How about Daniel Bard so far?

[User Name]

How can you make an accurate assessment of Bard's potential as an SP off of seven starts? Exercise in futility if ya ask me.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe the key point about Bard right now is that we suddenly have a lot more depth in our relief pitching than we do in our starting pitching. Our bullpen has been performing well for some time now, and we have Tazawa, Mortensen and Melancon in the minors, and Bailey to return at some point. The depth for our starting rotation is thin, even if we do sign Oswalt.

[Dojji]

How can you make an accurate assessment of Bard's potential as an SP off of seven starts? Exercise in futility if ya ask me.

 

Of his potential? No chance. All you can talk about is what he looks like right now. And right now, personally, I'm encouraged by some things. Especially the fact that despite not starting in years he's only gone five-and-out twice. The value of an unfinished product like Bard can be measured in innings pitched as much as in anything else. The biggest thing a kid in Bard's situation can do is not tax the bullpen by having to be yanked, and Bard's done at least that.

 

if he matures into an innings burner with a fluctuating ERA and winds up as a replacement for Wake-in-his-prime, I might be alone in taking that, but I'll take that.

[FredLynn]

Maybe the key point about Bard right now is that we suddenly have a lot more depth in our relief pitching than we do in our starting pitching. Our bullpen has been performing well for some time now' date=' and we have Tazawa, Mortensen and Melancon in the minors, and Bailey to return at some point. The depth for our starting rotation is thin, even if we do sign Oswalt.[/quote']

 

Cook will be returning soon, for whatever he is worth, and DiceK will too. If we sign Oswalt we will be 8 deep in the rotation by around July, just six weeks off. Furthermore, Bard has an inning ceiling and will eventually need to go back to the pen anyway-or be shut down.

[Bellhorn04]

Cook will be returning soon' date=' for whatever he is worth, and DiceK will too. If we sign Oswalt we will be 8 deep in the rotation by around July, just six weeks off. Furthermore, Bard has an inning ceiling and will eventually need to go back to the pen anyway-or be shut down.[/quote']

 

We can't count on Cook or DiceK for diddley squat, you know that.

[JohnGreen2004]

I'm with Bellhorn10, I refuse to place any emphasis on Dice-K or Aaron Cook.

[Station 13]

Tazawa and Wilson should be stretch out as starters now with Bailey and Melancon returning to a crowded bullpen.

[seabeachfred]

Come on guys, why are so many of you holding on with your finger nails insisting we are going to be ok with Bard. He threw another pig of a game today---too many walks and too many pitches. The guy is not a starter and though many of you insist he will be ok in that role when it's all said and done, I take a different tack and have since the start of the season. He is NOT a starting pitcher. He belongs in the pen and sooner or later that's where he'll end up because if Cherington insists that he stay in the rotation the end result will not be pleasant for us. He has really shown us little in the way of consistency, control and ability of getting batters out on a consistent basis.

[Elktonnick]

Come on guys' date=' why are so many of you holding on with your finger nails insisting we are going to be ok with Bard. He threw another pig of a game today---too many walks and too many pitches. The guy is not a starter and though many of you insist he will be ok in that role when it's all said and done, I take a different tack and have since the start of the season. He is NOT a starting pitcher. He belongs in the pen and sooner or later that's where he'll end up because if Cherington insists that he stay in the rotation the end result will not be pleasant for us. He has really shown us little in the way of consistency, control and ability of getting batters out on a consistent basis.[/quote']

 

The problem is what's the alternative for what would be his next start. The Sox have no one who is any better readily available. They have painted themselves in a corner.

[jung]

Frankly I no longer know what Bard is and I don't think the Sox know either.

 

One of my biggest concerns with this whole "experiment" is that I have grown to believe that it is the Sox that do not have their hearts in it. I have not seen anything like the support for a young pitcher trying to make this transition that I would have expected out of Sox Management and Coaches generally.

