5/16 @ Rays

[jung]

Well that was a s*** game.

 

We just got totally handled. He's a good pitcher but s***...the Sox got nothin' off him all night and then we did nothin' with the pen. Lotta' holes in this lineup right now.

[redsoxbeatz]

Coooold streaaaakkk

[a700hitter]

Here is how you define shock. Medically, it generally implies blood loss. You can be hypotensive without shock. You gotta be hurt pretty bad to be in shock without losing blood. People faint due to low blood pressure, but are healthy otherwise. They are not in shock. That happens all the time, most commonly in teen age girls.

 

Pathology . a collapse of circulatory function, caused by severe injury, blood loss, or disease, and characterized by pallor, sweating, weak pulse, and very low blood pressure

Are you calling me a girl?

[FredLynn]

When I snapped my humerus bone' date=' I had no blood loss. I remember getting sweaty and faint and the nurse started looking concerned and was taking my blood pressure. I said to her "what's wrong? I thought I just hurt my arm. Is there something wrong?" She told me that I looked to be going into shock. I'm no MD, and I'm not sure what shock is, but she told me that my blood pressure was dropping.[/quote']

 

Lots of people faint when they have blood drawn or an injection. For whatever reason the blood pools in the veins in the legs sometimes and lowers the blood pressure. Thats different than real "shock".

[ellsburyforMVP]

To note the positive about this gm..... We will win alot more than we lose if our pitching only gives up 2 runs...BP has improved dramatically, starters are getting there

[FredLynn]

Are you calling me a girl?

 

Would you like me to?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Buch had one like this coming.

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/cache/location.php-pitchSel=453329&game=gid_2012_05_16_bosmlb_tbamlb_1&batterX=15&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=3.gif

 

This was the AB that did him in. That ball called right in the middle of the zone is unacceptable. Terrible. Then Buchholz balked in the run with 2 outs after the walk.

 

That's why this game was a horseshit loss.

[FredLynn]

Well that was a s*** game.

 

We just got totally handled. He's a good pitcher but s***...the Sox got nothin' off him all night and then we did nothin' with the pen. Lotta' holes in this lineup right now.

 

Its not all bad: we only surrendered two runs. No runs the day before; and one run the day before that. We will win a lot of games if we keep pitching this way.

[jung]

Still and all, only gave up two runs....gotta score enough to win games like this. We don't have a lights out pitching staff no matter who we like or don't like today, who is golfing or who is not.

[jung]

I am a bit concerned about how good our hitting is going to be now that the scouts have had a really good period of time to see our guys and develop their reports. In some cases we will be on our second times through opposing pitchers.

[ORS]

Here is how you define shock. Medically, it generally implies blood loss. You can be hypotensive without shock. You gotta be hurt pretty bad to be in shock without losing blood. People faint due to low blood pressure, but are healthy otherwise. They are not in shock. That happens all the time, most commonly in teen age girls.

 

Pathology . a collapse of circulatory function, caused by severe injury, blood loss, or disease, and characterized by pallor, sweating, weak pulse, and very low blood pressure

Or? That means blood loss is not necessary, doesn't it? And, collapse of circulatory function....as in, instantaneous drop in blood pressure....hence the fainting. Sounds like shock, albeit very temporary to me.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I am a bit concerned about how good our hitting is going to be now that the scouts have had a really good period of time to see our guys and develop their reports. In some cases we will be on our second times through opposing pitchers.

 

Eh I don't think this is too much of a concern. The guys who may be affected by this scouting were the ones who produced tonight. The 1-5 hitters going 1-19 was what did the offense in tonight. Can't have that kind of performance if you want to win games.

[FredLynn]

Or? That means blood loss is not necessary' date=' doesn't it? And, collapse of circulatory function....as in, instantaneous drop in blood pressure....hence the fainting. Sounds like shock, albeit very temporary to me.[/quote']

 

My understanding is that shock implies severe injury, severe illness, or acute blood loss. A teenage girl who faints is not in shock, though her BP is low when it happens. All episodes of low BP are not "shock".

[a700hitter]

Sweeney is coming back to earth. Without a high OBP, he is not all that useful. He has 1 HR in his last 430+ AB's. This guy is 6'4" 240 and he can't hit the long ball.

