2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

And considering how poorly Tek faded...

[seabeachfred]

I can't say I'm sorry. I really dislike Damon...now.

 

Well someone will be dumb enough to sign him but inthe meantime he can polish up his old speech with the new location thrown in.......I REALLY LOVE BEING HERE; THIS IS THE CITY I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO PLAY IN AND ESPECIALLY FOR THIS TEAM. THIS IS A DREAM COME TRUE. What a dickweed he has become. I've despised him since he bolted for the Yankees Christmas six years ago.

[jung]

I would be interested in the Sox seeing what Iglesias has this spring. If he is truly the defensive force he has been portrayed as, then there is the possibility that his defensive prowess will be more important than his offensive deficiencies. It certainly won't be the first time that has happened at SS.

 

There has been few instances in Red Sox history where a position that is inherently important defensively is viewed as one where you can take a guy that really is a liability to the offense. I grew up feeling like the Red Sox invented the 12-8 scoring line.

[seabeachfred]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2012/02/19/is_it_time_for_red_sox_to_consider_jose_iglesias/?page=5

 

Cafardo is pushing Iglesias at the Globe this morning.

 

He thinks Iglesias has a real shot at starting SS. Bobby V. had Ordonez with the Mets,

a good field/no hit type that Iglesias may turn out to be. Hiding him in that lineup with a DH should be no problem.

 

I figure you have to expect some surprises with V., and this may be one of them. I've had a hunch about that. The kid is all-star ready defensively, and everybody is talking about his weak hitting--except the Red Sox pitchers.

 

I remember seeing Iglesias circle the bases as a pinch runner last year to score a key run, and thinking this kid can fly. Yet he has no base stealing history in the minors. Has the Red Sox philosophy been to discourage base-stealing? That is sure to change. Those runs-from- stolen-bases saber stats took a big bite out of them last year.

 

You can't "hide" an automatic out in the lineup; that is just plain stupid. Unless the whole team is hitting sooner or later, mostly sooner, a key situation comes up and that is the guy who is at the plate when the chips are down---and you'd be surprised how many times that exactly happened. My animus towards FrancoMa and Varitek trace to that miserable 2008 season when the brain challenged disgraced former and unemployed manager refused and refused and refused to pinch hit for Varitek in somewhere between 12-15 games that were critical that summer. Varitek failed every time but once (against Texas) and we lost most of those games and with it the division and home field advantage. It was one of three division titles Coma cost us in his managerial reign. In fact, after 2007 he was downright pathetic in the dugout----and that may be one reason the Cardinals rejected him for a g uy who never managed anywhere before.

[seabeachfred]

I guess no one was willing to pay anything for this broken down old wreck that Theo gave a 2 year retirement package of $18 million. Can you imagine $18 million for this guy and now we can't offer starting pitchers more than $5 million/year for 1 year and we have 2 relievers in our rotation that have never been starters? Good job Theo. Thanks.

 

700, I swear this is a true story. On Dirt Dogs back in early 2008 there was a poster who might have been Pumpsie Green who insisted that one of Theo's major weaknesses was that he was a lousy judge of talent. It was the first time I had heard that and realized, you know what, that's true. It became truer with each passing season and, let's be frank. The reason he signed Cameron and then moved Ellsbury to left to "save his legs" as he stupidly and ignorantly said, was to take the heat off of himself for letting Jason Bay and his 36 homers and 119 RBI's walk. Ells in left looked better there than Cameron who turned out to be a useless piece of s*** for us anyway.

