2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[FredLynn]

Wouldn't you say his delivery is like Foulke's?

 

I would say that his results are nothing like Foulke's. Foulke had pinpoint control of where his pitches were going. Thats what made him successful.

[Bellhorn04]

I would say that his results are nothing like Foulke's. Foulke had pinpoint control of where his pitches were going. Thats what made him successful.

 

And I agree with you. I just don't think it's necessarily Bowden's delivery that's his problem.

[win red sox]

I don't see Ortiz getting released. The Red Sox would be opening themselves to an action by the players union. When a player is offered and accepts arbitration under the current collective bargaining agreement' date=' the player cuts off his rights to negotiate with other teams. Cutting the player after the arbitrators award would be a clear act of bad faith by the team. I'd love to represent Ortiz in that situation. He'd get a boat load of money from the Red Sox and he'd be declared a free agent.[/quote']

 

I don't see how this would lead to any grievance, it was negotiated in the cba and there's a reason it's not guaranteed.

[a700hitter]

I don't see how this would lead to any grievance' date=' it was negotiated in the cba and there's a reason it's not guaranteed.[/quote']There is a difference between a contract not being guaranteed and the team acting in bad faith. The contract is not guaranteed against non-performance due to injury or inability to perform. It doesn't give the team the right just to cut him. I am a benefits/tax lawyer. I'm not a Labor lawyer, but I know enough that allowing a team to cut players after the arbitrator's award would be an act of bad faith. It would never be upheld.

[Elktonnick]

And I agree with you. I just don't think it's necessarily Bowden's delivery that's his problem.

 

Both Foulke and Bowden show the ball too long much. Foulke got results for a while. I thought he was little quicker and didn't deliver as ereect as Bowden.

[example1]

Both Foulke and Bowden show the ball too long much. Foulke got results for a while. I thought he was little quicker and didn't deliver as ereect as Bowden.

 

Foulke broke into the majors at 24 and got knocked around. He showed up in Boston at 31.

 

Bowden is currently 24.

 

Over his past three seasons Bowden has put up about a 3.00 era at AAA. He's not a total waste yet. Particularly since he has looked much better after converting to RP. I wouldn't be shocked if he turns into a Dan Wheeler-esque long-time MLB reliever. A deceptive delivery sucks for a SP but for an RP it isn't so bad.

 

And SBF I don't know what Gammons was thinking. That is crazy and if it became the basis for your evaluation of the kid you were led-on with unfair expectations.

[Elktonnick]

Foulke broke into the majors at 24 and got knocked around. He showed up in Boston at 31.

 

Bowden is currently 24.

 

Over his past three seasons Bowden has put up about a 3.00 era at AAA. He's not a total waste yet. Particularly since he has looked much better after converting to RP. I wouldn't be shocked if he turns into a Dan Wheeler-esque long-time MLB reliever. A deceptive delivery sucks for a SP but for an RP it isn't so bad.

 

And SBF I don't know what Gammons was thinking. That is crazy and if it became the basis for your evaluation of the kid you were led-on with unfair expectations.

 

As Bill Lee said the problem with Bowden's delivery is that it isn't deceptive. He hesitates at the top of the delivery showing the ball for what seems like an eternity. That may work in AAA but the hitters are lot quicker in the show and I doubt if he'll ever be successful in the bigs. IMHO

[a700hitter]

Foulke broke into the majors at 24 and got knocked around. He showed up in Boston at 31.

 

Bowden is currently 24.

 

Over his past three seasons Bowden has put up about a 3.00 era at AAA. He's not a total waste yet. Particularly since he has looked much better after converting to RP. I wouldn't be shocked if he turns into a Dan Wheeler-esque long-time MLB reliever. A deceptive delivery sucks for a SP but for an RP it isn't so bad.

 

And SBF I don't know what Gammons was thinking. That is crazy and if it became the basis for your evaluation of the kid you were led-on with unfair expectations.

Didn't Foulke throw a little harder than Bowden early in his career?

[example1]

Didn't Foulke throw a little harder than Bowden early in his career?

 

I have no idea. Pitch F/X data doesn't exist for most of Foulke's career.

 

Throwing hard wasn't what Foulke did. Bowden throws in the low-90s currently, certainly as hard if not harder than Foulke did when he was Mr. Rolaids Relief.

[Station 13]

Bowden doesn't have an out pitch. Mediocre flat fastball. Can't throw the breaking ball. he's junk.

[a700hitter]

I have no idea. Pitch F/X data doesn't exist for most of Foulke's career.

 

Throwing hard wasn't what Foulke did. Bowden throws in the low-90s currently, certainly as hard if not harder than Foulke did when he was Mr. Rolaids Relief.

But by the time Bowden is the age Foulke was when he won the Rolaids Relief award he may not be throwing that hard any more. My recollection is that Foulke's velocity diminished throughout his career. Foulke also had a deadly change up that Bowden doesn't have.