[jung]

Reason I am concerned is that we just don't have a lotta' guys going good right now. Agons is a big hole in this lineup right now. It really looks like a light lineup against RH pitchers right now. Ortiz is about the only guy we really have going good against RH pitchers. Sweeney is OK but he is not going to put one over the fence.

 

Against the RH pitchers Ross is very much neutralized. Pedey still hits RH pitching pretty good. But when you look at the guys hitting from the left side of plate, we have Salty, AGons, Sweeney, Nava, Ortiz. Other than Ortiz anybody really look scary there? Right now Ross has to play against RH pitchers and he really struggles there. Aviles is not particularly effective against RH pitchers either.

 

And

 

Pretty soon we are going to be into the interleague games needing to put Ortiz in the field and put Agons in the outfield.

 

And

 

Unless something very un-Red-Sox-like happens, we are about to lose WMB for Youk.

 

Do we really look ready to hit a tougher part of the schedule. We have no choice but to play the games but I don't see them with the horsepower to go on a run right now.

 

People kept saying we needed to make hay while we were into the easy part of the schedule. We really did not make much hay there.

[ORS]

My understanding is that shock implies severe injury' date=' severe illness, or acute blood loss. A teenage girl who faints is not in shock, though her BP is low when it happens. All episodes of low BP are not "shock".[/quote']

And a guy who got his arm snapped by a 90+ mph baseball is not a dramatic teenage girl. I'd call that a traumatic injury, maybe not "severe", but plausible enough to send someone into a brief state of shock.

[Station 13]

Sweeney is coming back to earth. Without a high OBP' date=' he is not all that useful. He has 1 HR in his last 430+ AB's. This guy is 6'4" 240 and he can't hit the long ball.[/quote']

 

Well there's Daniel Nava for lead off. :dunno:

[NativeBostonian]

I broke my hand on some guys face in the parking lot. Now to the hospital I go.

[FredLynn]

And a guy who got his arm snapped by a 90+ mph baseball is not a dramatic teenage girl. I'd call that a traumatic injury' date=' maybe not "severe", but plausible enough to send someone into a brief state of shock.[/quote']

 

I don't think thats the opinion of most doctors; I have never heard of a broken arm causing even a brief period of shock, and I don't think shock comes in that flavor anyway. I think you are confusing hypotension (low blood pressure) with shock. They are definitely NOT the same thing. True shock is a medical term that implies blood loss, severe illness, or severe injury. A teenager who faints is NOT in shock; a guy who faints after getting an injection is not in shock either, though if you took their BP it would be low. If the broken arm you are referring to snapped a major blood vessel then its possible that the player was in shock; thats almost impossible to do with a pitched ball. It could happen with more forceful injuries, like in an automobile accident.

You can call it shock if you like. I am not going to argue with you about it, but you are wrong. Here is a decent definition of shock, medically speaking:

 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Shock+(medical)

[ORS]

I don't think thats the opinion of most doctors; I have never heard of a broken arm causing even a brief period of shock, and I don't think shock comes in that flavor anyway. I think you are confusing hypotension (low blood pressure) with shock. They are definitely NOT the same thing. True shock is a medical term that implies blood loss, severe illness, or severe injury. A teenager who faints is NOT in shock; a guy who faints after getting an injection is not in shock either, though if you took their BP it would be low. If the broken arm you are referring to snapped a major blood vessel then its possible that the player was in shock; thats almost impossible to do with a pitched ball. It could happen with more forceful injuries, like in an automobile accident.

You can call it shock if you like. I am not going to argue with you about it, but you are wrong. Here is a decent definition of shock, medically speaking:

 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Shock+(medical)

What teenager are we talking about? I'm trying to be civil about this but you are bringing up the most ridiculous strawman ever. Can we stop talking about teenagers.....or guys who got an injection....this is about someone who suffered a traumatic injury.

 

EDIT: Did you bother to read the info in the link? Hypovolemic shock can be caused by fractures of large bones.

 

Thanks for sharing something that shows how "wrong" I am.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Ugh you people will argue about anything.

[redsoxbeatz]

Ells & CC... If only we had you...

 

Sox just need to hold and not fall back too much before they comeback. If they return and Gonz returns to form life will be good.

