2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jung]

Ya' gotta' figure that as these guys disappear off the board the Sox are getting a shot to put a bid in. It is no secret that they are looking for pitching and it is in the player's and the agent's best interests to give teams a shot to put in a bid. If Maholm is disappearing elsewhere then either the Sox did not want him or do not like his asking price and that's that.

[iortiz]

Theo gutted whatever was left of the Cubs team. He has added nothing. Unless he has a flurry of acquisitions' date=' they should be worse than last season. [/quote']

 

This reconstruction will take time if Theo decides to play moneyball. I'm not sure if a big market team like the Cubs should bet all its coins in moneyball. The true is that today I see this Cubs weaker in order to face next season.

[example1]

Can't because several are out of options. I think Bowden is one who is out. Cherry is looking to trade those because this limits their ability to be called up.

 

Just to be clear, the new signings have been to minor league deals. Bowden doesn't have options. That means if they want to put him in the minors he has to be DFA'd, so someone else could pick him up for their MLB club. If he is as worthless as most think then nobody will pick him up and he can be placed at AAA. More likely another team will put him in their pen and give him a shot. None of this needs to happen before spring training so it's really a nonissue. He's on the 40 man roster... Big deal.

[example1]

This reconstruction will take time if Theo decides to play moneyball. I'm not sure if a big market team like the Cubs should bet all its coins in moneyball. The true is that today I see the Cubs weaker in order to face next season.

 

What does "moneyball" even mean in this context?

 

The Cubs were a marginal team at best by any measure. Trading their best pieces for more than their value in young talent (who also happen to cost less) is a complete no-brainer.

 

It doesn't involve OBP or really even undervalued assets.

 

Is moneyball the new term for rebuilding with young talent suddenly? If so I'm afraid people have missed the point of the book and the many manifestations of that philosophy since.

[iortiz]

What does "moneyball" even mean in this context?

 

The Cubs were a marginal team at best by any measure. Trading their best pieces for more than their value in young talent (who also happen to cost less) is a complete no-brainer.

 

It doesn't involve OBP or really even undervalued assets.

 

Is moneyball the new term for rebuilding with young talent suddenly? If so I'm afraid people have missed the point of the book and the many manifestations of that philosophy since.

 

Put it in whatever philosophy you want. Cubs short/mid-term-future is not encouraging at all. Of course thus far.

[example1]

Put it in the philosophy you want. Cubs short/mid-term-future is not encouraging at all. Of course thus far.

 

I'm not arguing that it is promising. I'm arguing that by just about any definition what the cubs or red sox did was moneyball only insofar as they were in the business of trying to identify and then capitalize on undervalued assets. That combined with deep pockets is what they do in Boston and will undoubtedly do in Chicago. There is no reason the cubs shouldn't be a yearly contender when it all gets straightened out and the awful contracts for s***** players are gone.

[iortiz]

I'm not arguing that it is promising. I'm arguing that by just about any definition what the cubs or red sox did was moneyball only insofar as they were in the business of trying to identify and then capitalize on undervalued assets. That combined with deep pockets is what they do in Boston and will undoubtedly do in Chicago. There is no reason the cubs shouldn't be a yearly contender when it all gets straightened out and the awful contracts for s***** players are gone.

 

Well, we are arguing different things. I'm just saying that the current Cubs are very close to be a horrible team in order to face next season.

[Spudboy]

Garza is massively overrated by the way.

 

I agree that he is somewhat overrated. But it's that time of years when a player's value tends to be inflated by the fans who anticipate their team bolstering and fixing the team. You would agree that he is a good pitcher that would benefit our team would you not (irrespective of cost)?

[Palodios]

Theo gutted whatever was left of the Cubs team. He has added nothing. Unless he has a flurry of acquisitions' date=' they should be worse than last season. [/quote']

 

The Cubs have 28 million committed to 2013. That's it. These big contracts are expiring over the next few years, and they're going to have a ton of money to spend. Wrigley is a friggen gold mine, and imagine how much money there would be in the team if it starts winning. I would not be surprised to see Theo get two of the high end pitchers for 2013.

[redsoxfan3]

Red Sox Sign Justin Germano

 

By Mike Axisa [January 10 at 12:05am CST]

 

The Red Sox have signed Justin Germano, reports Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com (on Twitter). The 29-year-old righty finished last season in Korea, and Heyman says he turned down more than $1MM overseas for a chance to make the Sox.

