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Posted

I'm getting a little frustrated with the over the top angst I'm seeing from people here, and especially from the media.

 

The fact is that Red Sox fans are in the habit of taking the regular season for granted. Each of the last 2 years have forced us to come to terms with the fact that the roster has deteriorated to the point that the regular season is now fully in play. And people don't seem to know how to handle it.

 

People need to recognize the fact that this is no longer a team that can win at will. For awhile it was, certainly while we still had the best one-two lineup combination in baseball, there were a lot of games that we could just throw a switch and take over. That isn't really the case anymore, and people haven't grasped the difference. It's to the point where any prolonged streak of mediocrity is considered a sign of bad character on the team, whether there's any other outward sign of poor character at all.

 

Which is nonsense. Pointing out that we're flawed and less talented than we were is fine. Impugning the character of a team when they fail to win road series only makes sense when that team is expected to win series against 3/4 of the league at any given time and match well against the remaining, also elite teams. The last time this team could win at will was probably 2008. Since then, there have been cracks showing on the roster, and those cracks have grown and widened into significant flaws. And people haven't adjusted their expectations accordingly.

 

The Boston Red Sox are not an elite team by birthright. No team is. Just ask Yankee fans about the 1980's. They were an elite team because they were well managed by a competent front office, which was a radical improvement over what had come before it. Those who remember some of the bad old times know what I'm talking about. Generally speaking, considering our history, this is still the good times. But you'd never know to hear some of the over-spoiled idiots talking.

 

Now we have people demanding "accountability" for a 1-5 start. We just went through an offseason where we fired our manager and let our general manager go. How much more accountability can we really have? What "accoutability" would you impose when you've already replaced all your leadership and the final analysis is that the team simply isn't as talented as past years?

 

And at some point, isn't there a point where the best thing to do is ride it out and take what comes? Do we really have to have wangst parties every time the team starts the first 6 games cold -- which is every year since '06? Does the fact that the Sox might not make the playoffs every year really need to cause this level of overt dismay and rage in the minds of every Sox fan?

 

Because this really starts to get old after awhile.

 

It's really late, and I hope this is semi-coherent, I just had to get it off my chest. Night.

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Posted

Too Long; Didn't Read.

 

Just kidding...Some good points made.

 

While 'adjusting our expectations' according to our current line-up having more/wider flaws sounds logical, it could be be a bad thing too. Next thing you know, we are one of those teams that expect to suck and are o.k. with it based on lowered expectations.

 

I hear you on the "where's the accountability" for the slow start, given the way the season ended last year and the recent changes that followed. We hoped that those things would cause us to start differently, but are seeing that wasn't/isn't the case.

 

All that aside, given our current pitching situation, and how tough our division is this year...We need to have an offense that produces 5-10+runs on average per game in order to have a chance at making the playoffs (imho).

 

The good news is that this whole thing of 'not being able to turn on a switch to win at will', could/should (hopefully) cause us to have to play with heart and to not have some sort of holier than thou attitude given our payroll/big name.

 

Time will tell, good post.

Posted

Eh, it's along season with ups and downs, and when there are downs, people like to vent....I think a fan forum is as good a place as any to do just that.

 

Winning is not a Red Sox fan's birthright, but angst sure is....

Posted

Excellent post George.

 

As with all aspects of life, being a fan of any team requires management of expectations and of disappointment. As Gringo has pointed out, it is a very long season.

 

This team is still very, very talented and I am reasonably certain that they will win more games than they will loose.

Community Moderator
Posted

Dojji, this is how Sox fans have always been. How is this anything new? Fans run hot and cold, it's not the end of the world.

 

Clearly, 2004 didn't change our fanhood.

 

The Sox have been jot garbage since September 1st. Once they go on a winning streak, things won't be as dire. Some people are looking forclosure from last year. I'm not sure if they'll ever get it.

 

It's April. The Sox will be on this weekend. Enjoy it.

Posted
Dojji, this is how Sox fans have always been. How is this anything new? Fans run hot and cold, it's not the end of the world.

 

Clearly, 2004 didn't change our fanhood.

 

The Sox have been jot garbage since September 1st. Once they go on a winning streak, things won't be as dire. Some people are looking forclosure from last year. I'm not sure if they'll ever get it.

 

It's April. The Sox will be on this weekend. Enjoy it.

