2012 Who will be our manager?

[seabeachfred]

700 Hitter----Trying to start s*** is very tempting right about now. How the hell can we now be one day short of two months since FrancoMa was shown the door and still the inept front office can't fart and chew gum at the same time. I was impatient from the get-go, but I can't see how everyone around here can be patient anymore. This has become a comic opera and the front office is seemingly more dysfunctional by the day. Do they expect someone on a white horse to suddenly appear out of nowhere and take their chestnuts out of the fire? This is ridiculous pure and simple. We need to add key players to our team and right now all we're talking about is this ridiculous non-managerial situation.

 

Cherington has been exposed as nothing more than a sap but we do know at least what he wants. He wants to cease being a sap and hire some guy like Lamont who he can dominate the way Epstein ran FrancoMa around on a string. I'm surprised at Lucchino, though. I had the impression he was a tough no nonsense guy and right now he looks more and more like a clown.

[mvp 78]

1. Players go where the $ is. Before you say "Cliff Lee" remember that the exception proves the rule. They don't care about the manager.

 

2. Paps was leaving no matter what. This had nothing to do with it.

 

3. Is the manager a toadie for FO or independent? If just a toadie then this hiring is meaningless.

 

4. Public perception of the FO won't stop the "sell out" streak. So I doubt FO really cares.

 

5. Until the Sox start missing out on players with reasonable contracts, I'm not worried about the offseason. A business this size should be able to handle multiple decisions at once.

 

6. This team has made enough bad decisions the past few years, which is I why I want them to take their time and do things right. It's not like coaches are being hired away from the Sox. You didn't want Sveum anyway.

[User Name]

1. Players go where the $ is. Before you say "Cliff Lee" remember that the exception proves the rule. They don't care about the manager.

 

2. Paps was leaving no matter what. This had nothing to do with it.

 

3. Is the manager a toadie for FO or independent? If just a toadie then this hiring is meaningless.

 

4. Public perception of the FO won't stop the "sell out" streak. So I doubt FO really cares.

 

5. Until the Sox start missing out on players with reasonable contracts, I'm not worried about the offseason. A business this size should be able to handle multiple decisions at once.

 

6. This team has made enough bad decisions the past few years, which is I why I want them to take their time and do things right. It's not like coaches are being hired away from the Sox. You didn't want Sveum anyway.

 

 

BUT IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!!!11!! I GOT INSIDE INFORMATION FROM SHANK!!!11!!

 

You're the voice of reason on this board.

[User Name]

I'm pretty sure that nobody around here have claimed to know the accurate facts, all of us have made assuptions /opinions, in the end this is all about, isn't it?, then, we can agree or not. That's all.

 

Some of us share your opinion about this issue. The longer they wait, the more it won't look good. But again, that's our perception btw....notice that I'm not claiming to know the facts

 

Oh no, you've never passed opinion as fact. Nooooo.

[User Name]

I have been posting this opinion LONG before it became fashionable.

IMO they ownership group is just digging its hole even deeper.

 

INSIDE INFORMATION!!!11!!!

 

WRITERS NEED TO STOP STEALING YOUR MATERIAL!!! COPYRIGHT LAWSUIT!!!!

 

By the way, this is a good example of an actual opinion that isn't being passed as fact. Kudos on the improvement.

[jung]

This team has made enough bad decisions the past few years, which is I why I want them to take their time and do things right. It's not like coaches are being hired away from the Sox. You didn't want Sveum anyway.

 

Unfortunately, I think the horse has left the barn on this one. Once again the inordinate amount of power and influence LL exerts on this team has corrupted any process. Bobby V may well have his "qualities" as a manager but none of those are things that drive LL. He sees V as a device that will be good press from day 1 as V will continue to be a polarizing element whether a manager or an analyst and frankly that is what LL values in him.

 

While there are Presidents in business organizations that are capable of donning a different hat and not allowing their particular responsibilities as President to be to much of an influence, LL does not appear to be one of them. That is why this intermingling of responsibilities has never really worked out for the Sox. Your GM for the most part works to improve the team. Your Manager tries to win games and your President is for the most part responsible for top and bottom line fiscal performance. Not only does LL always bring his top and bottom line responsibilities with him when he moves down the organizational pipe he also always brings his penchant for being an overeager marketeer with him. That is what LL sees in Bobby V. That is why our FA signings are so often biased toward big name-itis and why we rarely have enough talent behind our big name opening day lineup card to be enough of a well rounded team to really make a run. Why do you think we so often finish behind teams with better balance and depth in spite of their smaller budgets?

 

Our opening day lineup card looks like a world beater but there is rarely anything of substance backing up that opening day nine when they either fatigue or go down with injury. We are so often beaten by teams with better balance and often lower salary budgets but boy we are hell on wheels for neon lights and fireworks! While our FO moves are often designed to pander to the fan base and its tendency to ohh and ahh over these big name signings fans will rarely worry about what the hell happens when the guys on the opening day lineup card fatigue or go down.

 

LL drove Theo out of town twice as Theo barely had more than the illusion of power the second time around and eventually tired of it. Don't we find it interesting that at the end Theo and Tito basically ended up closer than we ever thought they were? How the hell do you think that happened?

