2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[User Name]

It's only s***** because we're not signing enough contract-year stiffs. The GM is slacking.

 

I mean duh.

 

This applies for both the Red Sox and the Cubs by the way.

[a700hitter]

It's only s***** because we're not signing enough contract-year stiffs. The GM is slacking.

 

I mean duh.

I am curious though. You have read the thread. Who are all these big money stiffs that the old guys want to sign? As far as I can see, everyone just wants one more starter. What do you realistically expect from Bard and Aceves in starting roles, and don't you think that pulling them both out of the bull pen leaves a big hole in the pen?

[ORS]

Hard to debate someone who denies the facts.

It's even harder when someone confuses "fact" with "opinion".

 

Your supporting evidence is pretty much all opinion. Bleacherreport - opinion. State of the Bullpen (given all the changes in personnel) - opinion. State of the Pitching Staff (again, given all the changes in personnel) - opinion.

[Bellhorn04]

I am curious though. You have read the thread. Who are all these big money stiffs that the old guys want to sign? As far as I can see' date=' everyone just wants one more starter. What do you realistically expect from Bard and Aceves in starting roles, and don't you think that pulling them both out of the bull pen leaves a big hole in the pen?[/quote']

 

It would be a shocker to me if BOTH Bard and Aceves end up in the rotation. But if they do it probably means they're pitching well. Then Ben might have to scramble for another bullpen arm or two.

 

But if Bard and Aceves do well as starters I think that's a very good thing for the team over the next few years.

[ForeverYoung]

I am curious though. You have read the thread. Who are all these big money stiffs that the old guys want to sign? As far as I can see' date=' everyone just wants one more starter. What do you realistically expect from Bard and Aceves in starting roles, and don't you think that pulling them both out of the bull pen leaves a big hole in the pen?[/quote']

 

I completely agree, everyone is looking for a starting pitcher right now. We are lucky in the fact we are looking for a number 4 and 5, we could be the Yankees looking for a descent #2 or 3.

 

I really think Aceves was the main reason we lasted as long as we did with our record and our cruddy starting rotation. I think he will fill that role of #4 in the beginning of the season, I don't think Bard has enough in stamina, and even enough pitches to make an effective starter. He will not make the starting rotation unless Bobby V buckles to fan pressure and does something stupid like putting Bard in the rotation. If Bard goes in the rotation he has a crappy year, and fans than start calling for us to trade him at the end of the year. Which of course Lucciano will do, because baseball is a popularity contest to him and he has no clue what he is doing. He will than be an amazing closer for someone in exchange for 2 AA prospect that will never pan out.

 

Silva or Miller will bounce back this year and claim the number 5 spot in our rotation, and will cauterize the wound leaking runs that is our starting pitching. We than make a move for a major arm in 2013 and move Aceves back into the Bullpen, and all our pitching woes are than solved.

[a700hitter]

It would be a shocker to me if BOTH Bard and Aceves end up in the rotation. But if they do it probably means they're pitching well. Then Ben might have to scramble for another bullpen arm or two.

 

But if Bard and Aceves do well as starters I think that's a very good thing for the team over the next few years.

Who do you think will be the other starter if only one of them ends up in the rotation?

 

Edit: How do you expect Bard and Aceves to perform as starters?

[User Name]

I completely agree, everyone is looking for a starting pitcher right now. We are lucky in the fact we are looking for a number 4 and 5, we could be the Yankees looking for a descent #2 or 3.

 

I really think Aceves was the main reason we lasted as long as we did with our record and our cruddy starting rotation. I think he will fill that role of #4 in the beginning of the season, I don't think Bard has enough in stamina, and even enough pitches to make an effective starter. He will not make the starting rotation unless Bobby V buckles to fan pressure and does something stupid like putting Bard in the rotation. If Bard goes in the rotation he has a crappy year, and fans than start calling for us to trade him at the end of the year. Which of course Lucciano will do, because baseball is a popularity contest to him and he has no clue what he is doing. He will than be an amazing closer for someone in exchange for 2 AA prospect that will never pan out.

 

Silva or Miller will bounce back this year and claim the number 5 spot in our rotation, and will cauterize the wound leaking runs that is our starting pitching. We than make a move for a major arm in 2013 and move Aceves back into the Bullpen, and all our pitching woes are than solved.

 

Bard's pitch selection is not the problem. His control is the problem.

 

What if he has a great spring and shows glimpses that he could be good on the role? Will it be "buckling to fan pressure" if Valentine inserts him into the rotation?

 

None of us knows how Bard will respond to being tried in the rotation, and closing down the possibility would be foolish.

[a700hitter]

I completely agree, everyone is looking for a starting pitcher right now. We are lucky in the fact we are looking for a number 4 and 5, we could be the Yankees looking for a descent #2 or 3.

 

I really think Aceves was the main reason we lasted as long as we did with our record and our cruddy starting rotation. I think he will fill that role of #4 in the beginning of the season, I don't think Bard has enough in stamina, and even enough pitches to make an effective starter. He will not make the starting rotation unless Bobby V buckles to fan pressure and does something stupid like putting Bard in the rotation. If Bard goes in the rotation he has a crappy year, and fans than start calling for us to trade him at the end of the year. Which of course Lucciano will do, because baseball is a popularity contest to him and he has no clue what he is doing. He will than be an amazing closer for someone in exchange for 2 AA prospect that will never pan out.

 

Silva or Miller will bounce back this year and claim the number 5 spot in our rotation, and will cauterize the wound leaking runs that is our starting pitching. We than make a move for a major arm in 2013 and move Aceves back into the Bullpen, and all our pitching woes are than solved.

Why would you think the pressure to make Bard a starter is coming from the fans? I don't think that is or has been the case at all. Most fans wanted to see him as the closer. If there is pressure for Bard to start, it is coming from Bard. Do you really think Silva or Miller are dependable rotation guys? I view them more as depth guys. If they are in the rotation, who are the depth starters?

[FredLynn]

It's even harder when someone confuses "fact" with "opinion".

 

Your supporting evidence is pretty much all opinion. Bleacherreport - opinion. State of the Bullpen (given all the changes in personnel) - opinion. State of the Pitching Staff (again, given all the changes in personnel) - opinion.

 

I have presented the facts. Period. I have also expressed my opinion, which is based on the facts I presented. Do I really need to state the facts again? Facts like we finished NINTH in ERA in the AL last year and that even if Bard is successful as a SP (not a given), he isn't going to throw 200 innings. There are more. Shall I review them.............again?

[User Name]

Fact: Your opinion is not fact.

[FredLynn]

Fact: Your opinion is not fact.

 

I thought you were taking a break from the board. Is it over already?

[User Name]

Fact: Your opinion is not fact.

[FredLynn]

Congratulations! You finally learned your sixth word in English!

[User Name]

Oh, i thought we weren't supposed to get personal here. So much for that. Well not much more could be expected from you, honestly.

[FredLynn]

Oh' date=' i thought we weren't supposed to get personal here. So much for that. Well not much more could be expected from you, honestly.[/quote']

 

Really. How exactly did you expect me to respond to this, written by you on page 315 here:

 

Here's the thing: You are a grade-A *******. You think that all of the negative ******** you spew is the complete and absolute truth, and you combine yourself with the rest of your crew to create a shitstorm of negative ******** that turns this board damn near unreadable.

 

I think you owe me an apology...if you are man enough to realize that you are wrong to have written it.

[User Name]

Sure, as soon as you apologize for berating me over and over for being optimistic about the Red Sox. I wrote it in a previous post: I call a spade a spade.

 

Anyways, some quotes from Theo Epstein regarding the Red Sox:

 

•Epstein said he and current Red Sox GM Ben Cherington discussed the possibility of Epstein's departure for years. To put last year's off-field issues in context, he said there were periods that were "just as unproductive and contentious" in 2004.

 

•"You can get in trouble sometimes giving huge four-year deals to closers," Epstein said, after acknowledging that Jonathan Papelbon will be missed in Boston. Andrew Bailey and Mark Melancon should help Boston's bullpen recover from the loss of Papelbon, Epstein said.

 

•Carl Crawford didn't let his athleticism translate into performance during his first year in Boston, but Epstein expects better results in 2012 and beyond. Red Sox owner John Henry wasn't a proponent of the Crawford deal, but Epstein wanted to sign the speedy left fielder.

 

•Epstein says the Red Sox should obtain compensation for his departure, but he cited Andy MacPhail's move to the Cubs in 1994 and cautioned that historical precedent suggests the Red Sox shouldn't obtain much from Chicago.

[ForeverYoung]

Bard's pitch selection is not the problem. His control is the problem.

 

What if he has a great spring and shows glimpses that he could be good on the role? Will it be "buckling to fan pressure" if Valentine inserts him into the rotation?

 

None of us knows how Bard will respond to being tried in the rotation, and closing down the possibility would be foolish.

 

I never said that Bard has no chance of making the starting lineup...the potential exists. I just don't see him excelling like he excelled in the setup role.

 

Bard throws a Fastball, Slider and a Changeup. In 2009 he was throwing a Curve as well, but the vertical movement was crud so he didn't bother throwing it anymore. If I am a major league batter, I know he has a mean slider so I just sit on Fastball and destroy it. He has to face these batters more than once, so feeding them a steady diet of sliders is just not going to cut it anymore. He barely throws the Changeup, 5% according to PitchFX and 65% Fastball, 20% Slider. He will get crushed as a starting pitcher using those pitches, unless he throws something in there to slow the batter down like a curve. So if Beckett starts to be a team player and teaches Bard to throw a curve, sure he can be an effective starter but until than he is a great setup guy.

 

I think Bard is the hands-down fan favorite to make the starting rotation, well Boston fans that is. Foreign, Venezuelan and Dominican Republic fans have been screaming for Aceves ever since Papi endorsed him for that role, and placing an incomplete Bard into the starting rotation will only hurt his confidence and pitching ability. If Bard magically learns to throw a curve or even a cut-fastball in addition to his four seam than sure he can be an effective starting pitcher.

[User Name]

IBard throws a Fastball, Slider and a Changeup. In 2009 he was throwing a Curve as well, but the vertical movement was crud so he didn't bother throwing it anymore. If I am a major league batter, I know he has a mean slider so I just sit on Fastball and destroy it. He has to face these batters more than once, so feeding them a steady diet of sliders is just not going to cut it anymore. He barely throws the Changeup, 5% according to PitchFX and 65% Fastball, 20% Slider. He will get crushed as a starting pitcher using those pitches, unless he throws something in there to slow the batter down like a curve. So if Beckett starts to be a team player and teaches Bard to throw a curve, sure he can be an effective starter but until than he is a great setup guy.

 

If he's going to be a starter, he would have to show that his changeup is effective enough to get LHH out. If he can't get batters out consistently in ST, then he won't win a rotation spot. That's probably how it will work itself out.

[FredLynn]

Just pointing out, again, that you have a problem with the way you address other posters here. Its not good etiquette to label someone as a "grade-A *******" on public boards. Its not a reasonable way to conduct yourself here or anywhere else. You have had issues with 700 and with Elktonnick as well, and others, and in your exchanges with them you have embarassed yourself then as well.

I am here to discuss baseball, so I am going to leave this issue for now. I think you need to look in the mirror and decide if this is the kind of language you would recommend your kids ought to use on a public forum. I was a moderator on another board once, and people got banned for personal attacks of this nature.

Now, back to baseball.

[a700hitter]

I think Bard is the hands-down fan favorite to make the starting rotation, well Boston fans that is. Foreign, Venezuelan and Dominican Republic fans have been screaming for Aceves ever since Papi endorsed him for that role, and placing an incomplete Bard into the starting rotation will only hurt his confidence and pitching ability. If Bard magically learns to throw a curve or even a cut-fastball in addition to his four seam than sure he can be an effective starting pitcher.

Where are you getting this from?

[User Name]

Just pointing out, again, that you have a problem with the way you address other posters here. Its not good etiquette to label someone as a "grade-A *******" on public boards. Its not a reasonable way to conduct yourself here or anywhere else. You have had issues with 700 and with Elktonnick as well, and others, and in your exchanges with them you have embarassed yourself then as well.

I am here to discuss baseball, so I am going to leave this issue for now. I think you need to look in the mirror and decide if this is the kind of language you would recommend your kids ought to use on a public forum. I was a moderator on another board once, and people got banned for personal attacks of this nature.

Now, back to baseball.

 

Not other posters. Posters like you who tend to disrespect posters who disagree with your negative ideas then scream "victim". It's a really annoying and tired act.

 

"You seem to have a problem with that". Oh, and with spouting your opinion as fact too.

[FredLynn]

I never said that Bard has no chance of making the starting lineup...the potential exists. I just don't see him excelling like he excelled in the setup role.

 

Bard throws a Fastball, Slider and a Changeup. In 2009 he was throwing a Curve as well, but the vertical movement was crud so he didn't bother throwing it anymore. If I am a major league batter, I know he has a mean slider so I just sit on Fastball and destroy it. He has to face these batters more than once, so feeding them a steady diet of sliders is just not going to cut it anymore. He barely throws the Changeup, 5% according to PitchFX and 65% Fastball, 20% Slider. He will get crushed as a starting pitcher using those pitches, unless he throws something in there to slow the batter down like a curve. So if Beckett starts to be a team player and teaches Bard to throw a curve, sure he can be an effective starter but until than he is a great setup guy.

 

I think Bard is the hands-down fan favorite to make the starting rotation, well Boston fans that is. Foreign, Venezuelan and Dominican Republic fans have been screaming for Aceves ever since Papi endorsed him for that role, and placing an incomplete Bard into the starting rotation will only hurt his confidence and pitching ability. If Bard magically learns to throw a curve or even a cut-fastball in addition to his four seam than sure he can be an effective starting pitcher.

 

For the record, I would rather have Aceves in the starting rotation and leave Bard in the pen. Losing either one from the pen is going to hurt, but in that role Bard is more effective, slightly. In addition, if Aceves becomes a SP he is more likely to be able to throw more innings because he already was a SP for a few games last year. Bard would probably not toss more than 130-140 this year. Then what? Silva? Cook?

[FredLynn]

Not other posters. Posters like you who tend to disrespect posters who disagree with your negative ideas then scream "victim". It's a really annoying and tired act.

 

"You seem to have a problem with that". Oh, and with spouting your opinion as fact too.

 

I am done addressing the behavior problems you have.

But here are the FACTS I presented. Do you want to dispute them?

 

Fact: if Bard starts, he isn't in the pen. The pen is, therefore, weaker, since he was the most effective reliever last year. Another fact is that he will not be able to toss 200 innings, no matter how effective he is. He will be limited.

Fact: we finished NINTH in ERA in the AL last year.

Fact: we have not improved our pitching. We lost our closer and gained two question marks.

Fact: we finished in third place last year

[User Name]

All of those either opinion-based or irrelevant since the roster is not completed.

 

Those behavioral problems, are they "fact" or your "opinion"? The line seems to be pretty blurry for you.

[FredLynn]

All of those either opinion-based or irrelevant since the roster is not completed.

 

Those behavioral problems, are they "fact" or your "opinion"? The line seems to be pretty blurry for you.

 

Which of the facts I presented are opinions?

And all we can deal with is the way things are right now. If and when they change then a new reality will be present, and we can discuss that then. If we manage to sign Kuroda and get another good arm for the pen, then my opinion of our chances this year will change. That hasn't happened yet. It may never happen.

As Belichick says, "it is what it is"

[User Name]

How do you know the pen will necessarily be weaker? A couple of guys may step up with fluke seasons a la Ramon Ramirez and we could have the best BP in the league. Opinion.

 

How do you know the pitching has not improved? You can't predict what way the question marks will go. That is nothing but opinion.

 

And your "facts" are irrelevant to the 2012 team, given the unpredictability of personnel changes, new manager and conditioning team.

[ORS]

I have presented the facts. Period. I have also expressed my opinion' date=' which is based on the facts I presented. Do I really need to state the facts again? Facts like we finished NINTH in ERA in the AL last year and that even if Bard is successful as a SP (not a given), he isn't going to throw 200 innings. There are more. Shall I review them.............again?[/quote']

No, you called the evidence you provided from bleacherreport a fact. It isn't. You stated several facts about personnel change, and then suggested your conclusion, which is your opinion, was indisputable. It's not.

 

Given the amount of personnel change, the vairable nature of player performance from year to year, and a couple of other factors, the projected performance of the 2012 Red Sox pitching staff is very much up for debate. Facts like the final ranking of the pitching staff in ERA from 2011 are pretty much irrelevant for 2012 when you consider these factors. It's looking like 50% of the starts and over 50% of the bullpen innings will be pitched by different personnel. Yeah, the Millenium Falcon may have made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs, but it's got a new power plant now. You are comparing apples to orangutans.

 

Why would I want you to list them again when my issue isn't with what you listed, but how you classify it?

[ForeverYoung]

Why would you think the pressure to make Bard a starter is coming from the fans? I don't think that is or has been the case at all. Most fans wanted to see him as the closer. If there is pressure for Bard to start' date=' it is coming from Bard. Do you really think Silva or Miller are dependable rotation guys? I view them more as depth guys. If they are in the rotation, who are the depth starters?[/quote']

 

Andrew Miller is a perplexing pitcher, he has glimmers of greatness and than fades into the twilight. I think this is the year he figures it all out, I know I am placing a great deal of speculation on this kid but I really think the pitching coach is going to focus on him. Once Miller gets his BB/9 down he can effectively be a #4 or 5 rotation man, but that all depends on his potential to get his mechanics under control.

 

Carlos Silva knows what he is doing, he has been great and injuries have forced him to change his mechanics. In 2011 he only pitched 26 Innings in the Yankees system, and he pitched pretty effectively in those 26 innings. Ending in their AAA he was getting 3.25 K/BB, so there is definitely potential there to be great again in the starting role. I really see this guy breaking back into Majors form and doing great things this year for the Red Sox. He is still an injury risk, so look to have him filling Aceves' role in the BP unless he has a very good Spring Training. I really see this guy coming in early in the season, 2-3 months and settling into the number 4 or 5 spot in the rotation, or if Aceves is motivated to keep his role Silva ends up as long relief.

 

I honestly see us returning to the old method of using prospects as depth and giving them a chance to see some Major League batters and situations. Anthony Ranaudo, and Matt Barnes seem ready to come in and throw some pitches if there is a need. Also, we only need depth until the All-star break when we can start sending Dice-K out there to earn the last year of his damn overpriced contract.

[User Name]

Andrew Miller is a perplexing pitcher, he has glimmers of greatness and than fades into the twilight. I think this is the year he figures it all out, I know I am placing a great deal of speculation on this kid but I really think the pitching coach is going to focus on him. Once Miller gets his BB/9 down he can effectively be a #4 or 5 rotation man, but that all depends on his potential to get his mechanics under control.

 

Carlos Silva knows what he is doing, he has been great and injuries have forced him to change his mechanics. In 2011 he only pitched 26 Innings in the Yankees system, and he pitched pretty effectively in those 26 innings. Ending in their AAA he was getting 3.25 K/BB, so there is definitely potential there to be great again in the starting role. I really see this guy breaking back into Majors form and doing great things this year for the Red Sox. He is still an injury risk, so look to have him filling Aceves' role in the BP unless he has a very good Spring Training. I really see this guy coming in early in the season, 2-3 months and settling into the number 4 or 5 spot in the rotation, or if Aceves is motivated to keep his role Silva ends up as long relief.

 

I honestly see us returning to the old method of using prospects as depth and giving them a chance to see some Major League batters and situations. Anthony Ranaudo, and Matt Barnes seem ready to come in and throw some pitches if there is a need. Also, we only need depth until the All-star break when we can start sending Dice-K out there to earn the last year of his damn overpriced contract.

 

Very nice post, and interesting observations. My only point of dispute is Ranaudo, who should not sniff the Majors next year. I would replace him with Alex Wilson, who should be ready come next year, either in a BP or starting role.

[Bellhorn04]

Who do you think will be the other starter if only one of them ends up in the rotation?

 

Edit: How do you expect Bard and Aceves to perform as starters?

 

I'm not big into predicting these things, but I have a good feeling about Bard becoming a starter. Aceves I think is perfect for the role he had last year and I'd like to see him stay there.