2012 Who will be our manager?

[SoxSport]

Silverman's article in the Herald today seems to indicate there were two manager searches going on at the same time-- one public, involving no-name candidates with little or no ml managing experience, the other in private, involving "name" candidates--experienced ml managers who did not want their names out there "unless they were sure of getting the job." These included LaRussa (he wants to stay retired) and Valentine. Others whose teams denied permission to be interviewed included Farrell and Wallach (Dodger coach). Why Wallach would be denied is a mystery. Cherington was involved in all these discussions, and was the first to interview Valentine.

 

The bold quote above tells me Valentine has the job. It wouldn't be public if that wasn't the case.

 

Like I've said, you have to watch what they do, not what they say.

 

It looks like they faked the media up the middle and went around the end. An old military tactic.

[SoxFanForsyth]

If we got Castro' date=' I'd be completely giddy until opening day.[/quote']

 

We'd have to throw the Cubs some prospects. Think of Theo counting as a mid-level prospect. So it would have to be something like Middlebrooks + Iglesias + Theo or something like that.

[a700hitter]

We'd have to throw the Cubs some prospects. Think of Theo counting as a mid-level prospect. So it would have to be something like Middlebrooks + Iglesias + Theo or something like that.

I'd still be really giddy. Castro is a very talented player. He would be our SS for 10 yrs.

[example1]

Any chance Valentine could have a positive impact on Matsuzaka or influence a decision (one way or the other) on Yu Darvish? A good portion of his experience was in Japan--I wonder what aspects of that game are part of his approach.

[example1]

Having followed the Sox from across the pond for just the last 4 years (Hi All!) and having read the forum for a while thought I would finally contribute for what it's worth. It's interesting to see how the hiring procedure works over there. My first sport is football (soccer) and over here everything is kept very quiet until someone is actually hired' date=' although of course rumours will appear in the press as to who's in the picture along the way. So I find it strange to see press conferences introducing potential candidates and what they have to say. That said, it seems that a complete mess has been made of this whole process and that BC has gone down the path of speaking to 5 potential managers, none of whom from the start were ownership ever going to want to hire, effectively wasting 7 weeks. If the remit was to hire someone with more experience why wasn't BC told that from the start?[/quote']

 

Interesting observations. Sox fans and media are obsessive to the point of making things intolerable for players and management at times. The trade off is that supposedly the fans are more loyal and passionate, but I can't help but wonder if St Louis or Chicago wishes their fans were more like Sox fans. I bet they don't.

 

A few years ago players noted that there is no better place to play than Boston. I suspect that's not the case anymore. The collapse may have taken the most positive aspects of sox fandom with it; at least temporarily.

[a700hitter]

Any chance Valentine could have a positive impact on Matsuzaka or influence a decision (one way or the other) on Yu Darvish? A good portion of his experience was in Japan--I wonder what aspects of that game are part of his approach.

He didn't have a very high opinion of Matsuzaka before we won the posting. He said from the beginning that he was the back of the rotation starter and that he didn't throw as hard as rumored. He might be good to get a scouting report on Japanese players, and they probably should have sought him out before they went for $102 million on Dice K. I doubt that he has any inroads with Japanese players.

[a700hitter]

Interesting observations. Sox fans and media are obsessive to the point of making things intolerable for players and management at times. The trade off is that supposedly the fans are more loyal and passionate, but I can't help but wonder if St Louis or Chicago wishes their fans were more like Sox fans. I bet they don't.

 

A few years ago players noted that there is no better place to play than Boston. I suspect that's not the case anymore. The collapse may have taken the most positive aspects of sox fandom with it; at least temporarily.

Should we ask the FO to issue guidelines on how to be a good fan-- passionate but not obsessive? The FO and the Players loves us if we fill their pockets.

[example1]

Should we ask the FO to issue guidelines on how to be a good fan-- passionate but not obsessive? The FO and the Players loves us if we fill their pockets.

 

So you think the media and fans consistently show just the right amount of focus and attention? I think they push players away with questions and attention to mundane and useless s***.

 

Other orgs can pay their players too in case you haven't noticed.

[a700hitter]

So you think the media and fans consistently show just the right amount of focus and attention? I think they push players away with questions and attention to mundane and useless s***.

 

Other orgs can pay their players too in case you haven't noticed.

I don't think the fans obsessiveness overcomes the aspect that most players like about Boston-- the place is full every night and there is a buzz of energy in the ballpark. I don't think they really concern themselves with the fans beyond that no matter what city they play in.

