2012 Who will be our manager?

[SoxSport]

I think they need a guy the players can respect. Somebody who has experience. Been there, done that. And somebody who can press the right buttons during a game. And the players usually know what the right buttons are. Tony Larussa, for example. He's respected.

 

I think the sabermetrics stuff is best left to the GM and FO--the people who pick the farm system, draft,etc.

 

I don't think the manager should be restricted as to moving baserunners by bunting or stealing, or manipulating lineups--or changing pitchers. Here you want a manager that doesn't feel constricted by sabermetrics. You want some flexibility for the situation.

 

Next year, the Red Sox will have 3 guys who can steal 40 bases and one guy who can steal 20.

That's a lot of speed in a lineup that doesn't use speed. You wonder how things got that way?

 

Beane always drafted guys who got lots of walks and had power--guys who were fat, slow and couldn't play defense. Guys other GMs passed on. He was successful--for awhile.

Things might be on another level now. Maybe speed and defense are coming back into play.

Maybe the Red Sox will surpise people this year with their style of play.

 

Cherington is a first year GM. I expect a tighter control of pursestrings by Henry and LL.

I also think the new manager will have more autonomy in running a game and the clubhouse.

That could mean a veteran that LL will have heavy input on.

 

I read this post again from 10/29. I assure you I am not Henry or Lucchino lurking.

[seabeachfred]

If Sveum would have been a continuation of the Francona approach then it is terrific that he didn't get the Red Sox job because in my opinion another FrancoMa type is the last thing the Red Sox need. His milk and cookies approach turned out to be toxic for the team this season and by now everyone is aware of what took place in the clubhouse during games. In fact I always believed Terry should have been replaced after the 2009 season when we collpased after the ASB, blew a three game lead we had at the time and struggled to get into the post season where the Angels dispatched us in three game.

 

Valentine is exactly the type of manager we need because he would not only demand discipline, stress fundamentals and have the Red Sox ready to play by opening day, something FrancoMa miserably failed to do, our team would not be the staid and dull statio-to-station- game that Terry and Epstein liked. Teams would not have to just sit back and relax because Bobby wouldn't be hesitant in using the hit and run, steal more, run and hit, and emphasize a wider open game. Francona was also a pretty weak game manager, slow to pull a struggling pitcher, willing to go to great lengths not to bench someone who needed benching, and when you add that to his station-to-station mantra it makes for someone we don't want a replica of the next few seasons.

[jung]

I had not thought about this until this very minute. But managers have been fired during the season before. It happens in baseball, all kinds of pro sports. Clearly the Sox were not ready to start the season when the calendar said it was time to start. I wonder what would have happened to the 2011 season if Tito had been fired early while the season start debacle was on. Would the team have gotten the message that this s*** was not going to fly? Would the slide into oblivion been avoided? We will never know but it would not have been the first time that a season start that bad had gotten a manager fired. Not sure the end result would have been worse than it was.

[example1]

If Sveum would have been a continuation of the Francona approach then it is terrific that he didn't get the Red Sox job because in my opinion another FrancoMa type is the last thing the Red Sox need. His milk and cookies approach turned out to be toxic for the team this season and by now everyone is aware of what took place in the clubhouse during games. In fact I always believed Terry should have been replaced after the 2009 season when we collpased after the ASB, blew a three game lead we had at the time and struggled to get into the post season where the Angels dispatched us in three game.

 

Valentine is exactly the type of manager we need because he would not only demand discipline, stress fundamentals and have the Red Sox ready to play by opening day, something FrancoMa miserably failed to do, our team would not be the staid and dull statio-to-station- game that Terry and Epstein liked. Teams would not have to just sit back and relax because Bobby wouldn't be hesitant in using the hit and run, steal more, run and hit, and emphasize a wider open game. Francona was also a pretty weak game manager, slow to pull a struggling pitcher, willing to go to great lengths not to bench someone who needed benching, and when you add that to his station-to-station mantra it makes for someone we don't want a replica of the next few seasons.

 

You do know that Valentine has managed before, right? He's not a sure-thing in terms of winning.

 

Different teams have different needs. Francona won 2 World Series, but 2011 wasn't his best year. Valentine might be right here, but he will have struggles too.

