BornToRun Boston Red Sox

BornToRun

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I'm not in college yet so still the same place lol. I had to quit the police program I was in though long story.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. Truth is that I always wanted to be a cop growing up and later in life I've come back to the that dream. I'm hoping that I can become a Jersey State Trooper some day. Good luck with whatever you decide to do in life.

RedSoxfanforlife305 Boston Red Sox

RedSoxfanforlife305

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I'm sorry to hear that. Truth is that I always wanted to be a cop growing up and later in life I've come back to the that dream. I'm hoping that I can become a Jersey State Trooper some day. Good luck with whatever you decide to do in life.

 

I'm still going to be a cop. I have no plans on doing anything else. This was just a program for kids that want to get a feel what it's like to be a cop.

BornToRun Boston Red Sox

BornToRun

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I'm still going to be a cop. I have no plans on doing anything else. This was just a program for kids that want to get a feel what it's like to be a cop.

 

Like ride alongs?

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