[a700hitter]

You can't "hide" an automatic out in the lineup; that is just plain stupid. Unless the whole team is hitting sooner or later' date=' mostly sooner, a key situation comes up and that is the guy who is at the plate when the chips are down---and you'd be surprised how many times that exactly happened. My animus towards FrancoMa and Varitek trace to that miserable 2008 season when the brain challenged disgraced former and unemployed manager refused and refused and refused to pinch hit for Varitek in somewhere between 12-15 games that were critical that summer. Varitek failed every time but once (against Texas) and we lost most of those games and with it the division and home field advantage. It was one of three division titles Coma cost us in his managerial reign. In fact, after 2007 he was downright pathetic in the dugout----and that may be one reason the Cardinals rejected him for a g uy who never managed anywhere before.[/quote']The kid reminds Valentine of Rey Ordonez, another SS who couldn't hit. Bobby V had success with Ordonez, so I think he will give this kid every opportunity. I laugh at the comparisons to Ozzie Smith. The Wizzard was a once in a lifetime kind of fielder. It is a compliment to Iglesias at this point to be comparing him to Rey Ordonez. I'll be happy if he is that good.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The kid reminds Valentine of Rey Ordonez' date=' another SS who couldn't hit. Bobby V had success with Ordonez, so I think he will give this kid every opportunity. I laugh at the comparisons to Ozzie Smith. The Wizzard was a once in a lifetime kind of fielder. It is a compliment to Iglesias at this point to be comparing him to Rey Ordonez. I'll be happy if he is that good.[/quote']

 

Nobody would be mentioning Ozzie Smith if it wasn't justified. Numerous scouts have likened Iglesias's defense to that of Ozzie Smith. It's not like we're all just bullshitting and making it up out of nowhere.

 

Regardless, we're in the same mindset that having Iglesias at SS will help this team much more than Aviles at SS. Aviles can hit better, but Iglesias will give the pitching staff so much more confidence in the defense, and defense up the middle is incredibly important. That is the much bigger issue, too.

[jung]

Yea I find it hard to believe anybody could be comparable to Smith. There are guys that are brilliant defensively but Smith was a magician. There was a hit and there it wasn't.

 

I would be totally shocked if Iglesias even had that potential. For better or worse it does sound like his hitting has to improve.

[Palodios]

You can't "hide" an automatic out in the lineup; that is just plain stupid. Unless the whole team is hitting.....

 

And what if the whole team IS hitting? There are six bats on this team that could potentially put up MVP caliber numbers. Six.

 

The backend is pretty decent too-- Cody Ross will likely hit .260-.270 with 20 home runs, and Sweeney got on base at .350 in Oakland, both playing in pitcher's stadiums last year, and right at prime years. When Salty is DFAed and replaced by Lavarnway, this will be a very potent lineup, even if there is a hole at #9.

[User Name]

Reddick had one good month and then was miserable.

 

I'm sure the Sox will have no problem replacing April 2011 CC's performance for the first month.

 

Even with Youk and Ortiz getting a year older, they'll still be among thebest offensive producers at their position.

 

The holes they have this year are the same as last year except for Scutaro. Iglesias won't hurt the offense that much. His defense will make up for the offensive downgrade.

 

Come on man, everything that can go wrong will go wrong. You should know better. They will all suck/get injured or both.

[FredLynn]

What was this teams strength last season?

 

Offense.

 

What was this teams weakness last season?

 

Starting Pitching.

 

What positions are absolutely vital to a successful starting pitching rotation?

 

Up the middle (specifically 2B and SS).

 

So why the hell wouldn't we try to make our team better by taking away from something we have an abundance of to make an impact on an area that we have a weakness?

 

You know how Ozzie Smith did in his rookie campaign? .623 OPS. Know what his WAR was? 3.1.

 

Defense up the middle is incredibly important, and that will help out our SP tremendously.

 

Yes, starting pitching is the key to the season, and we have three SP right now. That is the source of the pessimism about the season. Our pitching stunk last year and it has not improved this year, what with the accumulation of the various dung heaps our GM has stashed. One of the dung heaps will be our #5 SP; another will be first out of the minors as soon as the inevitable injuries begin to mount up.