 

The benefits of the Francona approach is that he buffered a lot of s*** from his highly-paid and often self-centered players. Valentine will not do that as well. That may be good for this group, but in 5-10 years when this group has turned over Valentine might find himself less useful. Such is the way with managers it seems.

[seabeachfred]

I had not thought about this until this very minute. But managers have been fired during the season before. It happens in baseball' date=' all kinds of pro sports. Clearly the Sox were not ready to start the season when the calendar said it was time to start. I wonder what would have happened to the 2011 season if Tito had been fired early while the season start debacle was on. Would the team have gotten the message that this s*** was not going to fly? Would the slide into oblivion been avoided? We will never know but it would not have been the first time that a season start that bad had gotten a manager fired. Not sure the end result would have been worse than it was.[/quote']

 

Jung, believe it or not, this was the exact issue that split Sawxheads wide open this fall and led to a new board being created for the apologists and excuse makers. The fact is iron-clad, the Red Sox were NOT physically or mentally ready when the season began and it showed in ten of 12 defeats. I also think those 12 straight losses in Spring Training might have brought on a culture of losing that carried over into the season. Winning is a habit and can become one. So, unfortunately, is losing, and we had plenty of that entering the season. I have always maintained in the face of a lot of anger from Francona supporters that he actually cost us two or three division titles with his kid gloves approach, his refusal to demand accountability, the poor fundamentals his teams displayed the past few seasons, and most of all his less than stellar performance as a field manager.

 

I'm not going to say the Red Sox won two WS in spite of him but will say the last few years of his tenure saw teams that weren't nearly competitive of fundamentally sharp to take on the rigors of the AL East. For the record, it is my opinion that Joe Maddon ran circles around Francona when their two respective teams met. Maddon will not do that to Valentine. As for Bobby, he lasted seven-plus years with the Rangers and about the same amount of time with the Mets. Valentine's first year with Texas saw them finish a surprising second and demonstrated a touth team approach while in New York they contended for the most part without a title until 2000 when they won the NL. His last two years were a debacle as he lost the team as he did in Texas. Bobby is not a long term answer, but for four or five years I think he is exactly who we need.

[jung]

Interesting...I had thought about the possibility of Tito getting canned over the start just for a few days as the ugly start was upon us and then completely forgot that I had been wondering about it at that time. Ended up so traumatized by the result of the 2011 season that I had not thought about the 2011 start in the context of how the 2009 and 2010 had gone and Tito until you jogged my memory banks. Frankly it had been the last thing on my mind of late Sox-wise since Tito is gone anyway.

 

We need to get those guys from that movie The Adjustment Bureau to work on removing Tito about 15 games into the 2011 season to see what our result would have been.

 

Very rare for the manager to be canned part way through a regular season in baseball. Much more common in the other three major team pro sports.

[seabeachfred]

You do know that Valentine has managed before, right? He's not a sure-thing in terms of winning.

 

Different teams have different needs. Francona won 2 World Series, but 2011 wasn't his best year. Valentine might be right here, but he will have struggles too.

 

The benefits of the Francona approach is that he buffered a lot of s*** from his highly-paid and often self-centered players. Valentine will not do that as well. That may be good for this group, but in 5-10 years when this group has turned over Valentine might find himself less useful. Such is the way with managers it seems.

 

You are right Ex1, Valentine is not a sure thing and he sure as hell isn't a long range answer for us for ten years, but for four or five I still insist he is exactly what we need. If you check Bobby's managerial record with Texas he started off like a house of fire when he took over in '85 and led them to a surprising second place finish in the then 6 team AL West Division. By '92 when he was canned he had worn out his welcome and had alientated a lot of players and FO personnel. With the Mets he took over in late '95 I believe and made the almost instant contenders but didn't hit the jackpot until 2000 when he led them to the NL Pennant. After that it was two years and out.