[Spitball]

The Sox have signed Aaron Cook to a minor league deal. I'm not too excited but okay with it.

[Station 13]

The Sox have signed Aaron Cook to a minor league deal. I'm not too excited but okay with it.

 

Career 3.8K/9 LOL

 

It's interesting he never allow 20 HR in any season while pitching in Coors.

[example1]

But by the time Bowden is the age Foulke was when he won the Rolaids Relief award he may not be throwing that hard any more. My recollection is that Foulke's velocity diminished throughout his career. Foulke also had a deadly change up that Bowden doesn't have.

 

Bowden doesn't have any known arm issues.

 

[table] MINOR LEAGUE | IP | ERA | WHIP | H/9 | HR/9 | K/9|

BOWDEN | 690.1 | 3.19 | 1.155 | 7.7 | 0.8 | 8.0 |

FOULKE | 531.0 | 3.58 | 1.153 | 8.6 | 0.9 | 7.6| [/table]

 

[table] AAA | IP | ERA | WHIP | H/9 | HR/9 | K/9|

BOWDEN | 324.2 | 3.27 | 1.170 | 7.6 | 0.9 | 7.1 |

FOULKE | 92.0 | 4.99 | 1.326 | 10.1 | 1.5 | 6.8 | [/table]

 

[table] AA | IP | ERA | WHIP | H/9 | HR/9 | K/9|

BOWDEN | 201 | 3.27 | 1.164 | 7.9 | 0.6 | 8.2 |

FOULKE | 182.2 | 2.76| 1.007 | 7.3 | 0.8 | 6.4 | [/table]

 

I can't separate out the after-injury rehab innings for Foulke, or I would.

 

It is very possible that Bowden is one of those rare guys who can have genuine success at AAA and be simply incapable of getting MLB hitters out, but at age 24 I see no reason to assume that's the case.

 

He switched to RP full-time last season with good results:

[table] IP | ERA | WHIP | H/9 | HR/9 | K/9 |

52.2 | 2.73 | 1.158 | 7.3 | 0.9 | 10.4 | [/table]

 

And in his brief MLB stint last year he had 17 K in 20 IP.

 

I understand people are writing him off, but the talent is there and he deserves more than 56 IP between the ages of 21-24 to succeed in MLB. It's just my opinion, but too many people are saying his career is a failure without looking at his track record.

 

Hell, people are clamoring for the Sox to drop 10m on Ryan Madson who had a 4.37 ERA and 1.415 WHIP through his first 300 IP in the majors.

 

Heath Bell: first 71.0 IP, 4.82 ERA, 1.366 WHIP

 

Keith Foulke: first 138.2 IP, 5.32 ERA, 1.313 WHIP

 

I'm just sayin', 24 is still young enough to become a decent bullpen option.

[seabeachfred]

The lemonade would have to be warm' date=' and I wouldn't take a chance drinking it.[/quote']

 

I don't think I would take a swig on it either 700, but think about it for a second. Here is a pitcher who is rated to highly Gammons calls him the best pitching prospect in the minors OF ANY TEAM and now four plus years later we most likely couldn't give the guy away for that lemonade and maybe some chocolate chip cookies. You know, the first time I saw hi was on my computer screen at Cellular Field in the summer of 2007. He pitched and beat the White Sox in a four game Bosox sweep, but I said right then that wierd delivery of his would never make it, and you can check with my buddies Elk, Pumpsie and IPOT. They said the same thing and here we are and the guy is almost out the Red Sox door, and this is not anything personal because I have always liked Bowden. I just like the young man and find him very appealing but his personality hasn't been transferred to his pitching.

 

I wonder if User was on to something when he said that maybe we hold our pitching prospects back too long and they go stale with all the minor league work.

[seabeachfred]

Fred you know my opinion of Bowden. I never understood how anyone who saw him pitch with his delivery could have been high on him

 

Elk, I just said the same thing to 700 in my most recent post. Now I will be the first to tell anyone that I am not the pitching guru of the ages by any means, but did the Red Sox really think Michael could get away with pitching with that strange and barfy delivery? I am really surprised and a little shocked that they never tried to alter his mechanics. They are very bad. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[example1]

That's a great point SBF. Yet again, you are right and the guys paid hundres of thousands or millions to maxamize the performance of these superior athletes are wrong. Well done sir...

 

Seriously, though, here's an invterview with Bowden from some obscure Red Sox Prospects site (http://news.soxprospects.com/2011/07/q-with-michael-bowden.html) where they discuss the multiple years of tweaking with his delivery and mechanics.

 

Perhaps you should write to them and let them know that what they did didn't actually happen...

