Ben Cherington

[ORS]

Bowden was a first round pick, the 47th overall pick, in the 2005 draft. They got Shields in the 8th round, I believe. Friedman is a much better evaluator of talent than Epstein ever was.

 

Michael Bowden

 

 

 

 

Michael Matthew Bowden

 

Position: Pitcher

Bats: Right, Throws: Right

Height: 6' 3", Weight: 215 lb.

 

Born: September 9, 1986 in Winfield, IL (Age 25)

High School: Waubonsie Valley (Aurora, IL)

Drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the 1st round (47th pick) of the 2005 amateur draft.

Signed June 24, 2005. (All Transactions)

Yeah, but earlier you said Price. David Price was the consensus #1 pick in the draft by all evaluators in the year he came out, and Tampa picked him with the #1 pick in the draft.

 

EDIT: And I don't think MLB GM's are doing that much actual talent evaluation, especially not of the college and HS players, there's no time for them to get into that. They have deep scouting teams for that. I do agree that Tampa seems to have better scouts than the Sox do, which is ultimately the GM's responsibilty, as he uses a scout's information to make personnel decisions.

[FredLynn]

Look, I am not disputing Epstein's record with draft picks. I admit its pretty good. What I am saying is that a GM that misappropriates nearly a third of a billion dollars of his budget is not a very good GM.

[ORS]

Hansen was the consensus "Most Ready to Contribute Immediately" player coming out of that draft, and the best pure reliever. It's easy to tear draft pick choices apart in hindsight. Not even 1/2 of the top 10 picks every year go on to become good everyday players. Based on the information at the time, Hansen looked like a good pick.

[FredLynn]

Yeah, but earlier you said Price. David Price was the consensus #1 pick in the draft by all evaluators in the year he came out, and Tampa picked him with the #1 pick in the draft.

 

EDIT: And I don't think MLB GM's are doing that much actual talent evaluation, especially not of the college and HS players, there's no time for them to get into that. They have deep scouting teams for that. I do agree that Tampa seems to have better scouts than the Sox do, which is ultimately the GM's responsibilty, as he uses a scout's information to make personnel decisions.

 

I think thats probably true: the GM has to rely on his scouts for young talent. Epstein must have had some good ones, and the Rays have better ones. Still, big ticket FA acquisitions I am certain get approved and worked out by the GM. It is in that arena that I have a problem with his results.

[iMagic10]

I'm pretty excited for Cherington to come on as GM... I guess it's just me...

[3rdManOut]

At least they got someone. My fear was that they wouldn't find someone until maybe after the Winter Meetings or something.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Someone name one GM that hasn't drafted or picked up a bust. Don't worry I'll wait. I'll be right here when you find one.

 

The fact that Theo got some bad players but in return got a lot of good players can't make him that bad.

[FredLynn]

Someone name one GM that hasn't drafted or picked up a bust. Don't worry I'll wait. I'll be right here when you find one.

 

The fact that Theo got some bad players but in return got a lot of good players can't make him that bad.

 

The good players cost a total of $39.55M; the bad players cost a total of $325.30M. That is not a good track record.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Love how you ignored the main point. Don't worry I'll wait.

 

There is NWIH it's only 39 Million for the good players.

[FredLynn]

Love how you ignored the main point. Don't worry I'll wait.

 

There is NWIH it's only 39 Million for the good players.

 

Go ahead. Total it up. Maybe I made a calculation error. And I got your point. He is still very poor judge of FA talent IMO.

 

FREE AGENTS

Finds

DH David Ortiz (2003, 1 year, $1.2 million)

INF Bill Mueller (2002, 2 years, $4.5 million)

RHP Keith Foulke (2004, 3 years, $20.2 million)

LHP Hideki Okajima (2006, 2 years, $2.5 million)

RHP Takashi Saito (2009, 1 year, $1.5 million)

3B Adrian Beltre (2010, 1 year, $9 million)

RHP Alfredo Aceves (2011, I year, $650,000)

 

 

Busts

SS Edgar Renteria (2004, 4 years, $40 million)

RHP Matt Clement (2004, 3 years, $25.8 million)

SS Julio Lugo (2006, 4 years, $36 million)

RHP Daisuke Matsuzaka (2006, 6 years, $52 million plus $51 million posting fee)

RHP Brad Penny (2008, 1 year, $5 million)

RHP John Smoltz (2009, 1 year, $5.5 million)

RHP John Lackey (2009, 5 years, $82.5 million)

OF Mike Cameron (2009, 2 years, $15.5 million)

RHP Bobby Jenks (2 years, $12 million)

[iortiz]

I would've liked see Epstein managing a limited payroll team like KC or TB. Due the mess that I've seen the last 3 years, I refuse to call him not even an average manager. Sorry but I don't see it. His mess is in all the recent threads.

