Bard to Rotation a Mistake?

[example1]

How can anyone be so sure Bard wasnt a part of the clubhouse spiral? We werent there. What you can definitely say' date=' is he was a major part of the standings spiral in September. He lost 4 games in September and blew 3 saves. For a guy who only appeared in 11 games, he was the guy who gave up the lead in 4 of them for good. That's horrific[/quote']

 

I think if there were any season where rumors and stories about clubhouse douchebagary would be reported, it was 2011. I haven't heard a SINGLE mention of Bard doing anything untoward in the clubhouse or as part of this team. If Bard were part of the personnel problem, we would know about it.

 

Hell, I've even heard that the reason they sent Scutaro for nothing was because he was the clubhouse 'snitch'. Who knows if it is true :dunno: . No such rumors with Bard.

 

You're barking up the wrong tree.

[Dojji]

How can we be so sure he was? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

He was a part of the collapse in the W-L column. You can buy or sell opinions about whether he was part of the attitude problem, but his failure to pitch effectively in September *for whatever reason* was a huge part of the September collapse.

[User Name]

He was a part of the collapse in the W-L column. You can buy or sell opinions about whether he was part of the attitude problem' date=' but his failure to pitch effectively in September *for whatever reason* was a huge part of the September collapse.[/quote']

 

No one has said otherwise. The proof is in the results.

[Elktonnick]

Both Aceves and Dubront pitching today. Aceves in the first two innings hasn't helped his cause as a starter. Two runs in the first and back to back homers and a hit batter in the second.

[jung]

Well I do think that if the decision is going to hinge on which of the two Bard or Aceves is the more valuable bullpen pitcher then in my view Aceves is without question the more valuable bullpen pitcher and that would put Bard in the rotation in the 5 hole I think. Can't see that he has done enough yet to prove he is the 4.

 

I did not get to see much of Aceves today. got here to late. However from what I saw it looked like he was the definition of wild in the middle of the plate. Looked like there were a good many pitches up and/or right in the heart of the plate.Tough day for him. 3 HR in one 3 inning stint....ouch. Anyway I don't think it is possible for guys to get good results every time out in ST.

 

These stints are more about balls and strikes, location and stuff. Aceves threw strikes but his location was not so hot and his fastball was up and kinda' flat for him. Although stuff is not really his strength. Location is though and he did not have that today.

[Bellhorn04]

Very good outing for Doubront, puts him a step closer to a starting slot.

[VA Sox Fan]

Very good outing for Doubront' date=' puts him a step closer to a starting slot.[/quote']

 

Yes it was, I posted his line in the ST thread:

 

6 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 2 K. 78 pitches / 53 strikes.

[jung]

Wish I had seen Doubront today but given how late in the spring it is he may well be sticking himself in that 4 slot right now.

[Elktonnick]

Well I do think that if the decision is going to hinge on which of the two Bard or Aceves is the more valuable bullpen pitcher then in my view Aceves is without question the more valuable bullpen pitcher and that would put Bard in the rotation in the 5 hole I think. Can't see that he has done enough yet to prove he is the 4.

 

I did not get to see much of Aceves today. got here to late. However from what I saw it looked like he was the definition of wild in the middle of the plate. Looked like there were a good many pitches up and/or right in the heart of the plate.Tough day for him. 3 HR in one 3 inning stint....ouch. Anyway I don't think it is possible for guys to get good results every time out in ST.

 

These stints are more about balls and strikes, location and stuff. Aceves threw strikes but his location was not so hot and his fastball was up and kinda' flat for him. Although stuff is not really his strength. Location is though and he did not have that today.

 

I hate to say it because I like Aceves but today was his worst performance ever in a Red Sox uniform. He was all over the place. Remy noticed it right off he wasn't on top of his pitches at the point of release. As they say he was pitching up hill and as a result everything was hit hard.

[Elktonnick]

Yes it was, I posted his line in the ST thread:

 

6 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 2 K. 78 pitches / 53 strikes.

 

BV wasn't at the game at Jet Blue I assume he was at Dubront's game

[jung]

Today does not diminish for me Aceves value to this team and particularly to this pen.

 

I do wish this whole thing about the rotation would just end so that these guys could start to prepare in earnest for opening day.

[a700hitter]

Yes it was, I posted his line in the ST thread:

 

6 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 2 K. 78 pitches / 53 strikes.