You cannot seriously begin to compare Iglesias to Ozzie Smith, a hall of fame SS, right? We cannot afford another player like him BECAUSE our SP is so weak (our bullpen is nothing great either). If we are going to make the playoffs we will need to BASH our way in. Iglesias is incompetent with a bat. He should be in Pawtucket until he either proves he can hit or our pitching greatly improves so we can withstand a black hole at SS.

[User Name]

700' date=' I swear this is a true story. On Dirt Dogs back in early 2008 there was a poster who might have been Pumpsie Green who insisted that one of Theo's major weaknesses was that he was a lousy judge of talent. It was the first time I had heard that and realized, you know what, that's true. It became truer with each passing season and, let's be frank. The reason he signed Cameron and then moved Ellsbury to left to "save his legs" as he stupidly and ignorantly said, was to take the heat off of himself for letting Jason Bay and his 36 homers and 119 RBI's walk. Ells in left looked better there than Cameron who turned out to be a useless piece of s*** for us anyway.[/quote']

 

...and Jason Bay has gone on to become one of the worst position players in MLB and still has a couple years left in his contract at over 15 mill per. Your argument here is?

 

Also, go figure, neither Varitek nor Wakefield ended up arriving at camp. So much for that prediction and all the insults hurled at anyone who said otherwise huh?

[User Name]

Yes, starting pitching is the key to the season, and we have three SP right now. That is the source of the pessimism about the season. Our pitching stunk last year and it has not improved this year, what with the accumulation of the various dung heaps our GM has stashed. One of the dung heaps will be our #5 SP; another will be first out of the minors as soon as the inevitable injuries begin to mount up.

You cannot seriously begin to compare Iglesias to Ozzie Smith, a hall of fame SS, right? We cannot afford another player like him BECAUSE our SP is so weak (our bullpen is nothing great either). If we are going to make the playoffs we will need to BASH our way in. Iglesias is incompetent with a bat. He should be in Pawtucket until he either proves he can hit or our pitching greatly improves so we can withstand a black hole at SS.

 

He's not doing the comparing. Talent evaluators are doing the comparing. While it is premature and should be taken with a great grain of salt, i'm going to go out on a limb and say that talent evaluators are better at evaluating talent (see what i did there?) than we are, and their opinions may mean the kid's defense is something special.

 

You wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their opinions if they were negative, which is par for the course.

[FredLynn]

He's not doing the comparing. Talent evaluators are doing the comparing. While it is premature and should be taken with a great grain of salt, i'm going to go out on a limb and say that talent evaluators are better at evaluating talent (see what i did there?) than we are, and their opinions may mean the kid's defense is something special.

 

You wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their opinions if they were negative, which is par for the course.

 

Great. Then YOU show me a quote from any talent evaluator who thinks that Iglesias will one day be as good as Smith.

You underestimate the value of the opinions here. Talent evaluators are just guessing..just like we are. They just get paid for it.

[mvp 78]

http://www.milb.com/news/print.jsp?ymd=20111214&content_id=26160574&vkey=news_t533&fext=.jsp&sid=t533

 

That's just 1. I found others with a quick google search.

[FredLynn]

Nobody would be mentioning Ozzie Smith if it wasn't justified. Numerous scouts have likened Iglesias's defense to that of Ozzie Smith. It's not like we're all just bullshitting and making it up out of nowhere.

 

Regardless, we're in the same mindset that having Iglesias at SS will help this team much more than Aviles at SS. Aviles can hit better, but Iglesias will give the pitching staff so much more confidence in the defense, and defense up the middle is incredibly important. That is the much bigger issue, too.

 

Iglesias is not Smith and likely never will be close to him. All kinds of useless comparisons get made about some minor league players that wind up being totally wrong. Iglesias hasn't even won the starting job on a team; Smith is a hall of fame SS. Its idiotic to make the comparison at this point. Frankly, my guess is that Iglesias will have a hard time just making into the major leagues.

[FredLynn]

http://www.milb.com/news/print.jsp?ymd=20111214&content_id=26160574&vkey=news_t533&fext=.jsp&sid=t533

 

That's just 1. I found others with a quick google search.

