Papelbon/Bard et al

[SCM33]

He threw 6 pitches the 1st time' date=' 7 on Sunday, and like 15 last night.[/quote']

 

Its not so much the pitches in the game.

 

Its more of that he is up and throwing at all in 3 of the 4 games. If he were to be called to warm up, but didnt get in the game.....he is still technically not getting the day off and resting. He is still pitching whether or not he sees game action.

 

That being said, his arm was very durable last year and he was stretched out a bit this spring, I am sure hes fine. He was hitting 95 with ease last night.

[mvp 78]

When he mixes his pitches, he does well. Against the Tigers it was all FB's.

[Bellhorn04]

Whatever. still overused. 3 out of 4 games. with 13 pitchers?

 

There was an off day so he's pitched 3 times in 5 days. He's our #1 end-of-game pitcher and we've had 3 close games. Seems like normal usage to me.

[ellsburyforMVP]

I agree that even if aceves blew another save last night, that bard will get more than 1 start.... Do I think it would be atleast 5 starts? God forbid, but if bard has 3 horrible starts, I think the experiment would be over.....

 

I'm torn over this because I DO realize how valuable bard " could " be as a starter,but I've been a sox fan long enough to know that you need a bullpen to win gms..... Not every yr can be like 2007...... I know I'm beating a dead horse, but why does a team that pretty much prints there own money,let a guy like pap walk to save a few bucks......will be a couple months before I make it back to Boston to catch a few sox gms, I've been lucky enough that the last 3 gms I've been too have required pap coming in for a save....... When "shipping up to Boston " came over the speakers there was an energy that comes over the crowd that was indescribable ...... I can't imagine it'll ever be the same........

[jung]

I don't think you can really make a case that Aceves has been overused as yet. He is the "closer" at this point. If he pitches again tonight then he might need a break in the final game in Toronto.

 

That might actually give the Sox a chance to see what one of these other guys does as a closer. I would not put Melancon in right now with the game on the line. Aceves in my view was not pitching until last night. He was throwing. So I could see what was happening to him. Melancon is throwing batting practice out there. So I would do anything but put him into games with the game on the line at this point. However I do think he is better than what he has shown and I do think he will stop throwing lollypops at some point.

 

Morales is probably the guy who has shown promise while not having pitched much and maybe he would get a shot to close in the last game in Toronto. Padilla should be ready to go again at that point as well I would think.

[Bellhorn04]

I noticed something odd about the way Philly has used Papelbon so far. Game 1 he got the save, nothing odd there. But Game 2 they lost 2-1 in extra innings, and Game 3 they lost 5-4, blowing a 4-1 lead, giving up 2 in the 7th, 1 in the 8th and 1 in the 9th. And Papelbon didn't pitch in either game. Then last night Manuel brings him in in the 9th when they're losing 5-2-to get some work?-and he gives up a home run. Kind of strange managing.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Just wondering, haven't caught any Philly gms.... Does pap have an " entrance song"? Wonder if he's trying to get the drop kick murphys to make him a "shipping down to Philly" jig lol

[jung]

Paps was a case of time more than money. I think I would be confident in saying that if the money were the same for Paps but the term was 2 years, the Sox would have competed to keep him. Four years at that kind of money is what nixed the Sox trying to make a bid for him.

 

Now I am sure there are some of us that think even two years at that kind of money is to much for any closer who's name is not Mariano. That could be a valid argument as well.

 

Since we don't a choice anyway...I think if we give this some time, I think more of us will in retrospect be inclined to think the Phillies overpaid for a closer.

 

I was not ready to believe Aceves was going to get his head out of his ass and start to pitch in the 9th inning as opposed to just throw in the 9th inning until I saw it...last night he accomplished that and he did much better. I think it is reasonable to think that Aceves will not revert to the guy we saw in the first two close opportunities in Detroit. If he does not revert, we may be just fine. Look most of baseball, by far the preponderance of teams go forward with closers in the $5M or less price range and do so very successfully. Just because the Sox have the money does not mean they should spend it on a closer.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Ok, 1st I realize we can't compare pap to mariano at this point, and 2nd saves haven't been a recorded stat for that long....... But papelbon is the fastest closer to 200 saves and it's pretty safe to say that if the rest of his career stays on track , that he then WOULD be in the same league as Mariano ? And at the end of his career, noone will ever question paying him what they payed him....

 

Side note....this is the 3rd time today I've seen the Charles Barkley in a dress weight watchers commercial..... Why chuck??? Is money really that tight????

[jung]

I am pretty sure that the big fear for the Sox was injury and as durable as Paps has been I do think that is a valid concern. Very few closers have gone the number of years that Paps will have gone if the Phillies contract goes to term without having been bitten by the injury bug and I think that is the risk the Sox were unwilling to take.