 

I have no idea why you seem so concerned about modifying fan behavior. Maybe you should draft the guidelines for the fans?:dunno:

 

For me different strokes for different folks. I could careless if I am sitting next to a guy in pinstripe suit with glasses or some guy with Sox logos painted on his face. Everyone is just there to enjoy the game. The only time the players notice is if there is a hot girl in the stands. Otherwise, we all just blend into the woodwork for them.

[a700hitter]

So you think the media and fans consistently show just the right amount of focus and attention? I think they push players away with questions and attention to mundane and useless s***.

 

Other orgs can pay their players too in case you haven't noticed.

But they probably don't make as much money off the field.

[User Name]

So let me get this straight. The renewed interest in Valentine is not because their top target, Dale Sveum, spurned them to go to the Cubs, but rather a super-secret plan that involved two separate manager searches?

 

Ok.

[FredLynn]

Any chance Valentine could have a positive impact on Matsuzaka or influence a decision (one way or the other) on Yu Darvish? A good portion of his experience was in Japan--I wonder what aspects of that game are part of his approach.

 

About Yu Darvish: after seeing Japanese pitchers come over here and fail one after the other despite lots of hype, I am very suspicious that Darvish is just another overhyped pitcher in the same mold as Matsusaka. Offhand, I cannot think of a single Japanese pitcher who has come over here and been as successful as some of the top pitchers from the US, the Dominican Republic, Mexico etc. Can anyone help me out here and name a truly top tier pitcher who is Japanese?

[User Name]

Hiroki Kuroda. Ironically, he came over to the US with little to no hype.

[Bellhorn04]

Hiroki Kuroda. Ironically' date=' he came over to the US with little to no hype.[/quote']

 

I would add Saito, who has put up very respectable numbers as a reliever.

[FredLynn]

Got those two down. Pretty good overall stats for both.

Here is a link to a list of Japanese players, including pitchers, who have made the transition to MLB. I count 34 pitchers on the list, including the two you guys mentioned, and that leaves 32 who were not successful here, overall. I don't really know the reason for this, but it does make me suspicious of hyped up Japanese pitchers making the move:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Japan

[jung]

As far as I am concerned going through all of this ******** to end up with Valentine is not an indication of how smart they are. It is just another indication of how screwed up they are. I don't care if they had a full blown clandestine effort going or just had Valentine in their hip pocket. Nobody else seemed to be whispering sweet nothings into Valentine's ear. Just make him part of the process and be done with it.

 

If anything I might believe that LL kept Valentine apart from the "process" because he did not want him to come out of that process unable to make his way to to the top of the list when in fact that was the guy JH and LL really wanted.

 

My last memory of Valentine as Manager was with the Mets in 2002, another team with veteran stars. How did that work out for ya'. As I posted earlier though the Sox have not been offering Managers long term contracts lately and Valentine is probably as anxious to get back into baseball as DD was with Baltimore. So if the Sox want to sign him to a short term deal, fine.

[SoxSport]

My impression is that Epstein deteriorated as GM, especially with his FA moves the last year or two. The Crawford signing was the clincher--something Henry said he did not favor but didn't prevent it. Crawford is really an anti-saber guy. That Epstein would spend so much of Henry's dollars on him was a sign maybe Epstein had changed his ways. And maybe Henry felt it was time for a change. When Henry said publically that he did not favor the signing, he was really telling you why Epstein was gone.

 

You would expect Cherington would not have near as much freedom as Epstein had. Theo didn't get that license until he put on his gorilla suit after a few years. You don't really know what's going on behind the scenes, but you can be sure Cherington is on a short leash as far as spending big money is concerned. And the manager's decision is clearly above him, as it usually is in these situations. It's not the GM's call.The media knows that.

 

The false perceptions created in the "public" portion of the manager search may be a result of having to feed the fans and the media, while the real business was going on in private. Ideally, the whole thing should have been private. In the least, it was not fair to the guys being interviewed. My guess is there is a bench coach in there somewhere among those interviewed. Probably Lamont or Lovullo. Mackanin is already a bench coach, which might explain why he is out.Though Alomar is also a bench coach.

[jung]

Well the Sox process at least the one they claim to have forces media involvement. One part of the process is a candidate press conference.

 

It really does not matter. JH and LL are going to hire the guy they want as long as he is available and wants to come here. Nobody else seems interested in Valentine and I guess he would want to come here. So, I guess he is going to be the guy.