 

No this is much much worse than its been in the past. All of this started 2-3 years ago. It's an entirely different mentality that proves 2004 changed EVERYTHING and turned this fan base into the insufferable bunch of whiners that the rest of baseball always thought us to be.

Posted
No this is much much worse than its been in the past. All of this started 2-3 years ago. It's an entirely different mentality that proves 2004 changed EVERYTHING and turned this fan base into the insufferable bunch of whiners that the rest of baseball always thought us to be.

 

You are spot on with this. Good post.

Posted
No this is much much worse than its been in the past. All of this started 2-3 years ago. It's an entirely different mentality that proves 2004 changed EVERYTHING and turned this fan base into the insufferable bunch of whiners that the rest of baseball always thought us to be.

 

As an outsider, the sox fans were always insufferable from April through August, then turned into Chicken Little's come Sept 1. By October 1, the sox fans would be in their "wait till next yr" mantra. 2004 changed the sox fans, but not immeasurably. I remember being on another board for the 2005 season and people weren't pissed or upset about not winning it all. 2006, they got a little perturbed. But 2007 changed EVERYTHING. Win it once, and be happy. Win it twice and expect to win every yr. That is when it went from being a singular life changing experience to "We're a dynasty, we are gonna win it every yr!!" 2004 made people happy. 2007 made people impatient and expectant

Posted

Pretty much exactly. It's fine to expect to win a given game or series, or even win it all, but to act like you're ENTITLED to a winning team is ridiculous. It's garbage, and it's setting yourself up for frustration.

 

If a man has set himself up for frustration, and then proceeds to come here and spill that frustration over a whole bunch of other people who might have preferred to have the kind of reasonable fact-driven conversations/arguments about baseball that you can generally have on a well-moderated baseball forum, and this happens again, and again, and on and on, ad nauseam ad infinitum, one might expect the more long-view-oriented elements of that forum to get a little testy about it.

Posted
As an outsider' date=' the sox fans were always insufferable from April through August, then turned into Chicken Little's come Sept 1. By October 1, the sox fans would be in their "wait till next yr" mantra. 2004 changed the sox fans, but not immeasurably. I remember being on another board for the 2005 season and people weren't pissed or upset about not winning it all. 2006, they got a little perturbed. But 2007 changed EVERYTHING. Win it once, and be happy. Win it twice and expect to win every yr. That is when it went from being a singular life changing experience to "We're a dynasty, we are gonna win it every yr!!" [b'] 2004 made people happy. 2007 made people impatient and expectant[/b]

 

Exactly.

 

I hope we win the WS every year. I do not expect to win every year.

Community Moderator
Posted
No this is much much worse than its been in the past. All of this started 2-3 years ago. It's an entirely different mentality that proves 2004 changed EVERYTHING and turned this fan base into the insufferable bunch of whiners that the rest of baseball always thought us to be.

 

We've always been insufferable.

Community Moderator
Posted
No we haven't. Before 2007' date=' a lot of us were too superstitious to be this openly arrogant.[/quote']

 

Sox fans were generally insufferable in their loserdom and misery (wait til next year crap).

 

Has it now taken on a different form? Sure.

Posted
Good post Doj. You are right. Entitlement + short sightedness makes the game much less enjoyable. I find myself falling into letting the teams success on a daily basis actually impact my mood, especially at the beginning of the year. It makes watching and understanding the games much more difficult. It's not a game that lends itself to hypervigalence.
Posted

Personally I will forever be grateful for the 2004 and 2007 championships. I've been with this team since the late 60's and gone through the same intense suffering as other Red Sox fans of my age group. My loyalty to the people who were part of the championship teams has cast me as a pollyanna in some people's eyes.

 

All that said, I do not have a good feeling about the current team. It's just incredible that they are 8-25 in their last 33 games over 2 years. I've never seen a stretch like it. And they've got a potentially brutal home stand coming up. I do understand some of the negative thoughts out there right now.

 

I know this team will rebound at some point but right now I have no feel for when that might happen.