 

Germano allowed eight runs in 12 2/3 innings for the Guardians last season before joining the Samsung Lions. He owns a 5.02 ERA in 253 career innings for the Tribe, Reds, and Padres. He also spent time in Japan earlier in his career. The Red Sox recently added Aaron Cook as well, as they look to build some pitching depth.

 

Not sure if this was posted yet, but the source is MLBTR. I honestly don't know much about Germano other than the stats I found on him. I don't recall watching him personally ever pitch. You can add another name to that list of cheap pitchers that are going to be competing for a spot in Spring Training. I feel like with Silva, Miller, Carlson, Cook, Haeger, and now Germano that we have too many depth guys. I think we have enough of these guys already. We have enough cheap SP, now we need to focus on signing someone who will actually be able to start in the #4 spot for us. I am not sure if we are planning on having Germano compete for the bullpen or rotation. He has done both in his career. Back in '07 he started 23 games for the Padres, finished the year with a 4.46 ERA and a 1.298 WHIP. Back in '10 he pitched 22 games for the Guardians out of the pen, finished with a 3.31 ERA and 0.991 WHIP. He obviously has played other years, but those are his two years that he had some significant time in the majors. He has been inconsistent throughout his career, with showing glimpses that he could be a decent pitcher. Not sure what his stats were like last year with the Samsung Lions. All I can say is that this is just another cheap pickup with the potential to add depth to our pen or rotation.

[redsoxfan3]

Garza and Jurrjens are still available in trades. Oswalt, Kuroda, and Jackson are all still free agents. I don't see us getting Jurrjens. A couple days ago I remember reading that we are "not in" on him. Garza and the Tigers are talking about getting Garza, so if that happens, then both Garza and Jurrjens are out of the picture. Kuroda and Jackson are probably going to cost too much. Oswalt is probably a stretch as well, unless we can somehow get him to sign a decent one year contract. I don't think the FO likes the asking price of Saunders either. Saunders or Oswalt are probably our two best options at this point. I hope that we can get one of the two. Saunders could be an innings eater for us, which I really like. I just hope we can get one of those two guys. Hopefully the FO can make it happen and spend some money on one of the two. I hope we don't have to rely on one of Carlson, Silva, Cook, Miller, or Haeger to be able to get that #4 spot in the rotation by battling it out this Spring. Please BC, think of something to get us a reliable #4.

[User Name]

This reconstruction will take time if Theo decides to play moneyball. I'm not sure if a big market team like the Cubs should bet all its coins in moneyball. The true is that today I see this Cubs weaker in order to face next season.

 

The rebuilding period of the Cubs has absolutely nothing to do with a Moneyball approach. And the fact that they will not compete in the short term should be expected. That is the very definition of rebuilding: Sacrificing the short term and focusing on the long term future of a team by blowing up the current core.

[User Name]

I agree that he is somewhat overrated. But it's that time of years when a player's value tends to be inflated by the fans who anticipate their team bolstering and fixing the team. You would agree that he is a good pitcher that would benefit our team would you not (irrespective of cost)?

 

First off, basically any ML player is a good addition if you don't factor cost into the equation.

 

Second, Garza's character has come into question several times this offseason. I remember reading the rumors since 2008 that Garza has trouble handling the bright lights (that game 7 against Boston nonwithstanding) and that's supposedly the main reason the Yankees backed off from the guy. I'm not sure he would be able to succeed in Boston, but of course, that's just my opinion.

[a700hitter]

Just to be clear' date=' the new signings have been to minor league deals. Bowden doesn't have options. That means if they want to put him in the minors he has to be DFA'd, so someone else could pick him up for their MLB club. If he is as worthless as most think then nobody will pick him up and he can be placed at AAA. More likely another team will put him in their pen and give him a shot. None of this needs to happen before spring training so it's really a nonissue. He's on the 40 man roster... Big deal.[/quote']No one said it was a big deal. Those are your words. Some people have suggested that since Bowden is out of options he should stick in the ML pen rather than risk losing him. I disagree with that. He should be sent down. If we lose him, no big deal. It's 50-50 whether someone picks him up.

[jacksonianmarch]

First off, basically any ML player is a good addition if you don't factor cost into the equation.

 

Second, Garza's character has come into question several times this offseason. I remember reading the rumors since 2008 that Garza has trouble handling the bright lights (that game 7 against Boston nonwithstanding) and that's supposedly the main reason the Yankees backed off from the guy. I'm not sure he would be able to succeed in Boston, but of course, that's just my opinion.

 

I think you might be mistaken. He has been better in the playoffs than he has in his regular season history.

 

5 starts 2-1 3.48ERA 1.29WHIP 29K in 31IP.

 

The Yankees backed off because Theo wanted Montero and Banuelos.

[a700hitter]

I'm not arguing that it is promising. I'm arguing that by just about any definition what the cubs or red sox did was moneyball only insofar as they were in the business of trying to identify and then capitalize on undervalued assets. That combined with deep pockets is what they do in Boston and will undoubtedly do in Chicago. There is no reason the cubs shouldn't be a yearly contender when it all gets straightened out and the awful contracts for s***** players are gone.

You are arguing the meaning of the term "Moneyball" which is not really relevant to iortiz's post. Whether Theo is employing a Moneyball philosophy with the Cubs or not, it looks pretty likely that the Cubs will be playing Shitball on the field next season.

[User Name]

I think you might be mistaken. He has been better in the playoffs than he has in his regular season history.

 

5 starts 2-1 3.48ERA 1.29WHIP 29K in 31IP.

 

The Yankees backed off because Theo wanted Montero and Banuelos.

 

Cubs execs Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer are alarmed by the lack of minor league talent in their own system, so trading Garza might appeal to them. The Yankees, one possible suitor for the right-hander, have had concerns about Garza’s ability to handle New York in the past.

 

This is what i mean. Not handle the playoffs, but handle a big city like Boston. Kinda like Greinke, but with a lot less crazy.

[a700hitter]

The Cubs have 28 million committed to 2013. That's it. These big contracts are expiring over the next few years' date=' and they're going to have a ton of money to spend. Wrigley is a friggen gold mine, and imagine how much money there would be in the team if it starts winning. I would not be surprised to see Theo get two of the high end pitchers for 2013.[/quote']Their 2013 roster is a long way off. Their 2012 roster is shaping up to be a dull disaster.

[jacksonianmarch]

I see. It doesnt make any sense, he's playing in one of the biggest markets in America, and he thrived

[User Name]

I see. It doesnt make any sense' date=' he's playing in one of the biggest markets in America, and he thrived[/quote']

 

However, they suck. And Cubs fans and media aren't nearly (IMO) as demanding and absorbing as NY and Boston media. And he does have some anxiety issues.

[a700hitter]

Justin Germano? I guess Benny Boy is intent on stocking up the pig pen before he turns his attention to the rotation and the bullpen.

[example1]

You are arguing the meaning of the term "Moneyball" which is not really relevant to iortiz's post. Whether Theo is employing a Moneyball philosophy with the Cubs or not' date=' it looks pretty likely that the Cubs will be playing Shitball on the field next season.[/quote']

 

a700 to the rescue again. He specifically mentioned moneyball and I responded that it probably doesnt apply. It has nothing to do with you. IOrtiz is a big boy, he can (and does) state his view just fine and can handle a back and forth with me about his use of the term.

 

People use moneyball as a catchall phrase to capture moves that certain baseball execs do, and it is bad form because it often misses the point of the approach. I don't expect you to care or find it relevant. I wasn't talking to you in the first place.

[a700hitter]

a700 to the rescue again. He specifically mentioned moneyball and I responded that it probably doesnt apply. It has nothing to do with you. IOrtiz is a big boy, he can (and does) state his view just fine and can handle a back and forth with me about his use of the term.

 

People use moneyball as a catchall phrase to capture moves that certain baseball execs do, and it is bad form because it often misses the point of the approach. I don't expect you to care or find it relevant. I wasn't talking to you in the first place.

No need to get snotty. I am just pointing out that you were missing the focus of his post and arguing a tangential point. You frequently do that when responding to my posts. I'm not arguing with you, just pointing out that MoneyBall isn't the issue.

 

Let me get the ground rules straight on this discussion board. Am I not allow to agree with or elaborate on another poster's position? If not, that must be a new rule, because I am frequently defending my positions against numerous posters-- almost all the time. You are correct in noting that iortiz is capable of arguing any issue on his own. Heck, he could win most arguments against multiple posters with half his brain tied behind his back just to make it fair. He reminds me of myself in that regard.

