I liked Bard tonight.

[ORS]

Since you didn't even see the game how the hell are you in position to me that I didn't see or couldn't tell what was obvious that McClure was upset over Bard's pitch selection. Talk about intellectual dishonesty.

How is it intellectually dishonest? Intellectually, I oppose any attempt to assign an opinion to a character of authority, ie the pitching coach, that aligns with your own in order to validate your opinion on something as flimsy as "body language".

 

Now I am pissed!

Careful....

Yes I find it incredible that they get so worked up of one person's opinion and interpetation of events.

Pot, kettle....kettle, pot.

[iortiz]

Personally Bard should be in the Pen, It's not about last night believe me he did alot better then Lackey

did all season. I truly believe Cook with the way he has pitched will be up by the end of the month

and Bard back in the pen just my opinion though.

 

If we were strong enough in the pen I would be ok with this Bard experiment. Since we are not, now you are experimenting in both BP and rotation and in the meantime these experiments are costing us games.

[a700hitter]

And you think arguing with me about how argumenative I'm being somehow helps the situation that you find overly argumentative? There's a disconnect between what you want and how you act.

 

I'm fine with leaving it at his opinion. Ie, "I think Bard needs to mix it up more". Leave it at that. I take issue with reading the tea leaves to find confirmation from the coaching staff. If you don't know what the coach said, you can't put him on your side. That's it.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just observing that it is a pointless argument that is boring. The two of you are wrestling over this like two dogs with a bone. Sometimes many of us don't know when to let go. Save the pot/kettle remarks all of you. I realize that I am too often one of those people. This is going nowhere but down--this discussion.

[pedroias laser]

Thanks you I deeply appreciate that!

 

Anytime Elk!!. I agree with you on this one especially when ORS did not even watch

the game lastnight. I did and saw exactly what you were speaking about with Bard and

not throwing one single OFFSPEED pitch until his 50th which is unheard of.

[a700hitter]

How is it intellectually dishonest? Intellectually, I oppose any attempt to assign an opinion to a character of authority, ie the pitching coach, that aligns with your own in order to validate your opinion on something as flimsy as "body language".

 

 

Careful....

 

Pot, kettle....kettle, pot.

^ I knew this was going nowhere good.

[a700hitter]

Anytime Elk!!. I agree with you on this one especially when ORS did not even watch

the game lastnight. I did and saw exactly what you were speaking about with Bard and

not throwing one single OFFSPEED pitch until his 50th which is unheard of.

Plus, Remy did back up what he is saying.

[pedroias laser]

If we were strong enough in the pen I would be ok with this Bard experiment. Since we are not' date=' now you are experimenting in both BP and rotation and in the meantime these experiments are costing us games.[/quote']

 

Exactly i feel the same way. I would approach Bard though if it does come down to this

with kid gloves though. Cook should be in the rotation shortly though and if Dice-K keeps

showing signs of life down in FL then we might have something.

[pedroias laser]

Plus' date=' Remy did back up what he is saying.[/quote']

 

He sure did and when i was watching i was dumbfounded to see something like that.

Maybe Bard still has the Pen mentality where obviously he doesn't know when to mix

his pitches.

[iortiz]

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just observing that it is a pointless argument that is boring. The two of you are wrestling over this like two dogs with a bone. Sometimes many of us don't know when to let go. Save the pot/kettle remarks all of you. I realize that I am too often one of those people. This is going nowhere but down--this discussion.

 

I've been part of this circle discussion situations, and my head wants to explode at times . I promised myself drop it when the discussion go nowhere, in the end all is about opinion.

[ORS]

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just observing that it is a pointless argument that is boring. The two of you are wrestling over this like two dogs with a bone. Sometimes many of us don't know when to let go. Save the pot/kettle remarks all of you. I realize that I am too often one of those people. This is going nowhere but down--this discussion.

I agree that this is dragging the discussion down, but I have my reasons. I'm trying to establish that I take issue with people who try and prop up their opinions as being supported by people who's complete thoughts are not on the record. State what you have to state and argue your own opinion. If a character of authority is on the record stating the same opinion, then it is acceptable to use that as validation. If not, then you have no validation. That's all.

 

You see this here all too often, IMO. Mazz said so and so. Who cares, who the f*** is Mazz? Carfardo wrote this. Don't care. I can tell the coach wanted this. Did he say it? No, doesn't count. The FO wants to do this. How do you know?

 

I'm not saying this from a position where I claim to be free from participating in this behavior. I just want to see it stop, and I'm trying to edit myself from doing it in the future.

[ORS]

Anytime Elk!!. I agree with you on this one especially when ORS did not even watch

the game lastnight. I did and saw exactly what you were speaking about with Bard and

not throwing one single OFFSPEED pitch until his 50th which is unheard of.

50 straight fastballs, is that what happened?