 

This?

"To me, he's a wizard with the glove (think Ozzie Smith)," added the scout. "That, alone, makes him a fascinating player."

 

The evaluator didn't say his is going to be as good as Smith. The writer included it in parentheses.

No reputable talent evaluator is going to say the a guy who doesn't even start for his team is going to be as good as a hall of famer.

[Muggah]

700' date=' I swear this is a true story. On Dirt Dogs back in early 2008 there was a poster who might have been Pumpsie Green who insisted that one of Theo's major weaknesses was that he was a lousy judge of talent. It was the first time I had heard that and realized, you know what, that's true. It became truer with each passing season and, let's be frank. The reason he signed Cameron and then moved Ellsbury to left to "save his legs" as he stupidly and ignorantly said, was to take the heat off of himself for letting Jason Bay and his 36 homers and 119 RBI's walk. Ells in left looked better there than Cameron who turned out to be a useless piece of s*** for us anyway.[/quote']

 

Don't slight yourself either, Fred. A few of us were way ahead of the curve when it came to spotting Blunder as incompetent when it came to judging talent. And boy did we take heat for it from the cheerleaders. But like most things in life, the truth always surfaces.

[mvp 78]

Don't slight yourself either' date=' Fred. A few of us were way ahead of the curve when it came to spotting Blunder as incompetent when it came to judging talent. And boy did we take heat for it from the cheerleaders. But like most things in life, the truth always surfaces.[/quote']

 

I've never known such an incompetent GM to get 2 rings.

[Muggah]

I've never known such an incompetent GM to get 2 rings.

 

There's a first time for everything. Isn't there?

[Palodios]

This?

"To me, he's a wizard with the glove (think Ozzie Smith)," added the scout. "That, alone, makes him a fascinating player."

 

The evaluator didn't say his is going to be as good as Smith. The writer included it in parentheses.

No reputable talent evaluator is going to say the a guy who doesn't even start for his team is going to be as good as a hall of famer.

 

 

Maybe this was added by the writer, or maybe it wasn't. Many many many scouts have compared him to Ozzie Smith. He's an 80 on all the defensive scouting scales that you will find. He's also only 21 years old. His glove is the real deal.

 

For you and the rest of the pessimists, if you're going to be cynical, stick to his bat, please.

[jacksonianmarch]

Couple things....

 

1. Cody Ross is an upgrade over Drew from 2011 and Reddick. But not by much. He may have a career OPS of .779, but he hasnt sniffed since 2009. He's going to enter a league with much better pitching coming off 2 seasons of .730ish OPS. To expect him to all of a sudden hit much better is a bit homerish. It's possible, but not likely.

 

2. You guys are overestimating Iglesias' bat if you think he can OPS even in the .600s. In AAA last yr, he OPS'd .554, which is absolutely and totally horrible. He's a wizard with the glove, but thinking he's gonna break camp as your starting SS and not be a major drain on your offense is obscene. A guy with a .554OPS is effectively a pitcher in the NL. So your lineup will go from having professional hitters 1-9 to a lineup with 1-8 and a pitcher.

 

3. Saying the offense at SS isnt going to be a humongous dropoff with Iglesias there because Scutaro only played 110 games is also absurd. The sox SS's were 10th in baseball with a .730OPS. If Iglesias were your starter, then you could see that number plummet by 200 points.

[seabeachfred]

From everything that has been said about Iglesias, his fielding prowess is off the charts. No one disagrees with that. The question isn't whether he is in Ozzie Smith's class and no one has said that to my knowledge. Ozzie is the best fielding shortstop of all time in my opinion and Iggy doesn't need that kind of pressure handed to him. My argument is his bat, or lack of it, his poor plate discipline, his total

absence of power and his wasted speed where he cannot use it to steal bases.