[example1]

Got those two down. Pretty good overall stats for both.

Here is a link to a list of Japanese players, including pitchers, who have made the transition to MLB. I count 34 pitchers on the list, including the two you guys mentioned, and that leaves 32 who were not successful here, overall. I don't really know the reason for this, but it does make me suspicious of hyped up Japanese pitchers making the move:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Japan

 

Okajima was an all-star his rookie year and had 3 very good seasons for the Sox. I would include him in th elist of players who found some success.

 

Kazuhiro Sasaki had a 1.084 WHIP in 223 IP over 4 seasons for the Mariners, racking up 129 SVs and a 3.14 ERA. I would call that pretty good too.

 

I think that assuming a good Japanese pitcher is not possible is basically eliminating a bit portion of the baseball-playing world from the radar. Seems like a bad strategy.

[FredLynn]

Okajima was an all-star his rookie year and had 3 very good seasons for the Sox. I would include him in th elist of players who found some success.

 

Kazuhiro Sasaki had a 1.084 WHIP in 223 IP over 4 seasons for the Mariners, racking up 129 SVs and a 3.14 ERA. I would call that pretty good too.

 

I think that assuming a good Japanese pitcher is not possible is basically eliminating a bit portion of the baseball-playing world from the radar. Seems like a bad strategy.

 

I would say that Okajima had 2 1/2 good seasons with the team. After June 30 2009 his ERA climbed to 4.61 for the rest of the year, and after that, he stunk. He was decent, but not elite. I can buy Sasaki as being very good though. So thats just three guys out of 34 pitchers who came over who were successful here. I would not eliminate outright the possibility that Darvish could be a positive addition, but I would certainly look on it with a jaundiced eye. Too much hype.

[example1]

I would say that Okajima had 2 1/2 good seasons with the team. After June 30 2009 his ERA climbed to 4.61 for the rest of the year' date=' and after that, he stunk. He was decent, but not elite. I can buy Sasaki as being very good though. So thats just three guys out of 34 pitchers who came over who were successful here. I would not eliminate outright the possibility that Darvish could be a positive addition, but I would certainly look on it with a jaundiced eye. Too much hype.[/quote']

 

Well, with the Sox looking for someone who can provide simply decent #4 or #5 material, they might look at a guy like Hisashi Iwakuma. I suspect that middle relievers and lower-rotation starters could have some utility from Japan, due to them not having been scouted extensively, perhaps a lower cost, and the lower-risk associated with MR and 4/5 rotation spots.

 

I would say the Sox got a lot of value out of Okajima, for a pitcher that few had heard of he was the setup man for 3-4 seasons, with 2.5 being very good.

[FredLynn]

Well, with the Sox looking for someone who can provide simply decent #4 or #5 material, they might look at a guy like Hisashi Iwakuma. I suspect that middle relievers and lower-rotation starters could have some utility from Japan, due to them not having been scouted extensively, perhaps a lower cost, and the lower-risk associated with MR and 4/5 rotation spots.

 

I would say the Sox got a lot of value out of Okajima, for a pitcher that few had heard of he was the setup man for 3-4 seasons, with 2.5 being very good.

 

No arguement there. I was just wondering why some of the Japanese pitchers come here with so much hype (and now its Darvish) yet so few succeed. Remember all the hype about DiceK? He turned out to be very very ordinary here.

[jung]

No arguement there. I was just wondering why some of the Japanese pitchers come here with so much hype (and now its Darvish) yet so few succeed. Remember all the hype about DiceK? He turned out to be very very ordinary here.

 

Why so much hype....because they can do it....that's why. It is difficult for most of us to get a real read on how a player performing in the Japanese leagues will perform here. Plus there has always been an aura of mystery around the Japanese players and the team PR machines here just play that to the hilt. Everything about importing Japanese players smacks of a PR mans dream....the posting fee....interpreters. Every one of them is treated like what is called in the classic and antique car world a "barn find" which generally refers to a rare, classic car that has been sitting "mysteriously" unattended in some barn in East Nowheresville for the past fifty years.

[SoxSport]

Valentine has a good handle on Japanese players. He never liked Dice-K.

 

You look at Valentine's background and makeup, and the fact that Henry favored him,

you wonder why they went through that whole stupid interview process.

He profiles like the guy they need.

 

I would trust Henry. He has built two championship teams--in Miami and Boston.