Posted

I don't think it is as much to do with a sense of "entitlement" as it is with the exptations. For the last couple seasons we have had one of the highest payrolls and have given out huge contracts to guys, only to see this team come out flat and then collapse when it mattered. What pisses me off isn't just the 1-5 start following all the s*** that happened last year. It's the fact that our supposed pitching staff leader has a terrible attitude and seems to only pitch up to his contract once every leap year. It's Lackey throwing the blame everywhere but towards himself. It's about Crawford faltering to the pressure of Boston, the way they've handled Bard and the pen, the 40-year-old washed up starter experiments that are no surprise when they fail misserably, the $12 million contract thrown at a reliever who hasn't done anything in years and is a dumbass. It's trading your starting SS just to move a couple million $ off the books when the difference represents less than 1% of the payroll.

 

I just don't really like this team. The '04 and '07 Redsox might not have been the most talented, flashy, or or stacked team, but they had character. They had confidence, comradery, they CARED. This team has too many overpaid players who don't have their head where it belongs.

 

That's not to say I don't root for the team but if I had to choose between a stacked roster and a roster of gritty BASEBALL players who love the game and build a strong lockerroom, I pick the latter. I know that no team is perfect, but I expect professional athletes to actually love what they do and be committed to excelence, not just care about picking up another paycheck or folding when things get tough. I don't need a perennial championship team, just a team I can be proud of.

Posted
The 2004 and 2007 teams were among the most flashy, talented, stacked teams in baseball those years. Manny and Papi atoned for a lot of sins both years.
Posted
The 2004 and 2007 teams were among the most flashy' date=' talented, stacked teams in baseball those years. Manny and Papi atoned for a lot of sins both years.[/quote']

 

2004: Schilling and Pedro.

 

2007: Schilling, Dice-K and Beckett.

Posted

I think our lineup especially once CC is back is actually pretty potent, not deteriorated. Maybe it's time to trade away Youk to get a pitcher & bring up Lavarnway & Iggy.

 

But yeah, Red Sox fan and all New England Sports Fans have extremely high expectation, win it all or nothing, since the past 10+ years we've won something like SEVEN world championships. Boston is a greedy fan base!

 

But, I can also see the Sox finishing in 3rd/4th place in the AL East this year...

Posted
I'm getting a little frustrated with the over the top angst I'm seeing from people here, and especially from the media.

 

The fact is that Red Sox fans are in the habit of taking the regular season for granted. Each of the last 2 years have forced us to come to terms with the fact that the roster has deteriorated to the point that the regular season is now fully in play. And people don't seem to know how to handle it.

 

People need to recognize the fact that this is no longer a team that can win at will. For awhile it was, certainly while we still had the best one-two lineup combination in baseball, there were a lot of games that we could just throw a switch and take over. That isn't really the case anymore, and people haven't grasped the difference. It's to the point where any prolonged streak of mediocrity is considered a sign of bad character on the team, whether there's any other outward sign of poor character at all.

 

Which is nonsense. Pointing out that we're flawed and less talented than we were is fine. Impugning the character of a team when they fail to win road series only makes sense when that team is expected to win series against 3/4 of the league at any given time and match well against the remaining, also elite teams. The last time this team could win at will was probably 2008. Since then, there have been cracks showing on the roster, and those cracks have grown and widened into significant flaws. And people haven't adjusted their expectations accordingly.

 

The Boston Red Sox are not an elite team by birthright. No team is. Just ask Yankee fans about the 1980's. They were an elite team because they were well managed by a competent front office, which was a radical improvement over what had come before it. Those who remember some of the bad old times know what I'm talking about. Generally speaking, considering our history, this is still the good times. But you'd never know to hear some of the over-spoiled idiots talking.

 

Now we have people demanding "accountability" for a 1-5 start. We just went through an offseason where we fired our manager and let our general manager go. How much more accountability can we really have? What "accoutability" would you impose when you've already replaced all your leadership and the final analysis is that the team simply isn't as talented as past years?

 

And at some point, isn't there a point where the best thing to do is ride it out and take what comes? Do we really have to have wangst parties every time the team starts the first 6 games cold -- which is every year since '06? Does the fact that the Sox might not make the playoffs every year really need to cause this level of overt dismay and rage in the minds of every Sox fan?

 

Because this really starts to get old after awhile.

 

It's really late, and I hope this is semi-coherent, I just had to get it off my chest. Night.