[jung]

No, 50 straight FB is not what happened. Bard did throw to many FB in the first inning. The Jays were sitting FB and Bard's location with it was not great. Good lesson in location cause even throwing 97, when the hitters are sitting FB, your location is bad and you have given no indication that you are going to throw anything but FB, you are meat. Bard was throwing his slider along with his FB by the second inning and while he did not throw the Change until later in the game his slider was so nasty that the Jays really could not do anything with it. While Bard was mixing his Slider by the second inning the hits they got off of him even at the point of mixing the slider came off of his FB.

 

Bard threw a bunch of Changes late in his stint. Wish he had thrown it a little earlier but that Slider was nasty. Bard needs more help I think from his coaches and he definitely needs more help from his battery mate as they work through innings and work through hitters in innings. Bard needs to build his confidence particularly in the Change. A good many pitchers would give their left nut to have that Slider. His Change is not terrible though. It is not great yet cause he is not throwing it with quite the same arm angle and the same motion as his FB (the key to a truly effective Change).

 

Very encouraging outing I thought particularly since if you told me he would continue to not be able to work through innings and hitters in innings for a career as a starter I would be very surprised.

[SoxSport]

Has V been quoted that he will start Lavarnway at catcher if he gets called up? I read that in Dirt Dogs tonite. No source. Could be V is not satisfied with Salty's game calling.

[User Name]

Anytime Elk!!. I agree with you on this one especially when ORS did not even watch

the game lastnight. I did and saw exactly what you were speaking about with Bard and

not throwing one single OFFSPEED pitch until his 50th which is unheard of.

 

I'm not trying to drag this out, but i'm rather genuinely curious?

 

What does watching or not watching the game has to do with identifying pitch selection when there are tools better than the naked eye readily available online?

 

and....

 

How can you guess what someone is thinking under the flimsy argument of body language, specially something that is not obvious like discontent with pitch selection?

[Station 13]

Beside the changeup, can Bard be taught any other pitches? Adding a cutter that breaks like a hard slider?

 

When he was drafted, a cutter was in his scouting report. As well as a curveball.

 

A changeups are usually the last pitch to mastered for many.

[Elktonnick]

People you missed the point of why I am pissed. I saw something rightly or wrongly. One can disagree with what I saw if one was watching But he never watched the game. So he was in no position to call me a liar. If he had watched the game he would have some authority to make that observation. But he didn't watch the game. So he had no basis on which to object other than to be a contrarian. He literally didn't know what he was talking about .That is intellectual dishonesty. Why anyone would pay any attention to anything he posts from here on in beats me.

[Elktonnick]

Beside the changeup, can Bard be taught any other pitches? Adding a cutter that breaks like a hard slider?

 

When he was drafted, a cutter was in his scouting report. As well as a curveball.

 

A changeups are usually the last pitch to mastered for many.

 

Bard did throw his slider in the first three innings. I never said he threw fifty straight fastballs but that he threw too many fastballs. He did throw a slider, He was a two pitch pitcher until pitch 50 He didn;t throw a changeup until pitch 50. Any one we actually saw the game could see the Jays were sitting dead red.

[iortiz]

Scout on Bard: 'Like him better in pen'

 

By Gordon Edes | ESPNBoston.com

RECOMMEND0TWEET10COMMENTS28EMAILPRINT

TORONTO -- Here's one scout's postmortem on Daniel Bard's first big-league start:

 

"He was OK, but I still like him better out of the bullpen. I know he said he was changing speeds on his fastball, but he lost three miles [per hour] off his slider, too. I think he was getting tired. It's really tough to be a two-pitch pitcher and start. The changeup? Not much there.

 

"But it really doesn't matter what I think, or Bobby [Valentine] thinks or anybody else thinks. It will all show up. I think it will be either very good, or very bad. They probably should have gone out and gotten another starter, but they bet big, and I think they've got to give it two months and see how it goes.''

 

According to Inside Edge, Bard averaged 96 mph through his first 45 pitches, then tapered to an average of 93 by the 75th pitch.

 

"That's OK,'' the scout said, "but that shows me he was getting tired."

 

Bard also maintained an 83 mph average on his slider through his first 30 pitches, and tapered off to 80.

 

Bard said he felt strong and thought he had another 25-30 pitches in him when Valentine took him out. Velocity doesn't tell all, by any means, and according to Inside Edge, only 2 of 23 balls were hit well off Bard, an .087 percentage. He also had 18 swings and misses, 9 each on his fastball and slider.

[SoxSport]

Cafardo in the Globe this morning says scouts around baseball think Bard is the best closer on the team right now. He also says it seems some of their personnel decisions were made before spring training.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2012/04/12/in_this_situation_they_arent_helpless/

 

The Sox could use a spark on their team right now--much like the Celtics got when Bradley became a starter.

[User Name]

Cafardo in the Globe this morning says scouts around baseball think Bard is the best closer on the team right now.

 

[VA Sox Fan]

 

[jung]

I think "They bet big" is really the way to think about the whole Bard as a starter thing. They could have made him the closer. That had its own set of risks attached to it as well. Nothing is a sure bet.