[a700hitter]

From Tomase's article in the Herald posted a little while ago. It says what some of the posters here have been saying about the FO's apparent lack of faith in Big Ben.

 

The problem is the message it sends about ownership and its views of the new GM, who has been on the job for less than a month.

 

Sveum was clearly Cherington’s choice. Why make him the only candidate to receive a second interview if Cherington felt otherwise? But once Sveum sat down with the ownership trio of John Henry, Larry Lucchino and Tom Werner, something changed.

 

Now we’re hearing the Sox will expand their search to include candidates with more experience. And now we’re hearing about Valentine.

 

It’s too soon to say that ownership has hijacked the search. It is, after all, Henry’s money, and he can hire whom he pleases. If the team ends up with someone like Torey Lovullo, who clearly appeals to Cherington and has a lot to offer, even if he’d be a first-time manager, then it would be hard to argue that ownership forced anyone on the young GM.

 

But if Valentine comes bursting through those doors, it will be impossible to look at him as anything other than Lucchino’s man. And the Sox will have sent a strong message not only to their team, but to the rest of baseball, that they don’t trust their GM’s judgment.

 

That’s the greater concern in this process than the duration. The Sox can take as long as they want as long as they — and more specifically, Cherington — get their man.

[mvp 78]

There was also concern that LL would announce this over the weekend while Cher-bear is scouting in the DR. I hate LL. JH seems like a dope these days.

[SoxSport]

From Tomase's article in the Herald posted a little while ago. It says what some of the posters here have been saying about the FO's apparent lack of faith in Big Ben.

 

I don't think it's a "lack of faith". It's just a reflection that Cherington is not Epstein--he doesn't have the same authority that Epstein received after the 2nd championship in 2007. He is a first year newbie GM who hasn't accomplished anything yet at that level.

 

The Globe and other media outlets have been treating the new manager as Cherington's call--mainly because they regard Cherington as an extension of Epstein. That clearly isn't the case.

 

Who picked the Cubs manager? Was it Epstein or GM Hoyer? No doubt there. Epstein and Lucchino, by the way, are now at the same level.

 

Too bad the Red Sox didn't spell this out from the beginning of the search. That's where Henry and Lucchino fumbled the ball. Maybe they hadn't yet formulated in their minds the kind of manager they wanted--as opposed to the kind of manager the FO wanted. They let the FO put together the list--with predictable results. But there were other "name" guys they were contacting as well--out of the media spotlight.

 

The whole damn thing should have been done out of the spotlight.

[a700hitter]

I don't think it's a "lack of faith". It's just a reflection that Cherington is not Epstein--he doesn't have the same authority that Epstein received after the 2nd championship in 2007. He is a first year newbie GM who hasn't accomplished anything yet at that level.

 

The Globe and other media outlets have been treating the new manager as Cherington's call--mainly because they regard Cherington as an extension of Epstein. That clearly isn't the case.

 

Who picked the Cubs manager? Was it Epstein or GM Hoyer? No doubt there. Epstein and Lucchino, by the way, are now at the same level.

 

Too bad the Red Sox didn't spell this out from the beginning of the search. That's where Henry and Lucchino fumbled the ball. Maybe they hadn't yet formulated in their minds the kind of manager they wanted--as opposed to the kind of manager the FO wanted. They let the FO put together the list--with predictable results. But there were other "name" guys they were contacting as well--out of the media spotlight.

 

The whole damn thing should have been done out of the spotlight.

It's like you said, LL's job is on the line. Big Ben will likely be micromanaged as a result.

[jung]

LL's job is on the line

 

Ya' know I really do wonder about that. LL has a particular set of "qualities" that I bet JH would find hard to replace. Not saying that they are qualities that everybody would find admirable in President. I do think he is in JH's crosshairs but with way more rope than you would think.

[example1]

It's like you said' date=' LL's job is on the line. Big Ben will likely be micromanaged as a result.[/quote']

 

Apparently LL is largely responsible for the financial success of this team over the last decade or so (aside from the vast amounts of money that you have paid them, that is, a700 ). It seems like the Sox will be in a significantly stronger hiring position if they are able to hire for a President rather than GM.

 

I'm still optimistic that Cherington can pull this team together, but I'm really unsure about Bobby Valentine as a manager. It's interesting, Sveum would have represented a continuation of Francona's approach, Valentine is nearly the opposite. I'm less concerned about their differences on the field, but Valentine is going to bring a side-show element to a team and a town that will embrace it and create a new level of pressure-cooker. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.