 

He is not removed from games at points when you would believe there is a golden opportunity for his pitching coach to sit him down and review. Neither the pitching coach nor his manager even come out and talk to him during innings in the same way that they have with Doubront just as an example. It seems to me that he hardly gets any attention at all. We actually have the Sox and their handling of Doubront to place side by side with Bard and I have to say that while I am looking at this from a distance I think the Sox have been much more diligent in their handling of Doubront.

 

I no longer think this was an experiment at all. I think this was the Sox simply deciding that it was in their best interests to get as many innings out of Bard in the 5 hole as they could get. I don't think the Sox give a rats ass about whether he truly has a future as a starter and are just as inclined to see him back in the pen regardless of what all this bouncing around might do to him ala' Joba as an example. I do think that if he excelled as a starter the Sox would have been fine with that but in my view they have not helped the process along at all. It appears to me that they have basically left Bard to his own devices.

 

Maybe this the end to the business of baseball that none of really like to look at. It certainly might say that the Sox do not consider Bard to be the talent that maybe we thought him to be or that we thought the Sox thought him to be.

 

I think they are taking from Bard all that they can get having tossed him into the deep end of the pool. Maybe that is fine. They are certainly a better judge of talent than I am. However it is hard for me not to feel at least a bit of sympathy for the young man because I really have no idea what is going to happen to him next and I doubt he has much of an idea either.

[Elktonnick]

Frankly I no longer know what Bard is and I don't think the Sox know either.

 

One of my biggest concerns with this whole "experiment" is that I have grown to believe that it is the Sox that do not have their hearts in it. I have not seen anything like the support for a young pitcher trying to make this transition that I would have expected out of Sox Management and Coaches generally.

 

He is not removed from games at points when you would believe there is a golden opportunity for his pitching coach to sit him down and review. Neither the pitching coach nor his manager even come out and talk to him during innings in the same way that they have with Doubront just as an example. It seems to me that he hardly gets any attention at all. We actually have the Sox and their handling of Doubront to place side by side with Bard and I have to say that while I am looking at this from a distance I think the Sox have been much more diligent in their handling of Doubront.

 

I no longer think this was an experiment at all. I think this was the Sox simply deciding that it was in their best interests to get as many innings out of Bard in the 5 hole as they could get. I don't think the Sox give a rats ass about whether he truly has a future as a starter and are just as inclined to see him back in the pen regardless of what all this bouncing around might do to him ala' Joba as an example. I do think that if he excelled as a starter the Sox would have been fine with that but in my view they have not helped the process along at all. It appears to me that they have basically left Bard to his own devices.

 

Maybe this the end to the business of baseball that none of really like to look at. It certainly might say that the Sox do not consider Bard to be the talent that maybe we thought him to be or that we thought the Sox thought him to be.

 

I think they are taking from Bard all that they can get having tossed him into the deep end of the pool. Maybe that is fine. They are certainly a better judge of talent than I am. However it is hard for me not to feel at least a bit of sympathy for the young man because I really have no idea what is going to happen to him next and I doubt he has much of an idea either.

 

This is what he wanted. If he has the heart of a champion he will be fine. If not, c'est la guerre!

[a700hitter]

He is not a starter. Today's Oriole lineup was their B lineup without Witers or Hardy. Yet, he still walked 4 and hit a batter. You don't get away with that against the A lineup

[jung]

There is no question at least in my mind that Bard wanted to start. I just don't believe and never believed that he was starting because he wanted to. He was starting because the Sox wanted him to start. If not for that Bard could have wanted to till he was blue in the face and it would not have mattered. I think they gave up on Bard as a Closer for whatever reason although they are never going to say so.

 

The question is, given that Bard could throw (maybe could not do much more but could throw) should they have judged him not worthy of more support than he has gotten? Maybe...I do think that if he does make it, he will mainly have made it on his own steam as I just don't see much of an effort on the part of the Sox to actually work with him to develop his skills as a starter. I think that is what we expected when it was announced.