 

Yes X1, he does wear out his welcome and might do it in Boston, but is there any question that a tougher course is needed after the past three seasons? Francona was a terrific clubhouse manager, kept the pressure off the players, kept the press off of the players backs, and handled the PR well in a city where it is tough as hell on managers of the Red Sox. Having said that, it became obvious to me that this wasn't working well the last three seasons and this season it all came apart. I think BV can restore the Red Sox to championship caliber and more than hold his own against the likes of Maddon, Showalter and Girardi.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[a700hitter]

An article critical of the Red Sox managerial hiring process. I guess it is not just me, IOrtiz, and SCM that have been critical of this process:

 

Red Sox's search failing to deliver

Ken Rosenthal

Updated Nov 18, 2011 5:12 AM ET

 

 

MILWAUKEE

 

It was bad enough that the Red Sox ran off Terry Francona as manager and made Theo Epstein miserable enough to want to leave as general manager.

 

Now they’re apparently not listening to Epstein’s replacement, which leaves them still looking for Francona’s replacement.

 

Why?

 

Because their presumed front-runner – Brewers hitting coach Dale Sveum – seems poised to join Epstein and the Cubs.

 

Maybe the Sox should just ask for a do-over and the chance to bring back Epstein and Francona. But it’s a little late to put the fried chicken back in the bucket, isn’t it?

 

Sveum was the only one of the Sox’s five managerial candidates whom new GM Ben Cherington summoned for a second interview.

 

That interview — a sitdown with Cherington and the Sox’s three top owners — took place Wednesday at the general managers/owners meetings in Milwaukee.

 

The owners must not have liked what they heard, or at least not liked it enough; they declined to make Sveum an offer.

 

Epstein, the Cubs’ president, and Jed Hoyer, the team’s GM, also met with Sveum a second time Wednesday, and acted far more aggressively.

 

They made Sveum an offer, knowing they had competition from their old team. And unless the Red Sox respond with their own offer – and there is no indication that they will - this baby is over.

 

Oh, but there’s more.

 

Who do you think helped form the Red Sox’s list of candidates? None other than Epstein, who continued working for the Sox before he began working for the Cubs.

 

Epstein then took his list to Chicago, interviewing several of the same candidates, including Sveum — and failing to agree on compensation with the Red Sox for his own departure.

 

Maybe that sly fox Epstein will include a Cubs jersey autographed by Sveum in addition to whichever B-grade prospects he ends up sending back to Boston.

 

Who will the Red Sox end up hiring?

 

Who knows?

 

They likely will expand the search after eliminating only one of their four other candidates — Phillies bench coach Pete Mackanin.

 

Blue Jays first base coach Torey Lovullo, Guardians bench coach Sandy Alomar Jr. and Tigers third base coach Gene Lamont remain under consideration.

 

But the Sox blew their chance to interview another potential candidate, Dodgers third base coach Tim Wallach, by dragging the process out this long.

 

Wallach, according to WEEI.com, has a clause in his contract that allows teams to interview him only during a brief window at the end of the season.

 

Is this beautiful, or what?

 

It would not be surprising if the Sox’s owners balked at Sveum, who isn’t exactly an electric personality and twice was passed over by the Brewers to be their permanent manager. Frankly, the team might be better off with Lovullo, who is more polished and considered a rising star.

 

In fairness to the Sox, executives throughout baseball keep saying that the pool of managerial candidates is thin. Still, the Boston job should be one of the most coveted in the game, a magnet for the best and the brightest.

 

Maybe the job is less coveted following the smear campaign on Francona, but c’mon. The Sox could hire virtually anyone they wanted. Yet, try finding the next Earl Weaver on their list, much less the next Francona.

 

See, this is what happens when an organization suffers a nervous breakdown. The Sox just had to find a scapegoat for their historic September collapse. They picked Francona, declining to exercise his options — and setting in motion a series of unfortunate events.

 

Francona, who lost out on the Cardinals’ job to Mike Matheny, told CSNNewEngland on Wednesday that he would not manage next season “for my benefit,” saying he needed to “take a step back and re-energize.”

 

But the truth is, Francona would have stayed with the Red Sox if Epstein and ownership had remained supportive of him, told him that he was still the man they wanted.

 

They told him no such thing, and now the Sox are getting what they deserve.

 

Terry Francona never looked so good.

[SoxSport]

The media theme of the Red Sox "not listening to their GM" sounds phoney and overly critical.

Why should they give so much responsibility to a newbie GM? With such a star-studded team?

