2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[User Name]

haha' date=' that is funny. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Wake and Varitek with a camp invite. I hope that they both retire. I would not mind one bit if either tries to work with the organization as a coach in one way or another, especially Tek. I think Tek could help with working with catchers and would be a good mentor for a guy like Lavarnway. I just don't think either has what it takes to play anymore. I hope they both realize that. I want both to retire after playing their last years as a Red Sox. That means they both have to retire this year though.[/quote']

 

Yeah i don't think Wakefield is going to happen, and Varitek would probably take an invite as a slap the face. The outlook for both of them not playing in 2012 looks good, let's hope it stays that way.

[redsoxfan3]

Yeah i don't think Wakefield is going to happen' date=' and Varitek would probably take an invite as a slap the face. The outlook for both of them not playing in 2012 looks good, let's hope it stays that way.[/quote']

 

I agree. I just am afraid that we cave in, although I hope BC is stronger than that. I appreciate everything they have done for this team and all of the great years they have had, but there is a time when someone has to call it quits.

[Bellhorn04]

IMO the perfect scenario for Wake is that he retires but we can summon him to un-retire in emergency situations for the next 10 years. It's not like he has to get in shape to do what he does.

[FredLynn]

I don't care about the interview, and i don't care whether his attitude is liked or not. I care about the Red Sox winning.

 

As i mentioned above, there is no plausible scenario where the Red Sox get rid of Beckett without screwing themselves. Making 17 million per year, the Sox are not getting anything close to real value for him unless they eat a huge chunk of money. Saying otherwise is unrealistic.

 

While clubhouse chemistry is important, talent is more important. They need production, and getting rid of a productive guy because of his attitude after they hired a manager to specifically to correct attitude issues would be stupid on top of stupid.

 

I agree that winning is the only thing that is important. I also believe that Beckett's attitude negatively impacts our ability to win games. Thats why he should be traded-if he cannot change.

[Palodios]

If the Red Sox don't sign Oswalt, then Wakefield sees time in 2012. What do you think Ben is waiting on? If he's going the garbage pile route, Wakefield fits the bill.

 

Seriously, what do they expect out of the group? Most of the them had ERAs in the 4s in weaker divisions. Wakefield is relatively healthy, had a 5.12 ERA last year, and can eat innings. With the way the team looks now, the Red Sox need 2-3 of them to perform-- maybe more with injuries. Wakefield is starting to look just as good as any of those guys, assuming he gets considerable rest.

 

Edit: Just to be clear-- I don't want to this to happen, but quite frankly, they have not made it difficult to earn a spot in this rotation.

[User Name]

I agree that winning is the only thing that is important. I also believe that Beckett's attitude negatively impacts our ability to win games. Thats why he should be traded-if he cannot change.

 

If you measure his performance against the impact of his attitude, there's no way to justify losing his contributions because of what is really an intangible.

 

Even if he can't change, as long as he shuts up and performs, and Bobby V. can keep the rest of the players in the same wavelength, he is a net positive.

[User Name]

If the Red Sox don't sign Oswalt, then Wakefield sees time in 2012. What do you think Ben is waiting on? If he's going the garbage pile route, Wakefield fits the bill.

 

Seriously, what do they expect out of the group? Most of the them had ERAs in the 4s in weaker divisions. Wakefield is relatively healthy, had a 5.12 ERA last year, and can eat innings. With the way the team looks now, the Red Sox need 2-3 of them to perform-- maybe more with injuries. Wakefield is starting to look just as good as any of those guys, assuming he gets considerable rest.

 

Edit: Just to be clear-- I don't want to this to happen, but quite frankly, they have not made it difficult to earn a spot in this rotation.

 

Don't they currently have a full rotation (counting Aceves) and it will simply be competition for the #5 spot? Under these circumstances, Wakefield is not a fit.

[redsoxfan3]

If the Red Sox don't sign Oswalt, then Wakefield sees time in 2012. What do you think Ben is waiting on? If he's going the garbage pile route, Wakefield fits the bill.

 

Seriously, what do they expect out of the group? Most of the them had ERAs in the 4s in weaker divisions. Wakefield is relatively healthy, had a 5.12 ERA last year, and can eat innings. With the way the team looks now, the Red Sox need 2-3 of them to perform-- maybe more with injuries. Wakefield is starting to look just as good as any of those guys, assuming he gets considerable rest.