Doubront stepped up today, but Aceves, who had been the best of the bunch so far, really s*** the bed today. He looked awful. Hopefully, Bard steps up tomorrow and locks down the 4th spot.

[RedSoxNC84]

Aceves either had an unusual hiccup, or this is a sign of what could be if he were to start. I seem to remember someone on here saying that if a lineup gets too many looks at Aceves, he's toast. That may just be the case.

[Station 13]

Aceves either had an unusual hiccup' date=' or this is a sign of what could be if he were to start. I seem to remember someone on here saying that if a lineup gets too many looks at Aceves, he's toast. That may just be the case.[/quote']

 

He has a variety of pitches, I would not call any of them plus pitches.

[seabeachfred]

How can anyone be so sure Bard wasnt a part of the clubhouse spiral? We werent there. What you can definitely say' date=' is he was a major part of the standings spiral in September. He lost 4 games in September and blew 3 saves. For a guy who only appeared in 11 games, he was the guy who gave up the lead in 4 of them for good. That's horrific[/quote']

 

Jacko, I've come to the conclusion that there are two distinct possibilities of what went down with Bard last September. One is that his arm was shot, that he had pitched his total alloted of innings and was gassed out in the final month. That is a possibility whey his effectiveness went down the toilet.

 

The second possibility is that he cannot stand the pressure of being in the arena. He was also crappy in April if you remember, and though he rallied after that for four effective months, there is also the possibility that he might something of a wuss.

 

All I do believe, though, is that we would be better served with him in the bullpen. That is why I hope Doubrant and Cook (on the latter guy, what my pal 700 jump all over my ass on that) can win those spots because then we could have Bard,, Aceves, Bailey and Melancon heading the bullpen. They along with a couple of others could give us a solid pen.......I think!!!!!!!

[Spudboy]

I hate to say it because I like Aceves but today was his worst performance ever in a Red Sox uniform. He was all over the place. Remy noticed it right off he wasn't on top of his pitches at the point of release. As they say he was pitching up hill and as a result everything was hit hard.

 

This post has got me thinking (not an easy thing to do as I am fundamentally lazy!).

 

A few years ago, a now banned member stated something to the effect that hitting a baseball is the most difficult task or skill in sports.

 

I am not sure if that is correct. But if it is, pitching a baseball is up somewhere near it in difficulty.

 

Thank you for reading my random though.

 

Carry on.

[SCM33]

Another 5 ER today for Bard with 3 more walks in only 5 innings of work.

 

Hes been un-hittable this spring huh? Damn he looks good.

[jung]

Bard looked pretty good today in a park that is hard to look good in for a pitcher. The Jays pitchers have my sympathies.

 

Home plate is a launch pad with little guys able to get what should have been medium fly balls to the warning path. The infield is quite possibly the hardest infield I have ever seen, maybe harder than original astroturf infield. I think it was AGons that bounced one just in front of the plate and the next time it hit the ground was just over second base!

 

Bard had two walks in 5 innings but neither were to the first batter of the inning, one coming with 1 out and the other with 2 outs the following inning.

 

The first walk appeared more of a mental error by pitcher and catcher. Why they were pitching so carefully to Mathis, a right hander, not the second coming of Albert with a left hander on deck is beyond me. Next time up Mathis was meat but Bard walked the left hander behind him in that inning.

 

Then the wheels "sort of" came off in the 6th. Hit the first batter and walked the second and followed that with a bouncing double down the left field line. Wish I was there to judge what that double actually was as anything hitting that infield needed to be hit right at somebody to be stopped. Easily the weirdest natural turf infield I have ever seen from the perspective of speed and high bounces.

 

While the walks were not as disconcerting as they had been in previous outings they are still an issue and you hear Strike 1 very few times when Bard is pitching even though the ball:strike ratio was better today. Life would be so much easier for him if he could get Strike 1. Every walked batter scored as did the one batter that he hit. That accounts for 4 of the 5 runs he gave up in 6 innings of work and that is the thing that has to be imprinted in his head. Only one of the walks was allowed with no outs but still every walked batter scored as did the hit batsman.

 

While he got out of that mess in the 6th only giving up one more run, the second run of that inning came in from third on a bouncer to second base. Bard simply got way to much plate with that pitch as it was up and out over the plate on a 1-2 count and had he been able to get that guy out without allowing the runner in from 3rd I would have been way more impressed. Bard would have left giving up 4 instead of 5, having retained a lead for his team while getting 5 K's.

 

Slider was pretty good today and Bard relied on it a good deal. Saw maybe four changes in 6 innings of work. Bard had 5 K's today with the slider the out pitch of choice for the most part.

 

All in all a good days work for Bard. Could have been better but he also could have done himself some good pitching smarter both in the walk to Mathis and the bounding ball to second base in the 6th that got the 5th run home for the Jays. This to me is in stark contrast to Cook for example. While Cook is less likely to make the rotation than Bard, Cook has the composure and mentality of a starter which is something Bard seems to lack at present. While Cook would not have gone off the deep end with that runner on third on the 6th, you get the feeling that if he had gotten to a 1-2 count on the batter he would not have left a ball out over the plate like that for an automatic run. Knowing where and when to bear down over the course of several innings of work is the expressed domain of the starter and something a pitcher has got to learn one way or the other.

 

To me this was a slightly better outing than the one just previous. While Bard throws hard, he cannot afford mental errors and has got to get the walks under control. V will use the walks to drive him out of the rotation although I am still more inclined to Doubront and Bard getting to the rotation with Aceves staying in the pen than having Aceves in the rotation with Bard in the pen. However just the way V talks about Bard vs Aceves tells you want V wants to do. I don't even have to listen to V to hear what he will say after this Bard outing.

 

Bard at least had an outing today that would make him seem valuable again if he returns to the pen, just not as valuable as Aceves is in the pen.

[Elktonnick]

Bard looked pretty good today in a park that is hard to look good in for a pitcher. The Jays pitchers have my sympathies.

 

Home plate is a launch pad with little guys able to get what should have been medium fly balls to the warning path. The infield is quite possibly the hardest infield I have ever seen, maybe harder than original astroturf infield. I think it was AGons that bounced one just in front of the plate and the next time it hit the ground was just over second base!

 

Bard had two walks in 5 innings but neither were to the first batter of the inning, one coming with 1 out and the other with 2 outs the following inning.

 

The first walk appeared more of a mental error by pitcher and catcher. Why they were pitching so carefully to Mathis, a right hander, not the second coming of Albert with a left hander on deck is beyond me. Next time up Mathis was meat but Bard walked the left hander behind him in that inning.

 

Then the wheels "sort of" came off in the 6th. Hit the first batter and walked the second and followed that with a bouncing double down the left field line. Wish I was there to judge what that double actually was as anything hitting that infield needed to be hit right at somebody to be stopped. Easily the weirdest natural turf infield I have ever seen from the perspective of speed and high bounces.

 

While the walks were not as disconcerting as they had been in previous outings they are still an issue and you hear Strike 1 very few times when Bard is pitching even though the ball:strike ratio was better today. Life would be so much easier for him if he could get Strike 1. Every walked batter scored as did the one batter that he hit. That accounts for 4 of the 5 runs he gave up in 6 innings of work and that is the thing that has to be imprinted in his head. Only one of the walks was allowed with no outs but still every walked batter scored as did the hit batsman.

 

While he got out of that mess in the 6th only giving up one more run, the second run of that inning came in from third on a bouncer to second base. Bard simply got way to much plate with that pitch as it was up and out over the plate on a 1-2 count and had he been able to get that guy out without allowing the runner in from 3rd I would have been way more impressed. Bard would have left giving up 4 instead of 5, having retained a lead for his team while getting 5 K's.

 

Slider was pretty good today and Bard relied on it a good deal. Saw maybe four changes in 6 innings of work. Bard had 5 K's today with the slider the out pitch of choice for the most part.

 

All in all a good days work for Bard. Could have been better but he also could have done himself some good pitching smarter both in the walk to Mathis and the bounding ball to second base in the 6th that got the 5th run home for the Jays. This to me is in stark contrast to Cook for example. While Cook is less likely to make the rotation than Bard, Cook has the composure and mentality of a starter which is something Bard seems to lack at present. While Cook would not have gone off the deep end with that runner on third on the 6th, you get the feeling that if he had gotten to a 1-2 count on the batter he would not have left a ball out over the plate like that for an automatic run. Knowing where and when to bear down over the course of several innings of work is the expressed domain of the starter and something a pitcher has got to learn one way or the other.