 

Something has to be wrong with Gonzalez, right? Even if it's just mental like Bucholz.

[redsoxbeatz]

Gonz is like Our CC now. Tons O' Money w/o the production.

 

7 more years! Hopefully they'll give us at least 4 complete & wondrous seasons.

[FredLynn]

What teenager are we talking about? I'm trying to be civil about this but you are bringing up the most ridiculous strawman ever. Can we stop talking about teenagers.....or guys who got an injection....this is about someone who suffered a traumatic injury.

 

EDIT: Did you bother to read the info in the link? Hypovolemic shock can be caused by fractures of large bones.

 

Thanks for sharing something that shows how "wrong" I am.

 

ORS, I don't mean to be rude, but what business are you in?

I have been a medical doctor for 35 years including lots of time spent in the ICU and the ER. I am telling you what shock really is, and you are offering me a layman's nonsense.I am quite sure that in whatever field you are in, I am the layman.

The ulna and the radius (the bones in the forearm) are not "large bones". The humerus, maybe; the femur in the leg, certainly. I am not saying that its impossible that that guy somehow lacerated an artery leading to hypovolemic shock, but the chances of that are close to nil.

Look, if you don't believe me, why don't you ask Jacko what a person in real "shock" looks like.Its life threatening and it requires aggressive treatment, unlike someone who faints, which occurs all the time.

I will make a deal with you: you don't tell me what medical terms mean, and I won't try to tell you your profession.

This discussion is over.

[jung]

Something has to be wrong with Gonzalez, right? Even if it's just mental like Bucholz.

 

As I have been saying in these forums, I believe there is something wrong with AGonz. I just don't know how solvable the problem is or even whether is it actually physical or if it is fear of irritating or exacerbating a physical problem.

 

AGonz is not swinging at pitches that are the classic green light, go deep pitches for LH hitters unless he has two strikes and even with two strikes, he is so focused on trying to hit line drives to left that he swings feebly at the classic green light pitches for LHer's.

 

Balls inside and low are the classic go deep pitches to the LH hitter. Agonz is not looking for that pitch and basically cannot even handle it at this point.

 

I think AGonz learned something in that Home Run Derby from last year. I don't think he believes that the constant effort to go deep in the Home Run Derby was as much a physical problem for him as the uppercut swing was.

 

There is nothing about regular plate appearances that are the equivalent of the Home Run Derby. So the number of swings cannot be the issue. AGonz appears now to avoid the uppercut swing at all costs even the number you take during a typical at bat or during the four or five at bats of a typical game.

 

Now pitchers have got him really figured out. That should come as no surprise. If I can pick up what he is doing, how easy do you think it is for professional scouts and pitchers to pick it up. Since they now know he is focused on pitches on the outer half between the tops of the knees and the belt line they are teasing him with those. The guys who can really hit there spots are giving him pitches that look like they are pitches he can take the other way. However they end up lower than he really likes or a bit more outside than he really likes. They are teasing him and coaxing him with those until they get two strikes on him and then they are busting him inside. The other way pitchers are going after him is to just pound him inside until they get him out. He got a few hits a few games ago picking on pitches that were right where he likes them now but he is now getting fewer and fewer of those to swing at and the pitchers are now really screwing with his timing, getting him to lunge at the pitches that are almost where he wants or jamming him inside when he is really trying to get his arms extended to take the outside pitch to left field. He is a smart hitter so I am sure he sees this happening and that has really got me concerned because he has not responded by crossing up the pitchers, by looking for that low inside pitch and hammering it deep to right center or right field.

[SoxFanForsyth]

For all of you Gonzo haters, just watch. He's about to go on an absolute tear.

 

He promised a HR for the game today. We'll see. All I know is that this is a guy who wouldn't say something like that unless he was feeling like he was on the verge of being locked in.

[Bellhorn04]

As I have been saying in these forums, I believe there is something wrong with AGonz. I just don't know how solvable the problem is or even whether is it actually physical or if it is fear of irritating or exacerbating a physical problem.

 

AGonz is not swinging at pitches that are the classic green light, go deep pitches for LH hitters unless he has two strikes and even with two strikes, he is so focused on trying to hit line drives to left that he swings feebly at the classic green light pitches for LHer's.