[FredLynn]

Not sure if this was posted yet' date=' but the source is MLBTR. I honestly don't know much about Germano other than the stats I found on him. I don't recall watching him personally ever pitch. You can add another name to that list of cheap pitchers that are going to be competing for a spot in Spring Training. I feel like with Silva, Miller, Carlson, Cook, Haeger, and now Germano that we have too many depth guys. I think we have enough of these guys already. We have enough cheap SP, now we need to focus on signing someone who will actually be able to start in the #4 spot for us. I am not sure if we are planning on having Germano compete for the bullpen or rotation. He has done both in his career. Back in '07 he started 23 games for the Padres, finished the year with a 4.46 ERA and a 1.298 WHIP. Back in '10 he pitched 22 games for the Guardians out of the pen, finished with a 3.31 ERA and 0.991 WHIP. He obviously has played other years, but those are his two years that he had some significant time in the majors. He has been inconsistent throughout his career, with showing glimpses that he could be a decent pitcher. Not sure what his stats were like last year with the Samsung Lions. All I can say is that this is just another cheap pickup with the potential to add depth to our pen or rotation.[/quote']

 

I can certainly sleep better at night knowing that the Red Sox continue to sign turds like Silva, Miller, Cook, and now Germano. Cherington continues to sling pieces of s*** at the wall to see if any of them stick there.

All they will do is further stain that wall.

Really. Why bother?

[FredLynn]

Garza and Jurrjens are still available in trades. Oswalt' date=' Kuroda, and Jackson are all still free agents. I don't see us getting Jurrjens. A couple days ago I remember reading that we are "not in" on him. Garza and the Tigers are talking about getting Garza, so if that happens, then both Garza and Jurrjens are out of the picture. Kuroda and Jackson are probably going to cost too much. Oswalt is probably a stretch as well, unless we can somehow get him to sign a decent one year contract. I don't think the FO likes the asking price of Saunders either. Saunders or Oswalt are probably our two best options at this point. I hope that we can get one of the two. Saunders could be an innings eater for us, which I really like. I just hope we can get one of those two guys. Hopefully the FO can make it happen and spend some money on one of the two. I hope we don't have to rely on one of Carlson, Silva, Cook, Miller, or Haeger to be able to get that #4 spot in the rotation by battling it out this Spring. [b']Please BC, think of something to get us a reliable #4[/b].

 

Not happening. No money.

[ORS]

How is the use of the term "moneyball" not relevant when it was central to the point he made in his original post? Yes, he has subsequently modified his position to make the term "moneyball" irrelevant. He had to, his original point fell flat on its face through misuse of the term.

 

Here's the quote...

 

This reconstruction will take time if Theo decides to play moneyball. I'm not sure if a big market team like the Cubs should bet all its coins in moneyball. The true is that today I see this Cubs weaker in order to face next season.

 

He was adding on to a700's point that the Cubs will be a weaker team next year by further stating that he forecasts this weakness into subsequent years because of "moneyball". His misuse of the term is very relevant to the discussion he initiated (how the Cubs rebuilding process will go).

 

As far as how good (well actually, how bad) the Cubs will be next year, what's so interesting about that? They are clearly just now starting a rebuilding process. They should be bad. It's like discussing the finer points of how wet water is.

[Elktonnick]

No one said it was a big deal. Those are your words. Some people have suggested that since Bowden is out of options he should stick in the ML pen rather than risk losing him. I disagree with that. He should be sent down. If we lose him' date=' no big deal. It's 50-50 whether someone picks him up.[/quote']

 

I think Cherry thinks it's a big deal because the reporting on WEEI was he was looking to trade a number of these guys including Bowden because he was out of options.

 

While I don't think much of Bowden (He has shown nothing in the bigs yet and his quirky delivery makes him a likely candidate to blow out his arm.) he is arguably a better risk than the flotsam and jetsam we are currently stockpiling in Cherry's "dollar general" pitching staff.

[User Name]

As far as how good (well actually' date=' how bad) the Cubs will be next year, what's so interesting about that? They are clearly just now starting a rebuilding process. They should be bad. It's like discussing the finer points of how wet water is.[/quote']

 

Solid logic here folks.

[Bellhorn04]

I can certainly sleep better at night knowing that the Red Sox continue to sign turds like Silva, Miller, Cook, and now Germano. Cherington continues to sling pieces of s*** at the wall to see if any of them stick there.

All they will do is further stain that wall.

Really. Why bother?

 

I thought this was in line with what you wanted to see this year: 'rebuilding' by hanging onto money and prospects since we're not going anywhere anyway.

[FredLynn]

Justin Germano? I guess Benny Boy is intent on stocking up the pig pen before he turns his attention to the rotation and the bullpen.

 

I think that Justin Germano fits right in. He sucks. But so does Bowden, Doubront, Lackey, Matsusaka, Silva, Carlson, and Cook. On the other hand, so does Jenks, Atchison, and Albers.

Germano has found a home.