[ellsburyforMVP]

I am pretty sure that the big fear for the Sox was injury and as durable as Paps has been I do think that is a valid concern. Very few closers have gone the number of years that Paps will have gone if the Phillies contract goes to term without having been bitten by the injury bug and I think that is the risk the Sox were unwilling to take.

 

Then how smart do they look signing a guy like Bailey as his replacement, who should legally change his name to Andrew " DL" Bailey ? Lol

[jung]

Agreed.....Bailey had his own set of risks attached....looks like the Sox choose less money over less time and still got burned!

 

What torques me off is that Bailey went charging over to 1st base on that meaningless ST play and that is how he got hurt. Why........????????? It is ST kid. We hired you for how we thought you would pitch not for how you got over to cover first on infield plays. How many of those plays is he going to see in the 9th inning of games? Arghhhhhh

[User Name]

Then how smart do they look signing a guy like Bailey as his replacement' date=' who should legally change his name to Andrew " DL" Bailey ? Lol[/quote']

 

You do know they have no contractual obligation to Bailey past this year?

 

If Papelbon gets injured or regresses during his current contract, they're stuck paying him over 12 mill to do nothing or suck.

[kapsis21]

I am pretty sure that the big fear for the Sox was injury and as durable as Paps has been I do think that is a valid concern. Very few closers have gone the number of years that Paps will have gone if the Phillies contract goes to term without having been bitten by the injury bug and I think that is the risk the Sox were unwilling to take.

 

i think its stupidity to consider that a guy who was doing really well in Boston all these years to think an injurry would hurt the team and they wouldnt risk him giving a 3 year deal yet Carl Crawford gets a 7 year deal... apparently somebody in the FO is clearly not doing their job

 

list of guys i hate who wore Redsox uniform especially for the amount of money the FO spent..

Julio Lugo

John Lackey

Carl Crawford

[jung]

UN is correct and that is one of the differences between dealing with a guy that has something of an agenda (Paps determination to sign a record setting deal for total $$ for a closer) vs a guy involved in a "normal" negotiation (ie you want my services, I want this money).

 

Paps wanted to set the market...either for his ego or because he thought he owed the players union something...whatever...but he was determined to set the market. So if you wanted him, you had to play along. I can't really blame the Sox for not wanting to play along even with the Bailey injury.

[ellsburyforMVP]

You do know they have no contractual obligation to Bailey past this year?

 

If Papelbon gets injured or regresses during his current contract, they're stuck paying him over 12 mill to do nothing or suck.

 

Who's to say he's going to get injured though?? In all sports, there are guys that constantly stay hurt it seems, there are freak accidents, but the majority of pro-athletes go their entire careers without ever suffering any type of major injury.... I just don't think that's a good way to manage a sports franchise.... We can't re-sign this guy, cause he "might" get hurt...... I don't buy it, not for a second

[ellsburyforMVP]

UN is correct and that is one of the differences between dealing with a guy that has something of an agenda (Paps determination to sign a record setting deal for total $$ for a closer) vs a guy involved in a "normal" negotiation (ie you want my services, I want this money).

 

Paps wanted to set the market...either for his ego or because he thought he owed the players union something...whatever...but he was determined to set the market. So if you wanted him, you had to play along. I can't really blame the Sox for not wanting to play along even with the Bailey injury.

 

He's a superstar for his position.... Take away the angel series in the playoffs, and over the last 4 yrs ,as a whole, there's 2 guys.... Mariano and pap....I can't bring myself to even type the dollar amount we are paying lackey and Crawford.... Or the money we gave away to drew..... Papelbon has been one of the 2 best closers in MLB..... He deserved to be paid, plain and simple

[jung]

list of guys i hate who wore Redsox uniform especially for the amount of money the FO spent..

Julio Lugo

John Lackey

Carl Crawford

 

So what does this mean though...after having made those three blunders, they would not be guy shy? While the Sox are never going to tell us they made a mistake (although I guess JH got as close to saying they made a mistake on CC as any owner is ever going to get) I think they likely acknowledge to themselves that even without the benefit of hindsight, those three deals were hard to justify.

 

The Paps deal is not the only deal the Sox have been gun shy on since the last of the screaming ugly deals...CC. I would say Ortiz is the only deal they have done that is a big money deal since then and again even in that case they are committed to one year only.

 

As I have said before to have thought that the huge amounts of misspent money of the last few years was only going to result in a few heads rolling was naive I think. BC came out and told us they were not at least for the near term going down the big money road. Some guys are going to get caught up in that net in all likelihood and in that environment, I don't think the Sox were much willing to play along with Paps.

 

In addition, most teams get to and though a WS paying their closers far less than $11M per. So it stands to reason that you can get to and through a WS without paying a closer that kind of money.