Blah blah blah blah blah. :lol::lol: No seriously, good post. I agree with the sentiment. I also agree with Yeszir that 2004 changed everything. I don't know if there is a sense of entitlement, but there certainly is an expectation that the Sox will be good every year. Look at this off season. Essentially, the FO did not improve upon the team. They did very little. Last year's team s*** itself down the stretch. A number of other teams made massive improvements and we stayed pat. The one good move made by the FO has already blown up in its face-- Bailey. Pitching needs were not addressed, nor were other needs like SS. Yet, our fans have very lofty expectations. These expectations are the result of 2004 and 2007. There are seasons when the expectations are justified like 2011. Everyone thought the Sox had juggernaut. It all fell apart and it was devastating, because our expectations were so high. In 2012, we are returning essentially the same group less our lights out 8th and 9th inning guys and we are expecting a Championship? There's your feeling of entitlement (if you want to call it that) right there. That's why people are freaking out, because reality is not matching expectations right now. This team has a lot of talent, and it's a long season. They could be a playoff team. We just don't know, but based on the off season moves we had no reason to expect this team to come charging out of the gate. If you did, you are freaking out. If you looked at the personnel and the disarray in the pen and our April schedule, you should have anticipated a rough ride. We opened on the road. Detroit is really good, so is Tampa and so are the Yankees. Each of those teams is materially improved from opening day 2011. We are not. Each of them were better than us in 2011, so what reasons did we have to think about a fast start? The expectations are always way too high, but if some people don't agree they are mocked. I am very unhappy with the way things are going, but I'm not ready to surrender my RSN membership. I am looking forward to the team returning to Fenway and going to see the MFYs next Saturday and view my brick on Sunday. Go Red Sox!!
Posted
We've always been insufferable.

 

Yes we have.

I have been following this team for over 50 years. Some of you are apparently much younger and don't have the kind of perspective I have. Red Sox fans have ALWAYS been a very emotional insufferable and ardent group of fans. I have lived all over the country and I have made it all the way to California. There are no fans anywhere like us. Yankee and Phillies fans probably come the closest.

Nothing is going to change this. There will be people at all ends of the fan spectrum, from those who take everything in stride to those who live and die with each pitch.

I hope this board continues to be a free speech sort of outlet (within the limits of decency) for ALL baseball fans to come in and express their views on all things baseball.

Posted

Every fan in baseball hopes that their team wins the World Series every year. The reality of that is up to the fan. Knowing whether your team is talented enough to make the playoffs to even get a shot to win the World Series is the perception of the fan. Some fans have a blind outlook on reality in terms of their team. For instance, my brother is a Twins fan and thinks that they can compete with the Tigers this year. When he said that, I just ignored it. My perspectve as a Sox fan is that we do have the talent to win the World Series this year, but I also do know that there are a lot of other factors involved. If we have injury to Beckett, Lester, or Buchholz, then that chance quickly starts to decrease. There are so many questions with every team that it is hard to predict anything this early on in the season. It takes an injury to Verlander, Cabrera, or Fielder and the Tigers chances are a lot less likely.

 

We did get spoiled with winning championships in 2004 and 2007. Those are two seasons that I am really thankful for. Neither of those seasons has an impact on my thinking for this season. We have a lot of talent on this team. A lot of guys need to fulfill their potential and come through for us this season if we want to make the playoffs. One big thing is that hopefully Crawford will have a better season when he returns and can spark this team. I look at Pedroia as the one that is the leader of the clubhouse and the guy that keeps everyone going. He has looked good so far this year coming up with several key hits. I guess the point I am trying to make is that each fan can choose to view this team and think of this team at his or her's own discretion. There are a lot of pessimistic fans, just as there are neutral and optimistic. Either way, I have fun discussing things with every type of Red Sox fan, just as long as the fan gives a logical opinion and backs up assessments with facts.

Posted

I'm glad to see that so many of you refuse to get down and are hoping for better days ahead, and maybe we will get them. I happen to be one of those fans who is subject to go off on a rant when I see our team playing as they have since last September, and I think you people deserve better than that so I am going on a hiatus from this board for a month to cool down. When I get back on May 12, I think it will be obvious whether this slump is temporary or whether we are in for a very bad year. If the latter's the case I will have accepted it by then and hope the team will promote some of their younger players like Middlebrooks, Lavarway and Iglesias and start retooling by also jettisoning some of the old crew.

 

Good luck to all of you and to the Red Sox. See you in a month.

Posted
Good post Doj. You are right. Entitlement + short sightedness makes the game much less enjoyable. I find myself falling into letting the teams success on a daily basis actually impact my mood' date=' especially at the beginning of the year. It makes watching and understanding the games much more difficult. It's not a game that lends itself to hypervigalence.[/quote']

 

They're all good posts EX1 and it is good to see so many of you upbeat. I happen to be really pissed off at what I've been seeing so far and think the team is in real trouble. I hope I'm wrong, but either way I will not allow myself to subject the good guys here to any of my rants so I am going off board for a month. When I come back on May 12, I hope things will be different, but either way we will know by then which way the team is going.

 

I don't know the ages of the people on this board; I would assume it is a younger set than on two of the other boards I post on, but I do know none of you deserve to have to hear me go off on a rant. Best I take a vacation. As many of you know, I am a Red Sox convert and will celebrate 12 years of it on August 19. I am no better fan than any of the rest of you but I seem to take losses a hell of a lot harder. Any way you and the rest of the guys take care. GO RED SOX!!!!!!!

Old-Timey Member
Posted

I am not sure the sense of entitlement some fans have is a result of 2004 and 2007 as much as those championship seasons gave rise to the idea that we finally have the right formula to truly compete year in and year out and go all the way some of those years.

 

We are no longer the private playpen of Mr. Yawkey and his oddball take on team building. As dedicated as he was to the Sox he really did not have much else going for him.

 

The ownership groupings that followed and the propensity to act like a bridge to some future none of us could really divine is also gone and goodbye.

 

Here comes Mr. Henry with all his millions and his belief in contemporary baseball metrics. Low and behold, championships! Holy Cow we are spending with the Yanks, toe to toe, mano a' mano and we are beating those *******s. Well we were sort of spending with the Yanks but not really.

 

On a percentage of revenue basis we actually have spent a great deal of money but this ownership group cannot realistically spend year for year with the yanks dollar for dollar. In addition for all Mr. Henry's belief in baseball ala' James, we have not been all that sharp with regard at least to FA talent. Since the preponderance of money ends up going in that direction, the results look like a hell of a lotta' waste.

 

I don't think we were prepared as fans for the reality of shelf life especially for somebody that truly treats a sports franchise like a business as is the case with JH and his cohorts. So as a group we were neither prepared for the Sox apparent ineptitude when it comes to FA signings and even less prepared for JH to turn back the spigot on spending. I can still remember some of the posts right after BC announced to the world that this would be a year of austerity.

 

"They can't turn off the tap that fast" "Its a smoke screen"

 

Oh really! Just watch em'.

 

The whole idea constructed I think by the fan base of having a "formula" for competing with the Yankees now seems ill conceived as the Yankees are only one of our problems competitively, most of the others coming from teams that don't spend as much as we do, never mind the Yankees.

 

So I think what is shattered is the dream of a long term formula that would put us at the competitive pinnacle of the AL, year in and year out. Some of us are pissed about that and maybe rightfully so. When you have this much money and spend it that ineptly you do have to wonder. In fact that is likely exactly what happened to JH cause in many ways it is his money! Whatever formulaic method of team building the Sox have been using under JH, I don't think he believes in it any longer. He may no longer believe in owning this team for much longer. That would not surprise me either.

 

While it has made for great competitive fodder for as many years as I can remember I suspect the sooner we stop concentrating on the Yankees both as fans and as an organization the sooner we step more firmly into the future and the next iteration of this team. We can't do this the way the Yankees do this. It won't work. We may beat them but we are not going to beat them at their own game.

 

Somehow this organization has to find the will to spend its wealth of resources more wisely, to build for the future and care for the present equally. It may take a new ownership group. There may just be to much blood and worse to much s*** in the water at this point for this bunch. Besides, JH has got to be getting antsy about taking his profits. That may be as much the problem as anything else.

 

Notice I have avoided any discussion of the September collapse of 2011...why? Because I believe as Bill Parcells does that you are what you are. We were a 3rd place team that did not make it to the post season cause that is what we were, not because of chicken and beer or the moon and the stars or Tito or some other damn thing.

Posted

I just don't think there's so much need for fan morale to be so far into the toilet. We're letting some things affect us and they really don't need to.

 

If I hadn't learned how to bounce back emotionally from disappointment and frustration I would have committed suicide by now. You need to rebalance yourself with this crap goes wrong. And that includes the disappointing September collapse.