 

Balls inside and low are the classic go deep pitches to the LH hitter. Agonz is not looking for that pitch and basically cannot even handle it at this point.

 

I think AGonz learned something in that Home Run Derby from last year. I don't think he believes that the constant effort to go deep in the Home Run Derby was as much a physical problem for him as the uppercut swing was.

 

There is nothing about regular plate appearances that are the equivalent of the Home Run Derby. So the number of swings cannot be the issue. AGonz appears now to avoid the uppercut swing at all costs even the number you take during a typical at bat or during the four or five at bats of a typical game.

 

Now pitchers have got him really figured out. That should come as no surprise. If I can pick up what he is doing, how easy do you think it is for professional scouts and pitchers to pick it up. Since they now know he is focused on pitches on the outer half between the tops of the knees and the belt line they are teasing him with those. The guys who can really hit there spots are giving him pitches that look like they are pitches he can take the other way. However they end up lower than he really likes or a bit more outside than he really likes. They are teasing him and coaxing him with those until they get two strikes on him and then they are busting him inside. The other way pitchers are going after him is to just pound him inside until they get him out. He got a few hits a few games ago picking on pitches that were right where he likes them now but he is now getting fewer and fewer of those to swing at and the pitchers are now really screwing with his timing, getting him to lunge at the pitches that are almost where he wants or jamming him inside when he is really trying to get his arms extended to take the outside pitch to left field. He is a smart hitter so I am sure he sees this happening and that has really got me concerned because he has not responded by crossing up the pitchers, by looking for that low inside pitch and hammering it deep to right center or right field.

 

Yep, it's officially time to wonder if Gonzo's power is history. 12 homers in 107 games since the All-Star Break. And 5 of those came in a 3-game series in Texas. Take that out and you've got 7 little longballs in 104 games. Yeee-ikes.

 

And of course it can't be said often enough-letting a $154 million, coming off shoulder surgery A-Gon take part in the HR Derby was one of the colossal idiot moves.

[redsoxfan3]

I didn't watch the entire game, but I did catch most of it when I was working on TV and when I got home after work. There is nothing more that I hate than when we beat ourselves. First of all, the Rays are my second most hated team next to the Yankees. I really do not like when we give up runs on a balk and give up another run due to Cody Ross having momentum carrying him backwards on a fly ball, when maybe if his momentum was carrying forward and he didn't lose the ball then that would have prevented a run. I didn't really get a chance to see how the ump was calling balls and strikes in the first seven innings, but I did get to see the ump call balls and strikes when we were up to bat in the 8th and 9th. I thought he was inconsistent and called a lot of pitches that were out of the zone for strikes. I feel like Big Papi should have been walked in the 8th. Gonzalez even came out and said that he had a problem with the umps. There were several calls in the 9th as well that screwed us. I am not one that typically likes to complain about the umping, but when you lose that close of a game, then I think some of those calls really hurt us. Who knows, if a couple of those guys got pitches that were called strikes to actually be called balls, that changes the entire at bat and we could have probably drawn some walks and had some momentum going for us. I do like the never give up attitude that this team has had this year. We have always made a run late in games this year. I really just hope we can beat the Rays today and tie the series and have some momentum going into the series against the Phillies.

[a700hitter]

Yep, it's officially time to wonder if Gonzo's power is history. 12 homers in 107 games since the All-Star Break. And 5 of those came in a 3-game series in Texas. Take that out and you've got 7 little longballs in 104 games. Yeee-ikes.

 

And of course it can't be said often enough-letting a $154 million, coming off shoulder surgery A-Gon take part in the HR Derby was one of the colossal idiot moves.

They were afraid to have him play half a dozen games in RF in interleague to help the tam win some games, but they were fine with letting him take about a hundred or more full out power swings in a home run derby. Unbelievably stupid.

[a700hitter]

For all of you Gonzo haters, just watch. He's about to go on an absolute tear.

 

He promised a HR for the game today. We'll see. All I know is that this is a guy who wouldn't say something like that unless he was feeling like he was on the verge of being locked in.

We need him to be a force in the middle of the lineup. He's not driving the ball the other way at all.