 

Like I said before, there is a side to baseball that can be harsh. To me it says that the Sox don't think Bard has it. They needed innings from the 5 hole and he has given them innings from the 5 hole. He has probably given them better innings from the 5 hole than they had a right to expect. In the long run I don't think that is going to get him very much in this organization anyway. Maybe at the end of the day he ends up impressing some team enough that they are willing to actually do what we thought the Sox were going to do with him and the Sox end up with someone that they can package as part of a trade.

 

By the time this season is done it looks like the Sox will have an overabundance of mediocre relievers and mediocre starters. I am having a hard time convincing myself that they will keep Bard under those circumstances.

[Elktonnick]

There is no question at least in my mind that Bard wanted to start. I just don't believe and never believed that he was starting because he wanted to. He was starting because the Sox wanted him to start. If not for that Bard could have wanted to till he was blue in the face and it would not have mattered. I think they gave up on Bard as a Closer for whatever reason although they are never going to say so.

 

The question is, given that Bard could throw (maybe could not do much more but could throw) should they have judged him not worthy of more support than he has gotten? Maybe...I do think that if he does make it, he will mainly have made it on his own steam as I just don't see much of an effort on the part of the Sox to actually work with him to develop his skills as a starter. I think that is what we expected when it was announced.

 

Like I said before, there is a side to baseball that can be harsh. To me it says that the Sox don't think Bard has it. They needed innings from the 5 hole and he has given them innings from the 5 hole. He has probably given them better innings from the 5 hole than they had a right to expect. In the long run I don't think that is going to get him very much in this organization anyway. Maybe at the end of the day he ends up impressing some team enough that they are willing to actually do what we thought the Sox were going to do with him and the Sox end up with someone that they can package as part of a trade.

 

By the time this season is done it looks like the Sox will have an overabundance of mediocre relievers and mediocre starters. I am having a hard time convincing myself that they will keep Bard under those circumstances.

 

Now I know why your handle is "Jung". You are over analyzing it. Bard wanted to start. He got his wish regadless of what the FO wanted or didn't want. If he has the heart of lion he'll make the most of it . If not he'll can't say he wasn't given the opportunity. As Thomas Aquinas said, "Life is tough"

[Rdsxmbnt]

There is no question at least in my mind that Bard wanted to start. I just don't believe and never believed that he was starting because he wanted to. He was starting because the Sox wanted him to start. If not for that Bard could have wanted to till he was blue in the face and it would not have mattered. I think they gave up on Bard as a Closer for whatever reason although they are never going to say so.

 

The question is, given that Bard could throw (maybe could not do much more but could throw) should they have judged him not worthy of more support than he has gotten? Maybe...I do think that if he does make it, he will mainly have made it on his own steam as I just don't see much of an effort on the part of the Sox to actually work with him to develop his skills as a starter. I think that is what we expected when it was announced.

 

Like I said before, there is a side to baseball that can be harsh. To me it says that the Sox don't think Bard has it. They needed innings from the 5 hole and he has given them innings from the 5 hole. He has probably given them better innings from the 5 hole than they had a right to expect. In the long run I don't think that is going to get him very much in this organization anyway. Maybe at the end of the day he ends up impressing some team enough that they are willing to actually do what we thought the Sox were going to do with him and the Sox end up with someone that they can package as part of a trade.

 

By the time this season is done it looks like the Sox will have an overabundance of mediocre relievers and mediocre starters. I am having a hard time convincing myself that they will keep Bard under those circumstances.

 

Your theory is that the Sox moved a dominant MR to SP because they just needed someone to fill innings? The Sox paid a huge premium to get Melancon and Bailey, which shows they value good MR's very highly, thus I don't think they are going to remove a dominant MR like Bard just to cover some extra innings.