 

LL's power base has a direct line from JH and until JH realizes that his junk yard dog works the wrong end of the delicate balance between the fan base and its desire to win and the business of Fenway and its desire to generate revenues, our FO doings will not look much different regardless of who is GM and our team performance will not much change regardless of who is Manager for that matter. Our team will continue to be a team with a monster opening day lineup card but a team that is none the less hard to manage and lacking in enough overall balance and bench strength to last the 162 game grind of the season. We have met the enemy and....he is us!

 

So here we go again. We are likely going to sign Ortiz.... and... Who is it that will provide the means to rest Agons and Youk both players that have now proven unable to hold up in the face of the rigors of being part of that monster opening day lineup card? Oh that is right, our new manager and some Strength and Conditioning guy making $80k are going to "make" those guys better able to stand up to 162....sure they are.

 

The one silver lining in bringing Ortiz back is that it does suggest that the FO might be taking its lead from the lowered 1st year luxury tax rate and might be willing to sign more players to shore up the SP, bullpen and lineup than some of us have been counting on. Is that how the Sox will spend money or will we see a couple more big name ohh and ahh signings and that's it, leaving us with the same team profile of the last few seasons? "Introducing your right fielder, Darnell "nobody" McDonald and in center Mike "big name broken down" Cameron and on and on it goes.

[example1]

After the sox offered arbitration it was reported that he wanted a multiple year deal. Theres a good chance he goes elsewhere or signs a more team-friendly deal with the sox.

[FredLynn]

1. Players go where the $ is. Before you say "Cliff Lee" remember that the exception proves the rule. They don't care about the manager.

 

Cliff Lee went to a place that seemingly was the favorite to win the WS. He left money on the table. All other things being equal, including money, players will opt for stability and a chance for a ring. Thats human nature.

 

2. Paps was leaving no matter what. This had nothing to do with it.

 

Got proof of that? Maybe you were right; maybe not. My guess is that in this case the money would have talked. Not saying letting him leave was a bad decision, but your statement is unsubstantiated by proof.

 

3. Is the manager a toadie for FO or independent? If just a toadie then this hiring is meaningless.

 

Depends. Hiring Valentine would be a very purposeful act with the intent on cleaning up the mess left by Epstein/Francona. He would be independent. Hiring Lamont, a Francona clone, would be hiring a toadie. You are right: nothing would change, it would be meaningless.

 

4. Public perception of the FO won't stop the "sell out" streak. So I doubt FO really cares.

 

5. Until the Sox start missing out on players with reasonable contracts, I'm not worried about the offseason. A business this size should be able to handle multiple decisions at once.

 

They cannot even make ONE decision at once.

 

6. This team has made enough bad decisions the past few years, which is I why I want them to take their time and do things right. It's not like coaches are being hired away from the Sox. You didn't want Sveum anyway.

 

The delay is absurd. There is a finite pool of candidates that is not increasing. Everyone knows who they are. The longer the delay the worse the perception that this organization is in chaos will be, and by extension, the longer it will take to right the ship. Assuming we want the team to win another ring in our lifetimes, this does not help the cause.

[mvp 78]

Unsubstantiated? Paps had been clammoring for FA for the past few years. He was chomping at the bit to have one great season and get a big money deal elsewhere. He was pissed when the Sox wanted to bring in Rivera. If he really wanted to stay in Boston, he would have come back to the Sox to match the Phills offer. He didn't. He had his bags packed long ago.

 

Hiring a manager doesn't right the ship. It's almost inconsequential.

[FredLynn]

Unsubstantiated? Paps had been clammoring for FA for the past few years. He was chomping at the bit to have one great season and get a big money deal elsewhere. He was pissed when the Sox wanted to bring in Rivera. If he really wanted to stay in Boston, he would have come back to the Sox to match the Phills offer. He didn't. He had his bags packed long ago.

 

Hiring a manager doesn't right the ship. It's almost inconsequential.

 

You are probably right, but my guess is that he would have followed the money. Had the Sox made a great offer that beat the Phillies' offer before it was presented he would still be here. Not saying that was the right thing to do. Can't really say I blame Paps either. After all, $50M barely covers living expenses, right?

[a700hitter]

It's Papelbon's fault! The FO made every effort to sign him. Yeah, right. They were probably call screening his calls to voice mail.

[iortiz]

It's Papelbon's fault! The FO made every effort to sign him. Yeah' date=' right. They were probably call screening his calls to voice mail.[/quote']

 

When he was interviewed he said that he didn't want to go into a match-up-offer war. He said that the only team that was interested at that point was Philadelphia. He said that he appreciated the interest and loyalty showed by Philadelphia.

 

When I read the interview It looks like they didn't even ring him. They didn't even ring our ace. They didn't even explore the possibility.

 

They are exploring to deal with Ortiz but they didn't even try to negotiate with Pap?

 

Sure, they are different type of contracts and positions but at least call the guy for God's sake. For the record, seems like they didn't even try.

[User Name]

Even though Papelbon himself didn't allow them the chance to match the offer? (This came from Papelbon's mouth). Solid logic.