 

As Palodios said, though, IF six or seven of our hitters are hitting it is possible we could carry such a weak bat for the defense he gives us, but, again, we better be ready to pinch hit for him in the late innings of a close game. However, if we have some of our batters imitating Crawford, Youkilis and Drew, circa 2011, no way we can carry such a weak bat.

[a700hitter]

Garza on the Sox: 'I kicked the crap out of them'

Print | Comments (7) Posted by Amalie Benjamin February 19, 2012 02:30 PM

 

By Amalie Benjamin, Globe Staff

 

MESA, Ariz. — Mark down June 15, 16, and 17 on your calender. That's when the Red Sox visit the Chicago Cubs.

 

Not only will the Sox see former general manager Theo Epstein wear Cubs blue and red, but they'll also see Matt Garza, the former Rays pitcher who had some choice words to say about his performance against the Sox over the last couple of years.

 

Asked what he recalled about Epstein's tenure with Boston, Garza said, "That I was able to kick the crap out of them every year, year in and year out, for the last three seasons. That's what I remember."

 

For the record, Garza is 7-4 with a 3.63 ERA in his career against the Red Sox, and 5-4 with a 3.97 ERA in those three years (2008-2010) with the Rays. His greatest achievements against Boston came in the 2008 ALCS, which Tampa Bay won in seven games over the Sox. In that series, Garza went 2-0, allowing two runs in 13 innings. He earned the wins in Game 3 and Game 7.

 

Garza, whose name came up in the yet-to-be-completed compensation talks between the Cubs and Sox for Epstein, said he too would have asked for the best from Chicago.

 

"He won two World Series over there in eight, nine years," Garza said. "Why not go after a starter where they lacked depth and/or go after cash or a guy who's 21 and already an All-Star, premier prospect in [brett] Jackson.

 

"Why not? Why not see what you can get? I would have. I would have asked for the farm, say 'I want this guy, this guy, this guy,' just see what they can grab."

[example1]

.623

.522

.589

.549

.653

 

Those are the OPS for Ozzie Smith in his age 23, 24, 25, 26 and 27 seasons. In his 19 seasons he had an OPS+ above 100 only FOUR TIMES.

 

Ozzie Smith was such a rare and strange talent that evaluating his value and worthiness of being in MLB essentially relies on a different paradigm of player evaluation. His offense was entirely insignificant. His best season was 1987 when he had a .775 OPS (!!). Dustin Pedroia shits .775 OPS before breakfast.

 

It is theoretically possible that a player could be all glove and pitcher-level bat and still be a net positive for the team; he would just need to get to almost every ball hit his way, turn spectacular double plays, cut down runs at the plate when no other player would even think about it, extend his defense beyond the SS position (flyballs in LF/CF, plays in the hole, etc.,). Ozzie did it and talent evaluators don't make comparisons to him lightly.

 

Iglesias was the youngest player in AAA last year, so his offensive numbers shouldn't be too surprising. Also, as a 20 year old at AA he put up a .672 OPS. By comparison, that's better than Ozzie Smith's career OPS and would be servicable at the MLB level if his defense is close to Smith's. Can Iglesias develop enough to do that at the MLB level? We will have to see.

 

Nobody would willingly put a .600 OPS in the lineup every day... except that we would all gladly do it to have Tim Lincecum or Felix Hernandez on the mound every day. There is a point where defensively having a tremendous glove at SS IS worth the shot in offense.

 

Would we be willing to trade a s*** bat for a .75 reduction in team ERA over the course of the season? If a SS made every pitcher on the team 9% more effective, would that be a worthwhile trade off?

 

I tell you this: I'm glad that the Red Sox have a FO full of intelligent people who are capable of making those types of evaluations, rather than a message board full of people who think they know what they're talking about without having ever seen the kid play. I would much rather have the combination of elite scouts and analysts (like Bill James) tackling this complicated problem, and trust that they can come to a conclusion that is based on the facts, rather than opinions based on limited observations.