Did the Cubs? Would the Yankees? Who picked the Cardinals manager?

 

The trouble is, the way the Sox handled it, it LOOKED LIKE Cherington had that responsibility.

Plus the Red Sox are so overexposed in the media lately they are bound to get the microscope treatment on everything they do.

 

Looking at the Rosenthal blog, you have to wonder if he is really serious, or just pissing with the wind.

Not what you would expect from that guy. Tito doesn't look good at all. Nor does Kenny.

[jung]

I am not sure that piece did much more than give the author a chance to spout off but I am not even sure what he was spouting off about.

 

Does he not like the fact that Tito is gone? Well it was Tito's time. Get over it. The most we could complain about there is that we just can't seem to let a manager go without tar and feathering him along the way. That I don't like. As for not offering Tito an option at the end of the year, the author's timing is way off. The problem was that Tito was not offered an option at the start of the year. Once we got to year end, the handwriting was on the wall.

 

Does he not like the fact the Theo is gone? Theo needed some room to breath. He was going nowhere here and it simply does not matter anymore whether he did a good job or bad. It was his time to move on as well.

 

I have been very critical of the process as well but mainly because of the way Cherington was used or should I say abused. Once again the author does not seem to understand what has actually happened here.

 

You can tell when the news is not providing much fodder. Things get slow here on the forum and the Boston media boys really start reaching for something to print.

[SCM33]

An article critical of the Red Sox managerial hiring process. I guess it is not just me' date=' IOrtiz, and SCM that have been critical of this process:[/quote']

 

BC will not last here as a GM.

 

Larry Lucchino runs this team, and it was stated as such when John Henry barged into 98.5 studios (Felger and Mazz) and stated it.

 

Thats not speculation, thats straight up truth right out of John Henrys mouth. Larry Lucchino runs baseball operations. BC is just a puppet for LL to blame when LL makes stupid decisions.

 

This whole operation has been an embarrassment since the collapse on the final day of the season..........

 

The problem isnt beer drinking, or chicken....or Theo, or Tito......or Crawford.

 

I have been saying from day 1, blow it up...blah blah blah.....that is until this managerial process when I realized the root of the problem goes much higher than players and managers.

 

The problem is Larry Lucchino. LL can do no wrong in his position of "head of baseball operations". He makes the decisions a GM would/should make, but when the team sucks next year, he will just blame it on BC and say he was responsible for the shortcomings.

 

Lucchino has too much power and is too involved. Larry Lucchino is the problem.

[example1]

An article critical of the Red Sox managerial hiring process. I guess it is not just me' date=' IOrtiz, and SCM that have been critical of this process:[/quote']

 

What i have seen of your criticism is basically defending other posters who say the sox haven't made enough moves.

 

You having been critical in the past does not make you the owner of all future criticism. I'm not a fan of Valentine as a manager, and I'm not a huge fan of bringing Ortiz back. Truth be told I don't like it that Papelbin left either but I think it was pretty much inevitable so I'm not going to get a man-version of empty-nest syndrome because of it.

 

I have never been too big a fan of Lucchino and think that Theo buffered a lot of the Larryisms that would otherwise have floated to the surface. I hope I'm wrong on that one. Hard to tell whose influence causes what around here.

[iortiz]

BC will not last here as a GM.

 

Larry Lucchino runs this team, and it was stated as such when John Henry barged into 98.5 studios (Felger and Mazz) and stated it.

 

Thats not speculation, thats straight up truth right out of John Henrys mouth. Larry Lucchino runs baseball operations. BC is just a puppet for LL to blame when LL makes stupid decisions.

 

This whole operation has been an embarrassment since the collapse on the final day of the season..........

 

The problem isnt beer drinking, or chicken....or Theo, or Tito......or Crawford.

 

I have been saying from day 1, blow it up...blah blah blah.....that is until this managerial process when I realized the root of the problem goes much higher than players and managers.

 

The problem is Larry Lucchino. LL can do no wrong in his position of "head of baseball operations". He makes the decisions a GM would/should make, but when the team sucks next year, he will just blame it on BC and say he was responsible for the shortcomings.

 

Lucchino has too much power and is too involved. Larry Lucchino is the problem.