 

Edit: Just to be clear-- I don't want to this to happen, but quite frankly, they have not made it difficult to earn a spot in this rotation.

 

At least we have about 37 washed up veterans who we can give a chance. You might as well add Wake to make it 38. It couldn't hurt anything. /sarcasm

 

I would rather him retire and us try to give Bard and Doubront a chance in the 4th and 5th spots. It is possible Doubront doesn't work out, so I hope Padilla could give us some decent innings as a 5th starter. I would rather have Doubront or Padilla in that 5th spot rather than Wake. I am hoping we can get by with what we have and we can pull off a trade at the deadline. Maybe Dice-K could even redeem himself when he comes back. I am still holding out hope for Oswalt.

[User Name]

Wakefield basically cannot perform anymore. He also has several lingering physical problems.

[Palodios]

Don't they currently have a full rotation (counting Aceves) and it will simply be competition for the #5 spot? Under these circumstances' date=' Wakefield is not a fit.[/quote']

 

I doubt Aceves makes the rotation-- they need him in the bullpen. If he stays, they're going to need a #5, a #6 swing man/spot starter, and probably another starter after that. I just don't see them finding three guys who can perform better than Wakefield out of the current group.

[redsoxfan3]

Don't they currently have a full rotation (counting Aceves) and it will simply be competition for the #5 spot? Under these circumstances' date=' Wakefield is not a fit.[/quote']

 

Does anyone know the timeline for when Jenks is going to be healthy? Because obviously Aceves and Bard are both competing for starting spots. If both for one reason or another make the rotation, I would be concerned with our bullpen depth, but with a healthy reliable Jenks, along with Melancon and Bailey, I would not be as concerned. It might be a stretch to expect anything from Jenks at this point though.

[User Name]

I doubt Aceves makes the rotation-- they need him in the bullpen. If he stays' date=' they're going to need a #5, a #6 swing man/spot starter, and probably another starter after that. I just don't see them finding three guys who can perform better than Wakefield out of the current group.[/quote']

 

We have a different take on this. I can't see them finding them three guys who can be worse....

[redsoxfan3]

I doubt Aceves makes the rotation-- they need him in the bullpen. If he stays' date=' they're going to need a #5, a #6 swing man/spot starter, and probably another starter after that. I just don't see them finding three guys who can perform better than Wakefield out of the current group.[/quote']

 

Opening day, I could see Doubront as our 5th starter and Miller as the swingman/spot starter. I am really really hoping Doubront proves himself as a good starter this Spring. I would take a 4.5 ERA with a 1.30 WHIP. I think he is capable of that if he improves his work ethic.

[Palodios]

Wakefield basically cannot perform anymore. He also has several lingering physical problems.

 

Pitchers by ERA 2011

 

Wakefield 5.12

Miller 5.54

Germano 5.68

Cook -- 6.08

Silva didn't make a major league roster. Tazawa was hurt all year and hasn't shown he can succeed in the MLB-- same with Doubront.

 

Padilla pitched 8 innings. His new found fastball could be good for this team, but who knows? His career WHIP is 1.37. Wakefield's WHIP in 2011 was 1.36.

[User Name]

Pitchers by ERA 2011

 

Wakefield 5.12

Miller 5.54

Germano 5.68

Cook -- 6.08

Silva didn't make a major league roster. Tazawa was hurt all year and hasn't shown he can succeed in the MLB-- same with Doubront.

 

Padilla pitched 8 innings. His new found fastball could be good for this team, but who knows? His career WHIP is 1.37. Wakefield's WHIP in 2011 was 1.36.

 

Cook was injured, Miller will be deployed as a reliever.

 

But here's the real problem, Wakefield will be 46 on opening day, and he has more problems than North Korea.

 

Also, for what it's worth, Wakefield's WHIP as a starter was 1.39 and his OPS against .803. That is awful.

[Palodios]

Cook was injured, Miller will be deployed as a reliever.

 

But here's the real problem, Wakefield will be 46 on opening day, and he has more problems than North Korea.

 

Also, for what it's worth, Wakefield's WHIP as a starter was 1.39 and his OPS against .803. That is awful.

 

45, actually, and he's a knuckleballer, so who even cares how old he is? What has he lost? He's been the same one-trick pony for the last twenty years. The only difference is his health.

 

Look at his splits from last year-- he had a 4.74 ERA before the All-Star break with okay peripherals. He'll probably start out decent and turn terrible when he wears down. Decent for a little while couldn't hurt.