 

They moved him because they thought his velocity would be higher and that he had a legit chance to be a #2 type SP given his ace stuff (at least in the bullpen). Also the stuff you're saying about them giving up on Bard seems ridiculous. How do you know how much they have worked with Bard? I'm sure a ton of work has put in by Bard and the training staff. Bottom line is the intention of the switch was the hope that he would be as dominant as a SP as he was a MR, it just hasn't been the case.

[jung]

Your right I don't know how much they have worked with Bard which is why I qualified my comment in that regard. It does seem to me that they have been more diligent with Doubront....making more trips to the mound when he is in trouble, doing the kinds of things that I would expect looking at it from the outside looking in where a young pitcher is involved.

 

You guys may be reading to much into what I am posting here. What I am trying to say and I guess doing a pretty bad job of it is that I do not think this has been the Bard Starter experiment as much as it has been Bard as the 5th starter....an end unto itself. If it was the Bard Starter experiment then I would have expected more of what I see them doing with Doubront.

 

If you remember at one point it was being reported that this was going to boil down to which of either Aceves or Bard was going to be more valuable pitching from the pen, not which was going to be more valuable pitching from the 5 hole. From that point onward I thought there was little chance that we would see Aceves as the 5th starter and every chance that we would see Bard as the 5th starter and that is how it worked out. I suspect it worked out that way for that exact reason.

[Elktonnick]

Your right I don't know how much they have worked with Bard which is why I qualified my comment in that regard. It does seem to me that they have been more diligent with Doubront....making more trips to the mound when he is in trouble, doing the kinds of things that I would expect looking at it from the outside looking in where a young pitcher is involved.

 

You guys may be reading to much into what I am posting here. What I am trying to say and I guess doing a pretty bad job of it is that I do not think this has been the Bard Starter experiment as much as it has been Bard as the 5th starter....an end unto itself. If it was the Bard Starter experiment then I would have expected more of what I see them doing with Doubront.

 

If you remember at one point it was being reported that this was going to boil down to which of either Aceves or Bard was going to be more valuable pitching from the pen, not which was going to be more valuable pitching from the 5 hole. From that point onward I thought there was little chance that we would see Aceves as the 5th starter and every chance that we would see Bard as the 5th starter and that is how it worked out. I suspect it worked out that way for that exact reason.

 

If your larger point is the FO is doing Bard a diservice or screwed up his transition to starter then I agree, since it was ill conceived from the onset. But this is what Bard wanted. And the lesson may be; "be careful what you wish for".

[Rdsxmbnt]

 

If you remember at one point it was being reported that this was going to boil down to which of either Aceves or Bard was going to be more valuable pitching from the pen, not which was going to be more valuable pitching from the 5 hole. From that point onward I thought there was little chance that we would see Aceves as the 5th starter and every chance that we would see Bard as the 5th starter and that is how it worked out. I suspect it worked out that way for that exact reason.

 

I don't remember ever reading this and I'd be surprised if it ever was said.

 

I think the big difference between Doubront and Bard is that Doubront had only thrown 35 innings prior to this season and Bard had thrown 200

[Station 13]

I don't remember ever reading this and I'd be surprised if it ever was said.

 

I think the big difference between Doubront and Bard is that Doubront had only thrown 35 innings prior to this season and Bard had thrown 200

 

Huh? Doubront is a starter, always was. Bard is a converting, prior to 2012 he has not started a game since 2007.

[Bellhorn04]

So much analysis. In my opinion Bard is fulfilling a useful function as a #5 starter, and today's game is evidence of that. He wasn't great but he didn't get blown out of the game, leaving with 2 runs on the board.

 

I guess I'm lining up with Dojji on this issue. I don't think what Bard is doing as a starter is as easily replaced as some people think. Look at some of our rotation backenders last year-Lackey, Wakefield, Weiland, Miller...it was ugly. They got Bedard and he could only give us about 4 innings a start.

 

In 2004 our 4th and 5th best starters had ERA's of 4.87 and 5.42. In 2007 our 4th and 5th best starters had ERA's of 4.76 and 5.15.