 

So... If this was true, Theo would be another LL's assistant.

 

If this is true, I'm sorry Theo, LL shall take the main load of accountability from our recent failures.

If this is true and if we fail again, LL will walk next season. He will not have more scapegoats.

[User Name]

BC will not last here as a GM.

 

Larry Lucchino runs this team, and it was stated as such when John Henry barged into 98.5 studios (Felger and Mazz) and stated it.

 

Thats not speculation, thats straight up truth right out of John Henrys mouth. Larry Lucchino runs baseball operations. BC is just a puppet for LL to blame when LL makes stupid decisions.

 

This whole operation has been an embarrassment since the collapse on the final day of the season..........

 

The problem isnt beer drinking, or chicken....or Theo, or Tito......or Crawford.

 

I have been saying from day 1, blow it up...blah blah blah.....that is until this managerial process when I realized the root of the problem goes much higher than players and managers.

 

The problem is Larry Lucchino. LL can do no wrong in his position of "head of baseball operations". He makes the decisions a GM would/should make, but when the team sucks next year, he will just blame it on BC and say he was responsible for the shortcomings.

 

Lucchino has too much power and is too involved. Larry Lucchino is the problem.

 

100% agree with this.

[jung]

Lucchino has too much power

 

Which is why Theo finally got fed up and realized he had nowhere to go in Boston. Not only could Theo not move up into LL's job, he could not keep LL from moving down to mess with his job.

 

BC is in the same boat only to an even higher order of magnitude. However I still think LL has more rope than people will tend to think. LL has gotten away with being LL for a long time now and I don't think any of us really understand either the genesis of or the depth of his power base within the Fenway organization. Some of it clearly stems from he fact that he does JH's dirty work for him. But it is more than that.

 

Michael Holly recently released a book based on Bellichek and the Pats called War Room basically about the draft process and about relationships within the Pats FO. I have a sneaking suspicion that Bellichek and the Pats FO is not nearly as interesting a topic as LL and the Sox FO relationships would be. I don't know what I would call that book though....maybe Machiavelli Meets the Hit and Run.

[SoxSport]

Shaughnessy rips the Red Sox in the Globe this morning for being "in chaos." More media bashing.

 

You have to say, though, they could sure use a PR spokesperson. All these management types running around saying disjointed things to the media does not inspire confidence.How about speaking with one voice, guys?

 

Cafardo has a nice column on why the veteran Sox team needs an experienced, leader type of manager.

Names he throws out include Valentine, Lamont and Bowa. I've watched Bowa on MLB cable where he's an analyst. He has the moxie, but you wonder how volatile he would be. it could be WWIII with the media, but he is one of them now. Valentine, a friend of LL and a Henry favorite, looks like a sure thing at this point, or it would not have been made public.

 

Cafardo raised an interesting option as pitching coach: Dave Wallace. He still lives in the Boston area, and was the Sox pitching coach when they won in '04. He left in '06 for hip replacement; never came back after Nipper became interim coach. Wallace is a native of Connecticut like Valentine, and was Valentine's pitching coach with the Mets in 2000-02. he has a reputation for keeping pitchers healthy. If Valentine becomes the manager, it's a good bet Wallace will be his pitching coach. He's 64, still young enough to have an impact.

 

I get the impression Cafardo has an "in" with Lucchino.

[a700hitter]

Shaughnessy rips the Red Sox in the Globe this morning for being "in chaos." More media bashing.

 

You have to say, though, they could sure use a PR spokesperson. All these management types running around saying disjointed things to the media does not inspire confidence.How about speaking with one voice, guys?

 

Cafardo has a nice column on why the veteran Sox team needs an experienced, leader type of manager.

Names he throws out include Valentine, Lamont and Bowa. I've watched Bowa on MLB cable where he's an analyst. He has the moxie, but you wonder how volatile he would be. it could be WWIII with the media, but he is one of them now. Valentine, a friend of LL and a Henry favorite, looks like a sure thing at this point, or it would not have been made public.