 

Personally? 2003 was worse. By a lot. We were one inning from the World Series in 2003. You have to do a lot of "ifs" to get 2011 Sox to the Series. September showed me that this team wasn't going to win, and any time you don't actually win, you have to deal with the frustration and then move on.

 

Remembering the bad times and dwelling on the disappointments will just poison the relationship between a team and its fans.

 

Instead do what Revolutionary War hero Nathaniel Greene said once when he was trying to build a peasant army that could hold off the Evil Empire of his day: "We fight, get beat, rise and fight again."

 

Ladies and gentlemen? Time to rise and fight again.

Posted
I am not sure the sense of entitlement some fans have is a result of 2004 and 2007 as much as those championship seasons gave rise to the idea that we finally have the right formula to truly compete year in and year out and go all the way some of those years.

 

We are no longer the private playpen of Mr. Yawkey and his oddball take on team building. As dedicated as he was to the Sox he really did not have much else going for him.

 

The ownership groupings that followed and the propensity to act like a bridge to some future none of us could really divine is also gone and goodbye.

 

Here comes Mr. Henry with all his millions and his belief in contemporary baseball metrics. Low and behold, championships! Holy Cow we are spending with the Yanks, toe to toe, mano a' mano and we are beating those *******s. Well we were sort of spending with the Yanks but not really.

 

On a percentage of revenue basis we actually have spent a great deal of money but this ownership group cannot realistically spend year for year with the yanks dollar for dollar. In addition for all Mr. Henry's belief in baseball ala' James, we have not been all that sharp with regard at least to FA talent. Since the preponderance of money ends up going in that direction, the results look like a hell of a lotta' waste.

 

I don't think we were prepared as fans for the reality of shelf life especially for somebody that truly treats a sports franchise like a business as is the case with JH and his cohorts. So as a group we were neither prepared for the Sox apparent ineptitude when it comes to FA signings and even less prepared for JH to turn back the spigot on spending. I can still remember some of the posts right after BC announced to the world that this would be a year of austerity.

 

"They can't turn off the tap that fast" "Its a smoke screen"

 

Oh really! Just watch em'.

 

The whole idea constructed I think by the fan base of having a "formula" for competing with the Yankees now seems ill conceived as the Yankees are only one of our problems competitively, most of the others coming from teams that don't spend as much as we do, never mind the Yankees.

 

So I think what is shattered is the dream of a long term formula that would put us at the competitive pinnacle of the AL, year in and year out. Some of us are pissed about that and maybe rightfully so. When you have this much money and spend it that ineptly you do have to wonder. In fact that is likely exactly what happened to JH cause in many ways it is his money! Whatever formulaic method of team building the Sox have been using under JH, I don't think he believes in it any longer. He may no longer believe in owning this team for much longer. That would not surprise me either.

 

While it has made for great competitive fodder for as many years as I can remember I suspect the sooner we stop concentrating on the Yankees both as fans and as an organization the sooner we step more firmly into the future and the next iteration of this team. We can't do this the way the Yankees do this. It won't work. We may beat them but we are not going to beat them at their own game.

 

Somehow this organization has to find the will to spend its wealth of resources more wisely, to build for the future and care for the present equally. It may take a new ownership group. There may just be to much blood and worse to much s*** in the water at this point for this bunch. Besides, JH has got to be getting antsy about taking his profits. That may be as much the problem as anything else.

 

Notice I have avoided any discussion of the September collapse of 2011...why? Because I believe as Bill Parcells does that you are what you are. We were a 3rd place team that did not make it to the post season cause that is what we were, not because of chicken and beer or the moon and the stars or Tito or some other damn thing.

 

Most of the attention goes to the recent failures with big-dollar free agency signings. But what doesn't get as much attention is the team's recent failures in bringing MLB-ready talent up from their system. I guess this is stating the obvious, but if you have good young pitchers like the Rays, you don't have to pay huge dollars signing guys like Matsuzaka and Lackey.

Posted
I get really worn down following/posting/reading baseball over the course of the season. I usually burn my self out by mid June and have to take a step back and follow more casually until August. Once the playoff chase starts, my excitement ratchets back up. For me it's almost impossible to be obsessed for 8 months out of the year. I don't know how some of you guys do it.

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