 

Also, Papelbon wasn't the Red Sox' "Ace". He was the team's closer, and one that can be replaced at that. The sky is not falling. Yet.

[example1]

Papelbon said for a long time that he wanted to test the market and set precedent as a closer. The Sox explored with him. They knew better than any other team what he would be looking for. Clearly, what he was looking for was something like what he got.

 

Bard is close to the same value at 1/10th the cost. Seems like a no-brainer.

[SoxSport]

Back on the thread title, here's an article by Edes, saying the manager issue is FO trust:

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7292546/boston-red-sox-manager-choice-comes-trust

 

Can Cherington "trust" Valentine? Substitute the word "control" for trust. It's really an issue of FO control.

The Red Sox have a serious management conflict, folks.

 

Edes says in this article that Epstein controlled Francona and the dugout. That's the first time I've seen anybody in the media say that. I concluded that in a post weeks ago after I read Moneyball book. Beane micro-managed games in Oakland, and Tito was the bench coach. You have to read books to get this stuff--the mainstream media doesn't talk about it--until now.

[example1]

Sorry soxsport, but how does reading a book about the early 2000's A's give you insight into the Sox that books about the Sox don't provide, like Feeding the Monster, for instance?

 

EDIT: The article says very little that is new, other than the fact that interpersonal relationships, specifically trust, play a huge part in the role and comfort of a manager. That makes a lot of sense. It doesn't really say anything at all about the general manager meddling in what the manager is doing, other than that Theo went a long way to establish and maintain trust with his manager, and that it worked until this year.

 

I think Valentine would be interesting, but I worry that Lucchino does not know how to deal with personalities and that might come to bite him in the ass here. Of course, I don't know valentine personally so my judgment is pretty limited.

[iortiz]

Back on the thread title, here's an article by Edes, saying the manager issue is FO trust:

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7292546/boston-red-sox-manager-choice-comes-trust

 

Can Cherington "trust" Valentine? Substitute the word "control" for trust. It's really an issue of FO control.

The Red Sox have a serious management conflict, folks.

 

Edes says in this article that Epstein controlled Francona and the dugout. That's the first time I've seen anybody in the media say that. I concluded that in a post weeks ago after I read Moneyball book. Beane micro-managed games in Oakland, and Tito was the bench coach. You have to read books to get this stuff--the mainstream media doesn't talk about it--until now.

 

Is Lamont that controllable? Is this the thesis that BC is making in order to sign Lamont?

 

Or what the hell is BC seeing on Lamont that LL and some fans/media are not seeing on him? what does Lamont make a better choice over BV for BC? (assuming BC prefers Lamont, of course) I'd like to know the answers.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

According to Karl Ravech (lol what) Gene Lamont is no longer a candidate to be manager. So that only leaves Valentine. Unless there is something going on no one knows of.

[FredLynn]

According to Karl Ravech (lol what) Gene Lamont is no longer a candidate to be manager. So that only leaves Valentine. Unless there is something going on no one knows of.

 

Karl Ravech. Isn't he the tight end the Patriots signed in the 70s to make everyone forget about Coleman Zeno?

[jung]

Wow....does anybody know what day V is supposed to return from Japan?

[jung]

WEEI says the Sox have just countered the tweet announcing that Lamont is still in the mix and has not as yet been eliminated.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon said for a long time that he wanted to test the market and set precedent as a closer. The Sox explored with him. They knew better than any other team what he would be looking for. Clearly, what he was looking for was something like what he got.

 

Bard is close to the same value at 1/10th the cost. Seems like a no-brainer.

Not really a no-brainer. It's not like they swapped out the cheap Bard for the expensive Papelbon. It's a little more complex than that. When Bard takes the closer spot, he leaves a huge hole in the 7th/8th inning. They lost one-half of the two headed monster they had to close out games. It wasn't an either or proposition. They should still have both of them.

[a700hitter]

Report: Offer to Valentine is imminent

November 29, 2011 06:00 PM

 

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

 

Karl Ravech of ESPN is reporting that Gene Lamont has been eliminated from the Red Sox search and that an offer to Bobby Valentine is imminent.

 

More on this as it develops.

[jung]

Nothing further on Lamont after the Sox denied that he is out of the running (as reported by EEI). However EEI also now reports that Sox and V have reached a verbal agreement.

[SoxFanForsyth]

LynchieWCVB Mike Lynch

Red Sox and Bobby Valentine have reached a verbal agreement for him to be the next Sox manager.

 

According to reports, Valentine is the new manager.

[Billy Mueller]

Ravech knows Valentine.......there's his source.

 

Bobby's the guy. Im actually pretty excited as crazy as this search has been. Bobby knows the game and he's extremely entertaining. This is gonna be fun.

[jung]

Sounds like ready or not here he comes! Wonder if V is headed back from Japan at this point.

[iortiz]

Habemus Manager

[Billy Mueller]

link on espn boston saying its official

[Billy Mueller]

Edes reporting its official as well

 

"Job was offered to him in Japan, where he was on personal business, and he immediately accepted, according to source. No comment from BV." (GordonEdes twitter)