[Dojji]

Once again I see a kid that starts out really rough, but battles through the first 4 innings, bears down a bit as the start goes on, and finishes up with 5+ and 2 ER against a pretty credible lineup. It's not pretty, but once again he got the job done -- a lot like 2007 Jon Lester in that respect.

 

I'm really starting to respect Bard's ability to gut his way out of rough patches. He really hasn't gotten blown up very often -- only twice in 8 starts. He hasn't had the putaway stuff, and his command isn't great, and he's still getting through the 5th every night and has pitched into the 6th IIRC in every single one of his starts (even the 2 where that turned out to be a mistake). When you don't have putaway stuff or your A-game command, and you can still fight like that, you've got some really good intangibles as a potential starting pitcher.

[a700hitter]

Once again I see a kid that starts out really rough, but battles through the first 4 innings, bears down a bit as the start goes on, and finishes up with 5+ and 2 ER against a pretty credible lineup. It's not pretty, but once again he got the job done -- a lot like 2007 Jon Lester in that respect.

 

I'm really starting to respect Bard's ability to gut his way out of rough patches. He really hasn't gotten blown up very often -- only twice in 8 starts. He hasn't had the putaway stuff, and his command isn't great, and he's still getting through the 5th every night and has pitched into the 6th IIRC in every single one of his starts (even the 2 where that turned out to be a mistake). When you don't have putaway stuff or your A-game command, and you can still fight like that, you've got some really good intangibles as a potential starting pitcher.

Without Wieters and Hardy, the O's did not put out a very good lineup. In fact, it was a pretty crappy lineup. The bottom 3 were hitting under .200 at the start of the game. Betemit sucks and Davis struck out 6 times in a game at Fenway earlier this year. This was not an impressive outing in any manner.

[Bellhorn04]

Without Wieters and Hardy' date=' the O's did not put out a very good lineup. In fact, it was a pretty crappy lineup. The bottom 3 were hitting under .200 at the start of the game. Betemit sucks and Davis struck out 6 times in a game at Fenway earlier this year. This was not an impressive outing in any manner.[/quote']

 

I think you should have left Davis out, since he has a higher OPS than Wieters or Hardy.

[a700hitter]

I think you should have left Davis out' date=' since he has a higher OPS than Wieters or Hardy.[/quote']He sucks. He strikes out way too much.

[jung]

Your comments are in my view correct Bellhorn and I think 700's comments would be correct if "the experiment" perspective was accurate and the difference sort of defines the problem.

 

If you want to buy into the idea that this whole Bard thing is an experiment and the Sox have a keen eye seeing this as having a high degree of potential for turning Bard into a solid 3 or maybe a 2 someday then I can see somebody being less than impressed. However if you resign yourself to this being what I think it is..... Bard is the Sox 5 for this period of time, the Sox want it this way and he is in that role as an end unto itself, not with some grand expectations ala' "the experiment" then it is much easier in my view to accept the idea that the Sox are way getting the better end of this deal. I think that is far closer to the truth and that is what makes the discussion both interesting and relevant.

 

I have gotten to the point where I at least have enough respect for what Bard is doing to wish that the Sox had not packaged this whole thing up the way they did as I think that their actions "from what I can see of Sox/Doubront vs Sox/Bard" do not support the way they had packaged this thing up and I think to some extent they do Bard a disservice.

 

The difference is not insignificant as for some Bard is closer to yet another spoiled rotten Sox player out for himself while underperforming than I think he is. I believe he has proven to be a serviceable 5 that regardless of whether he wanted to start or not, has not received much support and has in my view done pretty well under difficult circumstances. In my view he has been tossed into the deep end of the pool and the Sox seem stingy with even a floaty. Yes he wanted to start...but if you look at the difference in salary for starters why would that be a surprise.

 

Just in this one thread and in these few posts we have some comments about Bard's performances to date that would seem to be based in the idea of "the experiment" and others based on Bard's role as the 5 being an end unto itself.