 

To me this was a slightly better outing than the one just previous. While Bard throws hard, he cannot afford mental errors and has got to get the walks under control. V will use the walks to drive him out of the rotation although I am still more inclined to Doubront and Bard getting to the rotation with Aceves staying in the pen than having Aceves in the rotation with Bard in the pen. However just the way V talks about Bard vs Aceves tells you want V wants to do. I don't even have to listen to V to hear what he will say after this Bard outing.

 

Bard at least had an outing today that would make him seem valuable again if he returns to the pen, just not as valuable as Aceves is in the pen.

 

"Bard looked pretty good today in a park that is hard to look good in for a pitcher."

 

You've got to be kidding, right!

[jung]

You've got to be kidding, right!

 

I did not think he hurt himself. He just did not help himself. If the Sox had legitimate 4 and 5 starters nobody would even be having this discussion. The Sox don't and we are looking for somebody to step up. So far nobody has really stepped up.

 

Two guys are going to end up taking 4 and 5 cause somebody has to be the 4 and 5, not because anybody has distinguished himself to any degree worth talking about. Aceves has to a point but even he is would not be "taking" one of these positions. At one point I would have chosen Aceves cause he had out-pitched everybody else. At this point, he has not out-pitched everybody else by that much and I think Aceves is simply to valuable to the pen.

 

If Cook comes up big tomorrow, Doubront and Cook might be as good as anything else. At this point I would likely choose Doubront and Bard with Bard as the 5. There is no upside to Cook. What we are seeing is what we are going to get and he is iffy as hell.

 

All winter we have said this was going to be an issue it the waters appear about as murky now as they were then. Frankly I am happy guys that Doubront, Bard, Aceves and Cook have pitched as well as they have but none of them have been real confidence builders as starters and none of them have taken these rotation positions by storm.

[a700hitter]

I did not think he hurt himself. He just did not help himself. If the Sox had legitimate 4 and 5 starters nobody would even be having this discussion. The Sox don't and we are looking for somebody to step up. So far nobody has really stepped up.

It is very disappointing that no one has stepped up to claim one of the 2 available spots. I had hoped that at least 1 guy would step it up big time, but with one turn left to go around the rotation, no one has stepped up. I really thought it would be Bard, but he has looked ordinary at best. We can be as optimistic as we like, but no one is winning the jobs.

[Dojji]

At least he's proven he has some ability to go deep into the game, fighting through 6 innings.

 

Anyone who thought we were going to magically get an ace by moving a guy who hadn't started in 5 years to the rotation should probably check their medication.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

 

Doubront has stepped up big, big time. How many of us were talking about him in December and January? And what has he done? Come out and put up quality outing after quality outing after quality outing, thrown to a 2.70 ERA even though stats don't matter much in ST (see Pedro Ciriaco), and been extremely efficient with his pitches (78 pitches in 6 innings vs MIA).

 

If that was Buchholz, Lester, or Beckett, we would all be very pleased with those results. If that was Bard, we would all be glimmering with hope.

 

Doubront has absolutely stepped up. And I'd actually say that Aaron Cook has stepped up as well. The guy is the definition of efficiency. 9.1 IP, 5 H, 3 BB, 0.86 WHIP, 2 ER, 1.93 ERA.

 

It's the guys that we expected to step up (Bard, Aceves) that have let us down. But the unexpected guys have been throwing lights out. I would absolutely say that Cook and Doubront are the favorites for the #4 and #5 slots right now, and I'm 110% ok with that because that bolsters our bullpen tremendously.

[Bellhorn04]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

 

Doubront has stepped up big, big time. How many of us were talking about him in December and January? And what has he done? Come out and put up quality outing after quality outing after quality outing, thrown to a 2.70 ERA even though stats don't matter much in ST (see Pedro Ciriaco), and been extremely efficient with his pitches (78 pitches in 6 innings vs MIA).

 

If that was Buchholz, Lester, or Beckett, we would all be very pleased with those results. If that was Bard, we would all be glimmering with hope.

 

Doubront has absolutely stepped up. And I'd actually say that Aaron Cook has stepped up as well. The guy is the definition of efficiency. 9.1 IP, 5 H, 3 BB, 0.86 WHIP, 2 ER, 1.93 ERA.