[kapsis21]

You do know they have no contractual obligation to Bailey past this year?

 

If Papelbon gets injured or regresses during his current contract, they're stuck paying him over 12 mill to do nothing or suck.

 

it just doesnt make sense for someone who has been reliable all these years to put a question mark behind him and yet sign Carl Crawford for 7 effin years or Jon Lackey for 5 years....

stupid

[User Name]

it just doesnt make sense for someone who has been reliable all these years to put a question mark behind him and yet sign Carl Crawford for 7 effin years or Jon Lackey for 5 years....

stupid

 

Papelbon's shoulder luxation issue is eerily similar to Lackey's elbow issue.

 

The problem here is fans talking out of both sides of their mouth. The stupidity of the contracts to Crawford and Lackey are exactly the reason why the FO should be careful in handing future multi-year deals.

[User Name]

He's a superstar for his position.... Take away the angel series in the playoffs' date=' and over the last 4 yrs ,as a whole, there's 2 guys.... Mariano and pap....I can't bring myself to even type the dollar amount we are paying lackey and Crawford.... Or the money we gave away to drew..... Papelbon has been one of the 2 best closers in MLB..... He deserved to be paid, plain and simple[/quote']

 

He sucked in 2010 and was decidedly not as good in 2009. He could decline. Multi-year deals to relievers are an exercise of futility.

 

That's the reality, and it's supported by a lot of empirical evidence. Personal attachment to Papelbon should have no effect on this issue.

[iortiz]

here we go ... hahahahaha

[ellsburyforMVP]

Papelbon 2007 WS...3 gms 4.1 ip 2 hits 0.00 era 3 saves

 

Holds the MLB record for most scoreless playoff innings to start a career -26

 

Playoff career.... 18 gms 27 ip 23k 3runs 1.00 era 7 svs .815 whip....

 

And your half right.... Cause pap made peanuts for money when he recorded those stats.... Like most young closers that win.... They eventually get their money

[ellsburyforMVP]

He sucked in 2010 and was decidedly not as good in 2009. He could decline. Multi-year deals to relievers are an exercise of futility.

 

That's the reality, and it's supported by a lot of empirical evidence. Personal attachment to Papelbon should have no effect on this issue.

 

2010 37 svs 2009 38 svs... 1.85 era in 09??? Decidedly not as good??

[ellsburyforMVP]

Lackey never earned the money he got.... His best season is arguably 19-9 with a 3.01 era ( the only time he's ever been even close to a 3.00 era, next best was 3.50 ) you can not in good faith compare lackey to papelbon

[kapsis21]

Lackey never earned the money he got.... His best season is arguably 19-9 with a 3.01 era ( the only time he's ever been even close to a 3.00 era' date=' next best was 3.50 ) you can not in good faith compare lackey to papelbon[/quote']

 

agree whole heartedly.. yet Lackey got a better deal..

[User Name]

2010 37 svs 2009 38 svs... 1.85 era in 09??? Decidedly not as good??

 

ERA for relievers is misleading. He had a down season in every other statistical category.

 

Red Sox fans:

 

"This FO keeps handing out stupid contracts, whaaaaaaa"

 

"This FO didn't want to pay Papelbon a shitload of money, whaaaaaaa".

 

Can't have it both ways.

[kapsis21]

Papelbon's shoulder luxation issue is eerily similar to Lackey's elbow issue.

 

The problem here is fans talking out of both sides of their mouth. The stupidity of the contracts to Crawford and Lackey are exactly the reason why the FO should be careful in handing future multi-year deals.

 

so you are saying 3 year 11mill deal was too much out of line for someone like Papelbon yet our money spent on Jenks Lackey is still okay.

i do understand that Papelbon wanted a big deal and he was getting cranky with it.. but i still dont get the logic of not offering him anything. he had that spot nailed down.

[User Name]

Lackey never earned the money he got.... His best season is arguably 19-9 with a 3.01 era ( the only time he's ever been even close to a 3.00 era' date=' next best was 3.50 ) you can not in good faith compare lackey to papelbon[/quote']

 

You're seriously comparing a SP to a closer.

 

Like, seriously?

 

It's not even a question whether starting pitchers are more valuable than relievers.

[User Name]

so you are saying 3 year 11mill deal was too much out of line for someone like Papelbon yet our money spent on Jenks Lackey is still okay.

i do understand that Papelbon wanted a big deal and he was getting cranky with it.. but i still dont get the logic of not offering him anything. he had that spot nailed down.

 

Are you reading what i'm writing?

 

I said the stupidity OF THOSE EXACT CONTRACTS YOU'RE MENTIONING is the reason why they exercised caution (and rightfully so) with regards to Papelbon.