[a700hitter]

.623

.522

.589

.549

.653

 

Those are the OPS for Ozzie Smith in his age 23, 24, 25, 26 and 27 seasons. In his 19 seasons he had an OPS+ above 100 only FOUR TIMES.

 

Ozzie Smith was such a rare and strange talent that evaluating his value and worthiness of being in MLB essentially relies on a different paradigm of player evaluation. His offense was entirely insignificant. His best season was 1987 when he had a .775 OPS (!!). Dustin Pedroia shits .775 OPS before breakfast.

 

It is theoretically possible that a player could be all glove and pitcher-level bat and still be a net positive for the team; he would just need to get to almost every ball hit his way, turn spectacular double plays, cut down runs at the plate when no other player would even think about it, extend his defense beyond the SS position (flyballs in LF/CF, plays in the hole, etc.,). Ozzie did it and talent evaluators don't make comparisons to him lightly.

 

Iglesias was the youngest player in AAA last year, so his offensive numbers shouldn't be too surprising. Also, as a 20 year old at AA he put up a .672 OPS. By comparison, that's better than Ozzie Smith's career OPS and would be servicable at the MLB level if his defense is close to Smith's. Can Iglesias develop enough to do that at the MLB level? We will have to see.

 

Nobody would willingly put a .600 OPS in the lineup every day... except that we would all gladly do it to have Tim Lincecum or Felix Hernandez on the mound every day. There is a point where defensively having a tremendous glove at SS IS worth the shot in offense.

 

Would we be willing to trade a s*** bat for a .75 reduction in team ERA over the course of the season? If a SS made every pitcher on the team 9% more effective, would that be a worthwhile trade off?

 

I tell you this: I'm glad that the Red Sox have a FO full of intelligent people who are capable of making those types of evaluations, rather than a message board full of people who think they know what they're talking about without having ever seen the kid play. I would much rather have the combination of elite scouts and analysts (like Bill James) tackling this complicated problem, and trust that they can come to a conclusion that is based on the facts, rather than opinions based on limited observations.

I really don't think we should be comparing any minor leaguer to Ozzie Smith. Ozzie was the best ever. It's just crazy to be mentioning this kid in the same sentence as Ozzie.

[jung]

I tell you this: I'm glad that the Red Sox have a FO full of intelligent people who are capable of making those types of evaluations, rather than a message board full of people who think they know what they're talking about without having ever seen the kid play. I would much rather have the combination of elite scouts and analysts (like Bill James) tackling this complicated problem, and trust that they can come to a conclusion that is based on the facts, rather than opinions based on limited observations.

 

Congratulations.....takes the pomposity award by a country mile.....Actually retires the trophy.

 

You had a good post there all the way up till the end when you apparently could not restrain yourself.

[Palodios]

Congratulations.....takes the pomposity award by a country mile.....Actually retires the trophy.

 

You had a good post there all the way up till the end when you apparently could not restrain yourself.

 

I'm not sure if pompous is the correct word you're looking for here.

[jung]

I'm not sure if pompous is the correct word you're looking for here.

 

No I meant Pomposity. You are correct in one respect. It could have retired the "Pompous" trophy as well. Maybe that in itself is a special distinction although it did not occur to me at the time.

[a700hitter]

I'm glad that the Red Sox have a FO full of intelligent people who are capable of making those types of evaluations' date=' rather than a message board full of people who think they know what they're talking about without having ever seen the kid play. [/quote']Are the Red Sox the only team with a FO full of intelligent people? There are probably many teams with smart FO people. In fact, I would find it hard to believe that there are more than a couple of teams that would hire unintelligent people.. Despite all that brain power in MLB Front Offices, some teams still finish last. Go figure. Can we criticize their moves that led to those last place finishes even though their so smart? What about the 3rd place teams or other underchieving teams? Which can us dummies discuss? Do we have to wait until the results are in to discuss them?:rolleyes: