2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Muggah]

Ben is either the GM or he is not. What you are implying is he is the monkey and Larry Lucchino is the organ grinder. What is unmistakeable is he is the front office's point man. So he gets the credit and or the blame.

 

Whoever traded Scuturo with the intent of getting a pitcher and then doesn't get the pitcher looks like the boob. Whether it's Ben or Larry pick em.

 

I don't know Ben Cherrington but I judge behavior. So my conclusions are based on his behavior. He behaves like an indecisive individual. If and when events prove him otherwise I will change my opinion based on measureable outcomes and results. So far the results are inconclusive but trending downward. If they trend upward hooray for Ben.

 

 

Plus, don't forget too, Elk, that we've been down this road before with Ben. Whether people like it or not there's a history here dating back to Oct. of 05 when Ben and Hoyer were dubbed 'Co- GMs' by Larry after Blunder took a powder. And in that case, both Ben and Hoyer were by definition 'two monkeys' working for Larry the Organ-grinder. They were props, nothing more. People need to remember this before they go anointing him 'his own man,' as it were.

[a700hitter]

Plus' date=' don't forget too, Elk, that we've been down this road before with Ben. Whether people like it or not there's a history here dating back to Oct. of 05 when Ben and Hoyer were dubbed 'Asst. GMs' by Larry after Blunder took a powder. And in that case, both Ben and Hoyer were by definition 'two monkeys' working for Larry the Organ-grinder. They were props, nothing more. People need to remember this before they go anointing him 'his own man,' as it were.[/quote']I was at the Baseball Writers Dinner that year when we had the twin GMs and Theo was on hiatus. The general feeling that i got was that neither of them commanded much respect.

[jopete19]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/red-sox-sign-john-maine.html

 

Red Sox sign John Maine... Any thoughts on this one???

[Elktonnick]

Plus' date=' don't forget too, Elk, that we've been down this road before with Ben. Whether people like it or not there's a history here dating back to Oct. of 05 when Ben and Hoyer were dubbed 'Asst. GMs' by Larry after Blunder took a powder. And in that case, both Ben and Hoyer were by definition 'two monkeys' working for Larry the Organ-grinder. They were props, nothing more. People need to remember this before they go anointing him 'his own man,' as it were.[/quote']

 

I haven't. BTW those who defend Ben by saying it is Larry's fault or Larry made him do it etc. it really doesn't matter whether it's Larry, Ben, Tom or John they are all the Red Sox front office like .700 said. Thus whoever made the decision to trade Scuturo with the intent to obtain a starting pitcher and then doesn't obtain a starting pitcher made a bonehead play. Money and budget isn't really relevant. It putting the cart before the horse.

[Station 13]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/red-sox-sign-john-maine.html

 

Red Sox sign John Maine... Any thoughts on this one???

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/avatars/5936.gif?dateline=1322798741

[iortiz]

[jung]

I tend to agree with the comment that BC appears indecisive. However that is one piece of evidence among many that he does not have the authority normally attributed to GM's. How can he appear decisive if he has to wait for the almighty LL to burp out a decision?

 

I do think they will end up with a pitcher. Maybe we need to remember that at the end of day they are looking for somebody down in the 4 or 5 hole. They are not looking for God to come down to Fenway Park with a baseball glove and a fastball. I suspect they will end up with somebody that can fit into that 4 or 5 hole but I would not even expect somebody that we might perceive as a 3.5 SP. At this point I would not be surprised if we did not end up with a 5.5. Hope to not confuse the issue but I am just using these numbers to try to explain.

[jopete19]

I tend to agree with the comment that BC appears indecisive. However that is one piece of evidence among many that he does not have the authority normally attributed to GM's. How can he appear decisive if he has to wait for the almighty LL to burp out a decision?

 

I do think they will end up with a pitcher. Maybe we need to remember that at the end of day they are looking for somebody down in the 4 or 5 hole. They are not looking for God to come down to Fenway Park with a baseball glove and a fastball. I suspect they will end up with somebody that can fit into that 4 or 5 hole but I would not even expect somebody that we might perceive as a 3.5 SP. At this point I would not be surprised if we did not end up with a 5.5. Hope to not confuse the issue but I am just using these numbers to try to explain.

 

Look at the post above... John Maine...

[iortiz]

If this guy is not Oswalt/Jackson/Floyd, who is in your radar jung?

[jopete19]

I am NOT impressed by this signing of Maine. His numbers are horrible. His best year was 2006 going 6-5 with a 3.60 ERA.

[jung]

I might try to just stay in the FA bunch and toss somebody out there from that bunch that we have not been talking about. Once you get down especially to the 5 hole (which has been mentioned in the press as the real spot the Sox are going to fill) you could have guys coming off injury, guys that have been rehabing for awhile, guys taking their last shot at success in the bigs, guys taking their first shots out of the minors...there are a ton of folks that might fit that bill, many more than I can keep track of for sure. I will look at the remaining FA and see what I can see from that and then maybe look farther past that.

 

The point is that we on this board have been pretty focused on two....maybe three guys and I suspect that from the Sox perspective the pool of candidates is far wider than that. That is not to say that if they don't land one of those three guys, we aren't likely to huff and snort and threaten to blow Fenway down.

[Bellhorn04]

Read the thread!

 

Typical non-responsive answer. I think a smart customer is not being deceived by anything that's going on here. All that matters is the team that's on the field on opening day.

[Elktonnick]

Typical non-responsive answer. I think a smart customer is not being deceived by anything that's going on here. All that matters is the team that's on the field on opening day.

 

I am not going to recap a three hour discussion because you are too lazy to read the train of thought and take something out of context of the conversation which lead up to the comment. You butt into a discussion expect that kind of answer.

[a700hitter]

John Maine in his best days was not very good. The last that I saw of him he was throwing around 84 MPH and insisting that he felt healthy for the Mets. The guy fits in with the rest of the "cesspool of negative (as coined by VA) that is our pitching depth.

[jung]

OK so Maine as an example:

 

I am not impressed with Maine either. But suppose their plan is to bring in a bunch of guys that are all risks of the sort that I mentioned above and combine them with guys that are already in the Sox system in an effort to flesh out a 5 from that bunch.

 

Could we really argue with BC if at the end of the day he said something like "we made what we thought were reasonable offers for guys in this years FA market all the while building a stockpile of arms that we intend having compete for those spots at the bottom of the rotation and in the pen. They already have Aceves and Bard and while we are leery of them starting the season with both of those guys at the bottom of the rotation, again if those guys win out for those positions and all these other guys end up in the pen or in the minors, the Sox might have a reasonable argument that this is what they want to do this year and that there is a reasonable expectation that they will succeed.

 

Now the monkey wrench in all of this is that the Sox are never going to admit that offering Arb to Ortiz was something of a mistake that tied their hands in a sense, presuming an unwillingness to open the purse strings wider than they are. However, if they do end up with enough pitching doing it this way AND keeping Ortiz bat in the iine-up for one more year, even I will end up having to eat my words about Ortiz arbitration.

[Elktonnick]

John Maine in his best days was not very good. The last that I saw of him he was throwing around 84 MPH and insisting that he felt healthy for the Mets. The guy fits in with the rest of the "cesspool of negative (as coined by VA) that is our pitching depth.

 

It is what it is! But hey it isn't Ben's fault, Larry made him do it!

[a700hitter]

OK so Maine as an example:

 

I am not impressed with Maine either. But suppose their plan is to bring in a bunch of guys that are all risks of the sort that I mentioned above and combine them with guys that are already in the Sox system in an effort to flesh out a 5 from that bunch.

 

Could we really argue with BC if at the end of the day he said something like "we made what we thought were reasonable offers for guys in this years FA market all the while building a stockpile of arms that we intend having compete for those spots at the bottom of the rotation and in the pen. They already have Aceves and Bard and while we are leery of them starting the season with both of those guys at the bottom of the rotation, again if those guys win out for those positions and all these other guys end up in the pen or in the minors, the Sox might have a reasonable argument that this is what they want to do this year and that there is a reasonable expectation that they will succeed.

 

Now the monkey wrench in all of this is that the Sox are never going to admit that offering Arb to Ortiz was something of a mistake that tied their hands in a sense, presuming an unwillingness to open the purse strings wider than they are. However, if they do end up with enough pitching doing it this way AND keeping Ortiz bat in the iine-up for one more year, even I will end up having to eat my words about Ortiz arbitration.

$5 million is not a reasonable offer for Oswalt. Looking at the steaming pile of depth arms that have been accumulated, I am quite confident that no #5 is being squeezed out of that group. Padilla might give us 4 good starts before he needs to be re-admitted to the asylum, but that is it.

[mvp 78]

$5 million is not a reasonable offer for Oswalt. Looking at the steaming pile of depth arms that have been accumulated' date=' I am quite confident that no #5 is being squeezed out of that group. Padilla might give us 4 good starts before he needs to be re-admitted to the asylum, but that is it.[/quote']

 

Won't even get 4 innings is my guess.

[jung]

$5 million is not a reasonable offer for Oswalt.

But the reports are that multiple teams are offering Oswalt the same money. Isn't there the chance that the baseball professionals across several teams know something about Oswalt or fear something about Oswalt that we are not taking into consideration?

[a700hitter]

Won't even get 4 innings is my guess.

When my criticism starts to become an optimisic spin on the facts, I get truly worried.

[Bellhorn04]

I am not going to recap a three hour discussion because you are too lazy to read the train of thought and take something out of context of the conversation which lead up to the comment. You butt into a discussion expect that kind of answer.

 

Please. I've read the foregoing comments several times now. I asked a very simple question and you had no answer for it. That 'read the thread!' nonsense is habitual behavior for you.

 

And I thought you must be joking when you said no business can be successful by misleading their customers.

[a700hitter]

Oswalt is Boston's "No. 1 target," reports Gordon Edes of ESPN Boston, and if Oswalt signs elsewhere, the Red Sox will then explore a trade for White Sox right-hander Gavin Floyd.* Jackson would be "a long-shot option" to sign

[jung]

Oswalt is Boston's "No. 1 target," reports Gordon Edes of ESPN Boston, and if Oswalt signs elsewhere, the Red Sox will then explore a trade for White Sox right-hander Gavin Floyd.* Jackson would be "a long-shot option" to sign

 

So given the above what are we to conclude if the Sox do not increase the reported $5M offer? Are we to conclude that in spite of what has been reported Oswalt is not their #1 target or are we to conclude that they know and fear something about Oswalt that prevents them from offering him more?

[a700hitter]

So given the above what are we to conclude if the Sox do not increase the reported $5M offer? Are we to conclude that in spite of what has been reported Oswalt is not their #1 target or are we to conclude that they know and fear something about Oswalt that prevents them from offering him more?

At this point, I don't know what conclusion can be drawn.

[iortiz]

Red Sox Notes: Edwin Jackson, Conor Jackson, Payroll

By Mark Polishuk [January 27 at 5:20pm CST]

Some news items out of Fenway Park...

 

The Red Sox weren't close to a deal with Edwin Jackson as of late Thursday evening, tweets Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe.* It was reported two days ago that the Sox had offered contracts to both Jackson and Roy Oswalt.

Oswalt is Boston's "No. 1 target," reports Gordon Edes of ESPN Boston, and if Oswalt signs elsewhere, the Red Sox will then explore a trade for White Sox right-hander Gavin Floyd.* Jackson would be "a long-shot option" to sign.

Manager Bobby Valentine is satisfied with his current rotation and admits another starting pitcher is "not at the top of my wish list," reports Joe McDonald of ESPN Boston.

"Free agency is not fun these days," Conor Jackson tells WEEI.com's Rob Bradford.* "Obviously at the end of the day you have to be a realist. That’s the big thing. I just want people to be honest with me where I stand with them. I understand nothing is going to be handed to me. I’ve had a couple of bad years so I have to prove I can play everyday again.”* Jackson is looking to find a backup spot and doesn't think it will be in Boston since the Red Sox now have Cody Ross in the fold.

The Red Sox are already projected to pass the luxury tax threshold, reports WEEI.com's Alex Speier as part of his breakdown of the club's 2012 payroll and what the Sox hope to gain by sticking to their budget.

[iortiz]

Manager Bobby Valentine is satisfied with his current rotation and admits another starting pitcher is "not at the top of my wish list," reports Joe McDonald of ESPN Boston.

 

Really?

[jung]

At this point, I don't know what conclusion can be drawn.

 

Well I will say this 700, based on what I know (which may be a far cry from what baseball professionals know) I would tend to agree with you that $5M is not a reasonable offer for Oswalt. If there are no extenuating circumstances that are preventing the Sox from offering him more then I would say the offers the Sox have made to Oswalt amount to a smoke screen as opposed to being a genuine effort to sign the player. Sure the Sox could be just taking a shot that gives them a very slim chance at signing him but that is not what I would consider a genuine effort to sign the player. Heck I can go buy a lottery ticket as well but buying a lottery ticket does not amount to a genuine effort to generate revenue. It is a shot, a gamble with a slim chance of paying off.

[Elktonnick]

Please. I've read the foregoing comments several times now. I asked a very simple question and you had no answer for it. That 'read the thread!' nonsense is habitual behavior for you.

 

And I thought you must be joking when you said no business can be successful by misleading their customers.

 

It is really quite annoying because you are beng lazy by reading something out of context

 

It is quite boring to have to repeat something that was in response to someone else who clearly understood the comment . But to humor you I'll repeat

I was making a general comment in resposnse to an earlier post which said it was a FO job to decieve fans ( I am paraphrasing}. Clearly I disagree.

 

I am not jjoking when I said that no business is successful by misleading it's customers ' That was in resposnse to that above post. This resulting in the following post:

 

Right, revealing all of your cards is a horrible business move.

 

To which I replied Deceiving your customers is (Meaning it is a horrible move)

 

Now I've explained myself. Now I will ignore your posts in the future because you find my posts such nonsense. Maybe you should do the same with mine so peace can reign .

[example1]

So given the above what are we to conclude if the Sox do not increase the reported $5M offer? Are we to conclude that in spite of what has been reported Oswalt is not their #1 target or are we to conclude that they know and fear something about Oswalt that prevents them from offering him more?

 

I think you can conclude either that there are unlisted incentives, they have serious concerns about his durability, or he is seeking a multi year deal someplace.

[jung]

I think you can conclude either that there are unlisted incentives, they have serious concerns about his durability, or he is seeking a multi year deal someplace.

 

I offered the opinion that the Sox are offering an incentive laden deal quite a long time ago. Presuming that to be true that appears to be going over like 10 lbs of s*** in a 2 lb bag.

 

To me "serious concerns about his durability" falls into the category of "things baseball professionals know or fear about Oswalt that we are not taking into consideration" on this board.

 

Seeking a multiyear deal elsewhere would then have to be a fall back position and a redirection for him because it was Oswalt himself that began promoting himself as available for a 1 year deal. That appeared to be an effort to draw some interest because I guess he could not get anybody to offer him a multiyear deal. So I am sure he would prefer one but Oswalt himself seems to have ruled out the possibility weeks ago.

 

So I think items 1 and 2 are likely to be accurate appraisals with item 3 being less likely....sort of Oswalt's version of a hope as opposed to a genuine possibility.

 

So he can't get teams to offer him multiyears and can't get teams to offer him what he thinks he is worth for 1 year. Sounds more and more to me that those "fears about durability" or something else we have undervalued on this board are actually really quite meaningful to the people that have to decide to pay him or not.

 

So that brings me back to where I was last night or early this morning. If Oswalt is going to be signed by somebody for less money than he would like on a 1 year deal, I suspect that there is very little likelihood that he ends up with some team in the AL East. Ergo, a team in the AL East that wants to make a genuine effort to sign him has to be willing to offer him more than teams in other divisions are offering to him. So far at least the Sox don't look like they are that team. They can make noise or the press can make noise about Oswalt being their number 1 target till hell freezes over. They don't appear to be putting their money where their mouth is.