 

It's the guys that we expected to step up (Bard, Aceves) that have let us down. But the unexpected guys have been throwing lights out. I would absolutely say that Cook and Doubront are the favorites for the #4 and #5 slots right now, and I'm 110% ok with that because that bolsters our bullpen tremendously.

 

Agreed on Doubront, not so sure about Cook. Too small of a sample.

[Dojji]

Cook ~ Paul Byrd. That's not unacceptable.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Against the Yankees last outing, albeit a not-so-regular Yankees line up, Cook threw 48 pitches over 4 IP. Averaging 12 pitches per inning is fantastic. That gets this team through 7-8 innings right there, and even if it is 7-8 innings, 3-4 ER, that's still a 4 to 4.5 ERA, which is exactly what this team needs. Someone to go out there, get quick outs, grind out 7-8 innings from the 5th slot, and keep this offense in the game because if we can have a guy who goes out and does that, he'll win 10-12 games for us from the 5 slot.

[a700hitter]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

 

Doubront has stepped up big, big time. How many of us were talking about him in December and January? And what has he done? Come out and put up quality outing after quality outing after quality outing, thrown to a 2.70 ERA even though stats don't matter much in ST (see Pedro Ciriaco), and been extremely efficient with his pitches (78 pitches in 6 innings vs MIA).

 

If that was Buchholz, Lester, or Beckett, we would all be very pleased with those results. If that was Bard, we would all be glimmering with hope.

 

Doubront has absolutely stepped up. And I'd actually say that Aaron Cook has stepped up as well. The guy is the definition of efficiency. 9.1 IP, 5 H, 3 BB, 0.86 WHIP, 2 ER, 1.93 ERA.

 

It's the guys that we expected to step up (Bard, Aceves) that have let us down. But the unexpected guys have been throwing lights out. I would absolutely say that Cook and Doubront are the favorites for the #4 and #5 slots right now, and I'm 110% ok with that because that bolsters our bullpen tremendously.

True, Doubront has stepped up, but he has not been close to eye-popping. He has one or more innings in each outing where he loses the plate badly. He has not been a consistent strike thrower. Cook has remained healthy, which is a big deal for him, but he is nothing special. He could be a big punching bag in the ALE, because he has no ability to put batters away with a K. Overall, I am not encouraged about the bottom of the rotation, not yet.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Cook ~ Paul Byrd. That's not unacceptable.

 

That's a horrible comparison. Aaron Cook is not going to come out and throw to a 5.85 ERA like Byrd did.

 

Cook was hurt in 2010 and 2011, and for the 4 years preceding that, he threw 748 IP (averaging 188 IP per season) to a 4.11 ERA. And it's not like he played at Petco. I'd say Coors is a pretty good hitters park.

 

I'm not saying he's going to be a sub-3 or even sub-4 ERA guy. But if he can go out there, grind out innings and throw to a 4.2-4.5 ERA, eat up 180+ innings, what more can you ask from your #5 guy?

[User Name]

Against the Yankees last outing' date=' albeit a not-so-regular Yankees line up, Cook threw 48 pitches over 4 IP. Averaging 12 pitches per inning is fantastic. That gets this team through 7-8 innings right there, and even if it is 7-8 innings, 3-4 ER, that's still a 4 to 4.5 ERA, which is exactly what this team needs. Someone to go out there, get quick outs, grind out 7-8 innings from the 5th slot, and keep this offense in the game because if we can have a guy who goes out and does that, he'll win 10-12 games for us from the 5 slot.[/quote']

 

Do you really think Cook would be able to provide that? Those 12 pitches for inning look more like an aberration than his general rule of performance.

 

Cook would probably not touch the numbers you're expecting over a full season.

[a700hitter]

That's a horrible comparison. Aaron Cook is not going to come out and throw to a 5.85 ERA like Byrd did.

 

Cook was hurt in 2010 and 2011, and for the 4 years preceding that, he threw 748 IP (averaging 188 IP per season) to a 4.11 ERA. And it's not like he played at Petco. I'd say Coors is a pretty good hitters park.

 

I'm not saying he's going to be a sub-3 or even sub-4 ERA guy. But if he can go out there, grind out innings and throw to a 4.2-4.5 ERA, eat up 180+ innings, what more can you ask from your #5 guy?

In a 10 year career, Cook has surpassed 180 innings only twice (last time in 2008). I'm not optimistic that he will be so durable.