 

Cafardo raised an interesting option as pitching coach: Dave Wallace. He still lives in the Boston area, and was the Sox pitching coach when they won in '04. He left in '06 for hip replacement; never came back after Nipper became interim coach. Wallace is a native of Connecticut like Valentine, and was Valentine's pitching coach with the Mets in 2000-02. he has a reputation for keeping pitchers healthy. If Valentine becomes the manager, it's a good bet Wallace will be his pitching coach. He's 64, still young enough to have an impact.

 

I get the impression Cafardo has an "in" with Lucchino.

I thought Wallace was a very good pitching coach.

 

Bowa worries me. He wears out his welcome even faster than Bobby V. Bowa had talented teams in Philly but they never performed for him.

[SoxSport]

I thought Wallace was a very good pitching coach.

 

Bowa worries me. He wears out his welcome even faster than Bobby V. Bowa had talented teams in Philly but they never performed for him.

 

There was another article in the Herald a couple days ago that said there was another "mystery" name candidate other than Valentine. That could be Bowa, since Cafardo mentioned him today. It could also be Farrell--some tweets are saying they are still trying to get him.

 

Valentine is getting "interviewed" Monday by Cherington for the 2nd time. I suspect this time

the outcome may be different.

[RonVermette]

I hope LL & Henry have told Cherington to focus on player signings. Whoever they eventually decide on as manager is going to be lambasted anyway.

[iortiz]

I hope LL & Henry have told Cherington to focus on player signings. Whoever they eventually decide on as manager is going to be lambasted anyway.

 

this X 100

 

In the end, they are who play.

[a700hitter]

Cherington to meet with Valentine tomorrow

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

 

Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington said he has a meeting for tomorrow with Bobby Valentine.

 

Cherington spent the weekend in the Dominican Republic and will now return to the job of finding a new manager. Valentine emerged as a candidate last week when Red Sox ownership apparently rejected Cherington's first choice, Dale Sveum.

 

Three other candidates — Sandy Alomar Jr., Gene Lamont and Torey Lovullo — remain in contention along with Valentine. But for Valentine to have come this far could be a sign that he is the front-runner.

 

Cherington met with Valentine earlier in the search process. Valentine also had had discussions with team president Larry Lucchino and possibly owner John Henry.

[iortiz]

 

I hope he signs Cespedes.

[mvp 78]

I hope he signs Cespedes.

 

Too much money for an unknown who hasn't played at any level in the US. Not interested.

[User Name]

Too much money for an unknown who hasn't played at any level in the US. Not interested.

 

Wait, isn't iortiz always saying that the Sox need to overhaul their FA signing process and go after guys with proven track records who they are sure can succeed in this environment, then turns around and suggests the Sox drop a boatload of money on a guy who hasn't even taken a swing in the minors?

[SoxSport]

I just read an article in Yahoo sports--MLB section--that just shows how ridiculous this whole Valentine thing has gotten in the media.

 

So now Valentine is going to meet "all day" Monday with Cherington, to see if Valentine can get his blessing as the next Red Sox manager. He is going to be put through the grinder by Cherington.

If he does not meet Cherington's criteria for what HE is looking for, then Henry and Lucchino are supposed to bow to his wishes and look for somebody else.

 

Is this some kind of a joke? That September collapse has sure turned the Red Sox into media fodder.

[SoxSport]

Too much money for an unknown who hasn't played at any level in the US. Not interested.

 

What's he wasting travel money for going to the DR? He should be interviewing Valentine, according to Yahoo.

[iortiz]

Too much money for an unknown who hasn't played at any level in the US. Not interested.

 

Well, I have to say that I posted my coment lightly, it was reactionary after watching the video and reading that Ben just came back from DR (I didn't even think about the money).

 

Said that, Still I think that Ben should take his case seriously and at least build a business case and see how it looks like.

[SoxFanForsyth]

At least if Valentine is our new manager, Beckett won't take 30-35 seconds between pitches :dunno:

[a700hitter]

Bobby V will probably greet Cher Bear with a slap across the face and tell him who is the boss. LOL!

[SoxFanForsyth]

Bobby V will probably greet Cher Bear with a slap across the face and tell him who is the boss. LOL!

 

Maybe he'll do the same to Beckett and keep the beer out of the clubhouse until after the game. Or at least make them bring the dixie cups into the dugout and watch the game.