 

I think the Sox are less content with their starting pitching than the Sox faithful and less focused on going all the way this year than the Sox faithful. That does not mean they would not love to go all the way but they do not appear to me to be pulling out all the stops this year. We have some examples of teams that believe this is their year to pull out all the stops. Red Sox don't look like one of them to me.

 

I for one don't expect any team to pull out the stops every year and I don't think the Sox starting pitching is that great either. You would think letting Cook get some innings in down on the farm is the equivalent of keeping Sandy Koufax in hiding. Cook will be up at some point this year. I am confident of that. When he gets here don't expect any Justin V like performances nor anything even close.

 

So, I am OK with the Sox vetting Bard as a starter now.

 

The Sox are a frustrating team for me to watch because they just don't play baseball they way I like to see it played. Their defense is porous. The mental and physical mistakes this team is capable of making in the field are going to make them very tough for me to watch cause I not fond of that kind of baseball. Give me a well balanced team that can pitch some and play defense. Not real keen on teams that bleed runs every time they put a baseball glove on hoping that in their half inning they will bash out enough runs in response to stay in the game. But that is just me and who gives a damn what I like anyway.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Just to be clear on how unlucky Bard was in his first start, here are some stats:

 

1. He had 11 ground balls, 6 of which went for hits.

2. His BABIP was .471. That's an insane number.

3. He only stranded 44% of baserunners.

4. He had 18 (!!!!!) swing and misses in just 5 innings. That's outrageous.

5. Although I'm against using FIP, I will use it here because it would at least normalize these numbers. His ERA right now is 9.00. His FIP is 0.99. His xFIP is 1.82.

 

He had an excellent start, but he was hosed by terrible luck.

 

By the numbers, his 64.7% ground ball rate should have resulted in an outstanding outing, as ground balls result in the lowest runs (Line drives are death to pitchers, while ground balls are the best for a pitcher. In numerical terms, line drives produce 1.26 runs/out, fly balls produce 0.13 R/O, and ground balls produce only 0.05 R/O).

 

He basically just got about as screwed as a pitcher could get in his first outing.

[kapsis21]

Just to be clear on how unlucky Bard was in his first start, here are some stats:

 

1. He had 11 ground balls, 6 of which went for hits.

2. His BABIP was .471. That's an insane number.

3. He only stranded 44% of baserunners.

4. He had 18 (!!!!!) swing and misses in just 5 innings. That's outrageous.

5. Although I'm against using FIP, I will use it here because it would at least normalize these numbers. His ERA right now is 9.00. His FIP is 0.99. His xFIP is 1.82.

 

He had an excellent start, but he was hosed by terrible luck.

 

By the numbers, his 64.7% ground ball rate should have resulted in an outstanding outing, as ground balls result in the lowest runs (Line drives are death to pitchers, while ground balls are the best for a pitcher. In numerical terms, line drives produce 1.26 runs/out, fly balls produce 0.13 R/O, and ground balls produce only 0.05 R/O).

 

He basically just got about as screwed as a pitcher could get in his first outing.

 

i am hopefull that after 4-6 starts we will really see what Bard is made of.. i didnt know that ground ball pitchers had the best R/O wish we can bring back Cook really quick.. even though i dont know where he would be but he is giving quality starts in AAA. i know he is a health risk but at this point if we have 2 months of 3 under ERA from him would love to see that..

[mvp 78]

Cook isn't getting any swing and misses. If someone gets hurt, then you bring him up.

[Elktonnick]

Cafardo says it all "He has not pulled the plug on Daniel Bard as a starter even though every baseball scout you speak to who watches this team knows that Bard should be the closer." This is all on Cherries.

[BornToRun]

Cafardo says it all "He has not pulled the plug on Daniel Bard as a starter even though every baseball scout you speak to who watches this team knows that Bard should be the closer." This is all on Cherries.

 

Well let's give the kid some time before shoving him back into a role he doesn't want to be, especially considering how good he looked in Toronto.

[kapsis21]

Cook isn't getting any swing and misses. If someone gets hurt' date=' then you bring him up.[/quote']

 

i agree but its wierd that we have Padilla and Cook that could be using 3-4 innings if one has a bad outing and it solidifies our bullpen to put Bard yet we have to try him out in Starting rotation... i wish Bailey didnt injure himself..sigh

 

Well let's give the kid some time before shoving him back into a role he doesn't want to be' date=' especially considering how good he looked in Toronto.[/quote']

but i hope the leash is really a short one.

[jung]

I thought the line was that Bard would be the best closer on this team. That much might be true, "might be true". However there is a big difference between would be the best closer on this team and should be the closer.

[Elktonnick]

Well let's give the kid some time before shoving him back into a role he doesn't want to be' date=' especially considering how good he looked in Toronto.[/quote']

 

Depends what you mean by looking good. As Eckersley said he was "worse than mediocre".