 

And seriously, have you seen the OPS against for the other guys? They're just as bad as he is.

[User Name]

45' date=' actually, and he's a knuckleballer, so who even cares how old he is? What has he lost? He's been the same one-trick pony for the last twenty years. The only difference is his health.[/quote']

 

But his one trick doesn't work anymore.

 

Look at his splits from last year-- he had a 4.74 ERA before the All-Star break with okay peripherals. He'll probably start out decent and turn terrible when he wears down. Decent for a little while couldn't hurt.

 

Mostly as a reliever. He can't start anymore.

 

And seriously, have you seen the OPS against for the other guys? They're just as bad as he is.

 

The difference is upside, which some of these guys have. Wakefield doesn't.

 

I won't get mad if they bring him back, i just see no point in it, specially after his PR fiasco of last year.

[Palodios]

 

Also, for what it's worth, Wakefield's WHIP as a starter was 1.39 and his OPS against .803. That is awful.

 

 

Ops's

 

Tazawa in 2009 -- .997 2011-- .974

Cook .874

Miller .850

Germano .815

Doubront's was .789 in 2010 and in the .900s this year.

Padilla/Silva didn't pitch.

[User Name]

Ops's

 

Tazawa in 2009 -- .997 2011-- .974

Cook .874

Miller .850

Germano .815

Doubront's was .789 in 2010 and in the .900s this year.

Padilla/Silva didn't pitch.

 

Germano and Miller aren't starting options. Tazawa and Doubront are younger guys who were injured but have much better stuff than Wakefield. The rest all had injury problems.

 

Even while taking that into account, most of them still have better upside than Wakefield.

[Palodios]

But his one trick doesn't work anymore.

 

[/Quote]

 

How is the pitch any different than it ever was?

 

 

Mostly as a reliever. He can't start anymore.[/Quote]

This is circumstantial. He started the year in relief (when he was healthy) and ended the year in the rotation. Thus, he wore down when he was starting. Do you really think he's any more effective as a reliever than a starter?

 

 

The difference is upside, which some of these guys have. Wakefield doesn't.

 

You're banking on some of these guys having years like they used to have a few years ago. Just three years ago, Wakefield pitched 181 innings, with a 112 ERA+, 4.13 ERA, and 1.14 WHIP. His arsenal hasn't changed.

 

 

I won't get mad if they bring him back, i just see no point in it, specially after his PR fiasco of last year.

 

What PR fiasco?

[User Name]

How is the pitch any different than it ever was?

 

Results speak for themselves.

 

This is circumstantial. He started the year in relief (when he was healthy) and ended the year in the rotation. Thus, he wore down when he was starting. Do you really think he's any more effective as a reliever than a starter?

 

The circumstance is age. Knuckler or no knuckler, 45 years of age is old, and the deterioration of his body and skills is pronounced. This is undeniable.

 

Also, the reliever point is not a position i presented. I just pointed out his numbers as a starter. Don't see where you got that from.

 

You're banking on some of these guys having years like they used to have a few years ago. Just three years ago, Wakefield pitched 181 innings, with a 112 ERA+, 4.13 ERA, and 1.14 WHIP. His arsenal hasn't changed.

 

But his age, durability and effectiveness have. You're ignoring the biggest problem: His age. The decline is obvious. He has declined every season since three years ago. It is a trend.

 

Let's not try to pretend like 45 is the new 35. There's a reason why not a lot of people play deep into their 40's, and even though he's a knuckleballer, it is clear that he basically has nothing left.

 

 

 

What PR fiasco?

 

The "fans" deserve to see me break the record" comment. I thought it harmless, but people have run with that s*** and overreacted, just like they have with Ortiz, the beer and chicken crew, and Crawford.

[Palodios]

The circumstance is age. Knuckler or no knuckler, 45 years of age is old, and the deterioration of his body and skills is pronounced. This is undeniable.

 

This is a very good point, and I will assume is the core of your argument. What I'm suggesting is not that he will throw 200 innings and light the world on fire. What I'm suggesting is that as a spot starter, playing in a pinch-- I would take Wakefield over Germano, Miller, and Silva any day of the week.

[Palodios]

(and might I add, I enjoy having an argument with you much more than many of the other posters on here )

[User Name]

This is a very good point' date=' and I will assume is the core of your argument. What I'm suggesting is not that he will throw 200 innings and light the world on fire. What I'm suggesting is that as a spot starter, playing in a pinch-- I would take Wakefield over Germano, Miller, and Silva any day of the week.[/quote']

 

Well we can agree to disagree here. I think they can pull something from all of them that would avoid the drama and media backlash from last year's issues.