[FredLynn]

Once again I see a kid that starts out really rough, but battles through the first 4 innings, bears down a bit as the start goes on, and finishes up with 5+ and 2 ER against a pretty credible lineup. It's not pretty, but once again he got the job done -- a lot like 2007 Jon Lester in that respect.

 

I'm really starting to respect Bard's ability to gut his way out of rough patches. He really hasn't gotten blown up very often -- only twice in 8 starts. He hasn't had the putaway stuff, and his command isn't great, and he's still getting through the 5th every night and has pitched into the 6th IIRC in every single one of his starts (even the 2 where that turned out to be a mistake). When you don't have putaway stuff or your A-game command, and you can still fight like that, you've got some really good intangibles as a potential starting pitcher.

 

What credible lineup? The bottom four in their lineup tonite are hitting .223/.206/.143/.059. They had a popgun lineup out there and Bard still struggled. He continues to walk too many batters and does not possess putaway stuff, an "A game", or command of any sort. A real baseball lineup would have put him away in 2-3 innings. Bard is not a SP. Its time to sign Roy Oswalt and gradually get Bard back where he belongs as soon as Oswalt is ready to pitch.

[seabeachfred]

Without Wieters and Hardy' date=' the O's did not put out a very good lineup. In fact, it was a pretty crappy lineup. The bottom 3 were hitting under .200 at the start of the game. Betemit sucks and Davis struck out 6 times in a game at Fenway earlier this year. This was not an impressive outing in any manner.[/quote']

 

I can't really believe some of the stuff I've been reading 700. It is hard to believe that some people here actually believe that Bard has pitched well for us. He hasn't. He's sucked; walked too many people, hasn't gone deep in games, has had trouble putting people away, and his strikeout total has been almost non-existent. What I am also possibly seeing is the undoing of what was a good young pitcher, one who was fitting in nicely where he was (with a few bumps) and who was thrust into a situation that he wanted but wasn't equipped for while the front office fiddled and burned by going along with him. He is NOT a starting pitcher and he never will be.

[Dojji]

Without Wieters and Hardy' date=' the O's did not put out a very good lineup. In fact, it was a pretty crappy lineup. The bottom 3 were hitting under .200 at the start of the game. Betemit sucks and Davis struck out 6 times in a game at Fenway earlier this year. This was not an impressive outing in any manner.[/quote']

 

Take our two best hitters away and our lineup isn't great either. I notice you didn't mention Adam Jones in your little soliloquy. I wonder why.

[Dojji]

I can't really believe some of the stuff I've been reading 700. It is hard to believe that some people here actually believe that Bard has pitched well for us. He hasn't. He's sucked; walked too many people' date=' hasn't gone deep in games, has had trouble putting people away, and his strikeout total has been almost non-existent. What I am also possibly seeing is the undoing of what was a good young pitcher, one who was fitting in nicely where he was (with a few bumps) and who was thrust into a situation that he wanted but wasn't equipped for while the front office fiddled and burned by going along with him. He is NOT a starting pitcher and he never will be.[/quote']

 

If you're stupid enough to try to judge Bard based on what finished products can do, I guess I can't stop you, but it's not a reasonable way to judge what we're seeing.

 

Bard isn't doing any worse for us this year than Lester did in 06. Go look at the numbers if you don't believe me..

[FredLynn]

Take our two best hitters away and our lineup isn't great either. I notice you didn't mention Adam Jones in your little soliloquy. I wonder why.

 

Come on Dojji. Look at the facts. Our lineup is MUCH better than the popgun lineup the Orioles threw at Bard. Betemit is hitting .221. Three guys in their starting lineup today are batting less than that. How many guys in our starting lineup today are batting less than .221? I'll give you a hint: its less than 1. I realize that you obstinately defend whatever the Red Sox do, but when you compare our lineup today with theirs today, it ignores the facts. Our problem has never been our lineup this year: its always been our pitching. And Bard is part of the problem.