 

I'm not sure about this Cherington, and I really don't give a damn if he is Theo's bitch or his clone, but he should walk as well. As I said, blow the whole management staff, blow all of it up and start over from ashes.

 

I would go for a top management profile beyond the name, and mostly, out of this baseball environment. Someone with a MBA degree from Harvard Business School, Wharton, Stanford, etc. Someone who has already probed success in his/her career as a manager. Someone who has worked for at least 10 years as a CEO/Head in large and transnational corporations. Someone who has lived and execute corporate governance/risk/compliance. Someone with native and strong management skills -- communication, problem-solving, leadership, hands-on-business, strong hand, negotiation, etc.--

 

He/she should be our next GM.

[SoxSport]

What got Epstein into trouble was his free spending the last two years--on free agents that didn't pan out.

He wasted a lot of money playing moneyball.And his free agent track record before that sucked, too.

He was overrated because they won two Championships only partly his doing.

[SoxSport]

I would've liked see Epstein manage a limited payroll team like KC or TB. Due the mess that I've seen the last 3 years, I refuse to call him not even an average manager. Sorry but I don't see it. His mess is in all the recent threads.

 

I'm not sure about this Cherington, and I really don't give a damn if he is Theo's bitch or his clone, but he should walk as well. As I said, blow the whole management staff, blow all of it up and start over from ashes.

 

I would go for a top management profile beyond the name, and mostly, out of this baseball environment. Someone with a MBA degree from Harvard Business School, Wharton, Stanford, etc. Someone who has already probed success in his/her career as a manager. Someone who has worked for at least 10 years as a CEO/Head in large and transnational corporations. Someone who has lived and execute corporate governance/risk/compliance. Someone with native and strong management skills -- communication, problem-solving, leadership, hands-on-business, strong hand, negotiation, etc.--

He/she should be our next GM.

 

You mean somebody who posts regularly in Red Sox chatgroups?

[SoxSport]

Go ahead. Total it up. Maybe I made a calculation error. And I got your point. He is still very poor judge of FA talent IMO.

 

FREE AGENTS

Finds

DH David Ortiz (2003, 1 year, $1.2 million)

INF Bill Mueller (2002, 2 years, $4.5 million)

RHP Keith Foulke (2004, 3 years, $20.2 million)

LHP Hideki Okajima (2006, 2 years, $2.5 million)

RHP Takashi Saito (2009, 1 year, $1.5 million)

3B Adrian Beltre (2010, 1 year, $9 million)

RHP Alfredo Aceves (2011, I year, $650,000)

 

 

Busts

SS Edgar Renteria (2004, 4 years, $40 million)

RHP Matt Clement (2004, 3 years, $25.8 million)

SS Julio Lugo (2006, 4 years, $36 million)

RHP Daisuke Matsuzaka (2006, 6 years, $52 million plus $51 million posting fee)

RHP Brad Penny (2008, 1 year, $5 million)

RHP John Smoltz (2009, 1 year, $5.5 million)

RHP John Lackey (2009, 5 years, $82.5 million)

OF Mike Cameron (2009, 2 years, $15.5 million)

RHP Bobby Jenks (2 years, $12 million)

 

 

In school, that gets him a grade of C.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Wow.

 

I mean seriously guys? You're judging Theo's entire tenure on 7 good FA pick ups, and 9 bad FA pick ups.

 

Seriously?? You give him a C for having bad FA signings, and then refuse to consider how well he has locked up young talent, how well he had drafted, and how well he has traded. His 3 biggest assets.

 

And you say he wouldn't be as good of a GM for a small market team? Why not? All you're doing is taking his biggest falter (Big name FA signings) and replacing that with his biggest strengths (locking up young talent, drafting well, making good trades), not to mention finding good value for cheap money (as shown above, he locked up 7 FA's for a TOTAL of $39mm, all of which helped the team tremendously).

 

So you take away his money, give him a limited budget, high, protected draft picks, compensation picks, and somehow he gets worse.

 

Eternal pessimists here. Seriously.

[iortiz]

You mean somebody who posts regularly in Red Sox chatgroups?

Well, if someone around here reunite this profile, why not?

[a700hitter]

Theo is history. I'm not sure why we are debating his record. We owe him a debt of gratitude. He did a lot of great things and he never shirked accountability. Good luck to him. Now, we need to move on.

[FredLynn]

Wow.

 

I mean seriously guys? You're judging Theo's entire tenure on 7 good FA pick ups, and 9 bad FA pick ups.

 

Seriously?? You give him a C for having bad FA signings, and then refuse to consider how well he has locked up young talent, how well he had drafted, and how well he has traded. His 3 biggest assets.

 

And you say he wouldn't be as good of a GM for a small market team? Why not? All you're doing is taking his biggest falter (Big name FA signings) and replacing that with his biggest strengths (locking up young talent, drafting well, making good trades), not to mention finding good value for cheap money (as shown above, he locked up 7 FA's for a TOTAL of $39mm, all of which helped the team tremendously).

 

So you take away his money, give him a limited budget, high, protected draft picks, compensation picks, and somehow he gets worse.

 

Eternal pessimists here. Seriously.

 

I just don't see it the way you do Forsythe. I understand where you are coming from, but I think that if you add up ALL of the pieces its just not as rosy a picture as you paint. In a small market he would not even have had access to some of the "finds". He would have had to rely much more heavily on his farm system, much of which he is not even responsible for (as someone mentioned earlier, he hires guys to do that job). Without as many FA finds his record would be even worse than it was here.

With the Red Sox he was given a huge budget and squandered much of it. It didn't have to be that way if he were a better judge of FA talent. He isn't. He gets a "C" from me. Sorry.

[FredLynn]

Theo is history. I'm not sure why we are debating his record. We owe him a debt of gratitude. He did a lot of great things and he never shirked accountability. Good luck to him. Now' date=' we need to move on.[/quote']

 

Well, I guess THE KING OF TALKSOX HAS SPOKEN:harhar:

[FredLynn]

Theo is history. I'm not sure why we are debating his record. We owe him a debt of gratitude. He did a lot of great things and he never shirked accountability. Good luck to him. Now' date=' we need to move on.[/quote']

 

BTW: I agree about the debt of gratitude. I wish him nothing but the best. I would love to see him lead the Cubs to the WS. That would be something.

[iortiz]

In school' date=' that gets him a grade of C.[/quote']

 

You are too soft man... I would give him a F.

[VA Sox Fan]

Well' date=' I guess [b']THE KING OF SOXTALK HAS SPOKEN[/b]:harhar:

 

I know. Seriously? He debates when there is nothing to debate about....just to debate.

 

Done beating the dead horse a700?

[a700hitter]

Well' date=' I guess [b']THE KING OF TALKSOX HAS SPOKEN[/b]:harhar:

Luckily for you that I am a self-appointed ceremonial monarch and not a dictator.

[FredLynn]

I know. Seriously? He debates when there is nothing to debate about....just to debate.

 

Done beating the dead horse a700?

 

Its too soon for me to make enemies here..........

[SoxSport]

I get the impression that Theo is nothing special in today's GM market. There are lots of bright young guys who are asst GMs out there, including Cherington who I believe has already been announced as the Red Sox GM.

The difference is Theo is a "name", which the Cubs wanted. Cherington saves the Sox some money

without losing anything.

[iortiz]

I just don't see it the way you do Forsythe. I understand where you are coming from, but I think that if you add up ALL of the pieces its just not as rosy a picture as you paint. In a small market he would not even have had access to some of the "finds". He would have had to rely much more heavily on his farm system, much of which he is not even responsible for (as someone mentioned earlier, he hires guys to do that job). Without as many FA finds his record would be even worse than it was here.

With the Red Sox he was given a huge budget and squandered much of it. It didn't have to be that way if he were a better judge of FA talent. He isn't. He gets a "C" from me. Sorry.

 

Agree.

 

The "pessimist guys" (I would call them objective) have recently a little bit of reason.

[a700hitter]

I know. Seriously? He debates when there is nothing to debate about....just to debate.

 

Done beating the dead horse a700?

It takes at least 2 to debate or beat a dead horse, and when debating against me it takes a minimum of two posters debating against me just to make it fair. So, I don't know why you are singling me out.:dunno:

[VA Sox Fan]

It takes at least 2 to debate or beat a dead horse' date=' and when debating against me it takes a minimum of two posters debating against me just to make it fair. So, I don't know why you are singling me out.:dunno:[/quote']

 

My bad. Forgot how sensative you are. I should have also called out ex1. But I agree with him more than you.

 

My apologies KING OF TALKSOX! All hail the KING OF TALKSOX! :thumbsup:

 

Glad ORS is back.

[FredLynn]

It takes at least 2 to debate or beat a dead horse' date=' and when debating against me it takes a minimum of two posters debating against me just to make it fair. So, I don't know why you are singling me out.:dunno:[/quote']

 

What is wrong with debating this issue. He isn't even off our payroll yet. This will be an subject of discussion for months, maybe longer.

[a700hitter]

My bad. Forgot how sensative you are. I should have also called out ex1. But I agree with him more than you.

 

My apologies KING OF TALKSOX! All hail the KING OF TALKSOX! :thumbsup:

 

Glad ORS is back.

By now you know that I don't need others to agree with me. Being right is enough.