 

If you read and watch what the media says, a lot of sportswriters identify Wakefield, along with the chicken crew, Ortiz, and Crawford as the main problem with the 2011 Red Sox. Everyone except Wakefield, in my opinion, will provide enough production to be worth the drama.

[User Name]

(and might I add' date=' I enjoy having an argument with you much more than many of the other posters on here )[/quote']

 

I'm sexy and i know it.

[FredLynn]

This is a very good point' date=' and I will assume is the core of your argument. What I'm suggesting is not that he will throw 200 innings and light the world on fire. What I'm suggesting is that as a spot starter, playing in a pinch-- I would take Wakefield over Germano, Miller, and Silva any day of the week.[/quote']

 

Well, you can have him. Just as long as the selfish jerk does not don a Sox uniform ever again.

[seabeachfred]

You could' date=' but it's really hard to do a prostate exam through a computer screen[/quote']

 

You know Jacko, you might find this funny but I find it very ironic. Tonight the wife and I come home from a nice afternoon together and guess what? I check my messages and my urologiist wants me to make an appointment for my yearly digital next month. I really got to hand it to you; you are very good timing. BTW, what kind of doctor are you?:):)

[seabeachfred]

 

What kind of ******** is that 700-----Wakefield will decide whether to pitch of not in 2012? Is that for real my friend? Hell the only place he can pitch is in Boston because he hasn't received on damn offer from anyone else. Four months plus have gone by and we haven't gotten that No. 4 starter most of us know we need, we now have no shortstop worthy of its name, Ortiz' arbitration has sucked the wind out of what ever money could have been allocated for pitching, and now we have this debacle on our hands. I've believed all along that it would come down to this and that Cherington would invite both Weakflood and Putritek to ST---and if they are allowed to show up I believe the fix will be in and they will find their way onto the ballclub.

 

This must not happen; these guys are through and if they weren't some other team would have showed some interest in them NO ONE HAS!!!!! This must not happen. Hey 700, reading that has already put a crimp in what had been a nice day.

[seabeachfred]

Cook was injured, Miller will be deployed as a reliever.

 

But here's the real problem, Wakefield will be 46 on opening day, and he has more problems than North Korea.

 

Also, for what it's worth, Wakefield's WHIP as a starter was 1.39 and his OPS against .803. That is awful.

 

Anyone starting to wonder a little if this was the plan all along? Sign a bunch of rotten and failing pitchers and then convince the naive fans and press that, hell, could Wakefield be any worse, and then bring him on in. Padilla is better than Wakefield, Cook is better than Wakefield, even Miller as bad as he is, is preferable to Wakefield. The Red Sox have to learn a lesson from the Yankees.....there is a time you have to let go and move on and s*** on this sacred cow nonsense. I repeat something I said before.....if either Tim or Jason were any good some other team would have offered the something by now. No team has. If some of the bottom feeders in baseball can't find a place for these two, the Red Sox shouldn't because in actuality there is no place for them.

 

Come on Cherington,, show some balls for a change. Schedule a night for both of them and tell them bon voyage.

[seabeachfred]

How is the pitch any different than it ever was?

 

 

 

This is circumstantial. He started the year in relief (when he was healthy) and ended the year in the rotation. Thus, he wore down when he was starting. Do you really think he's any more effective as a reliever than a starter?

 

Palodios, I usually agree with 99% of what you post but not this time. Wakefield's time is up. He is a distraction with his nonsense about "people wanting to come and watch me set the record" as he muttered last summer. How many starts did it take for him to get that 200th win last summer.....eight, nine, ten????? In the meantime we lost games that might have won. He was totally useless at the end of the season and his presence on the team deprives someone younger a chance to be on the team. He's no good any more!!!!! If he was someone would have signed him by now. The Yankees said goodbye to Williams, Posada and Brosias and Tino. We have to be able to do the same and end this damn sacred cow crap. If Wakefield wants to pitch let him talk some other team into signing him.

 

 

 

 

You're banking on some of these guys having years like they used to have a few years ago. Just three years ago, Wakefield pitched 181 innings, with a 112 ERA+, 4.13 ERA, and 1.14 WHIP. His arsenal hasn't changed.

 

 

 

 

What PR fiasco?