 

MH: One of your trademarks is your unique pitching motion. We’ve heard at different times that you’ve tried to clean that up or do different things with it in the offseason. Have coaches ever tried to completely change it to a more traditional motion? And do you think that sort of funky motion works to your advantage especially out of the bullpen?

 

MB: This is probably the first year I’ve actually gone into the season knowing exactly what I’m going to do with my mechanics. Every year, I’ve been working on something, trying to clean it up, trying to simplify it, just trying to see what works for me. And yeah, there’s been coaches with a lot of different suggestions, but now I’m to the point in my career where I know what I have to do, I know what feels good, and that’s what I’m going to do. So I feel very comfortable right now with my mechanics.

[example1]

I don't think I would take a swig on it either 700' date=' but think about it for a second. Here is a pitcher who is rated to highly Gammons calls him the [b']best pitching prospect in the minors OF ANY TEAM and now four plus years later [/b]we most likely couldn't give the guy away for that lemonade and maybe some chocolate chip cookies.

 

Stop with this Gammons s***. It is both irrelevant and comes from a source who doesn't know what he's talking about in that regard. Bowden was drafted with Buchholz, who was clearly better.

 

Nonetheless, Bowden was highly thought of when he was drafted. He was probably the best HS pitcher in Illinois, which isn't a small state or a small market. He had good stuff when he was drafted. He has the potential to be an MLB reliever and have a long, nice career. That's not a total bust and it isn't as bad as you are making it seem.

[seabeachfred]

Foulke broke into the majors at 24 and got knocked around. He showed up in Boston at 31.

 

Bowden is currently 24.

 

Over his past three seasons Bowden has put up about a 3.00 era at AAA. He's not a total waste yet. Particularly since he has looked much better after converting to RP. I wouldn't be shocked if he turns into a Dan Wheeler-esque long-time MLB reliever. A deceptive delivery sucks for a SP but for an RP it isn't so bad.

 

And SBF I don't know what Gammons was thinking. That is crazy and if it became the basis for your evaluation of the kid you were led-on with unfair expectations.

 

When I heard Gammons say that on Baseball Tonight back in ST 2008 I nearly did handstands. Here we were coming of a WS Title, we had some real terrific young players really standing out like Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Papelbon and Lester and I hear Gammons say something like that? To be honest, when I saw him pitch on the computer in 2007 I was taken back by his mechanics but the guy was big and looked strong. You know, though, I really would like to see this guy stick for us and do a decent job in the bullpen. There is just something about that young man that I like.

[example1]

When I heard Gammons say that on Baseball Tonight back in ST 2008 I nearly did handstands. Here we were coming of a WS Title' date=' we had some real terrific young players really standing out like Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Papelbon and Lester and I hear Gammons say something like that? To be honest, when I saw him pitch on the computer in 2007 I was taken back by his mechanics but the guy was big and looked strong. You know, though, I really would like to see this guy stick for us and do a decent job in the bullpen. There is just something about that young man that I like.[/quote']

 

I think you (or Gammons) are confusing him with Buchholz.

 

I would suggest that next time, instead of doing handstands, you should just go online and read about the players in question. Statistics, scouting reports etc., would have kept you from over reacting.

 

You would have seen that Bowden was coming off a 4.28 ERA at AA after some success in HR friendly Lancaster and would have quickly dismissed it. Not rocket science.

[User Name]

Now now boys let's calm down.

 

I will say Fred that E1 is right in regards to the Bowden issue. They have tweaked his mechanics several times throughout the years.

[example1]

Now now boys let's calm down.

 

I will say Fred that E1 is right in regards to the Bowden issue. They have tweaked his mechanics several times throughout the years.

 

Mechanics are mechanics. You can tweak things, but if it is comfortable for a guy to throw 93 with a certain motion, he's probably going to be hard pressed to switch it up. Expecting him to come out looking like a textbook pitcher would be unrealistic.

[seabeachfred]

Bowden doesn't have an out pitch. Mediocre flat fastball. Can't throw the breaking ball. he's junk.

 

Right Station 13 and if you want to know why just watch his delivery and mechanics. Now you tell me how he can get movement on his fastball and snap on his curve with a delivery like that. I would have suggested he come more three quarter and develop a good slurve from the three-quarter delivery point. For sure I would have suggested teaching him the change-up, which, by the way, was Foulke's money pitch. It was hellacious and it made his fastball seem a couple of yards faster. Sometime watch his strikeout of Tony Clark for the last out in the th game of the 2004 ALCS. Two on, two out, and on a three and two count he simply blows Clark away. He could do that because his change made his fastball seem faster than it was. Bowden doesn't seem to have any of that so what can we really expect.

 

Now I don't want to go off the deep end, but I put a lot of blame for this on former pitching coach John Farrell. First of all he should have seen that Michael needed another pitch and some realignment of his mechanics and he didn't. Then, again, I think Farrell was vastly overrated as a pitching coach so there is no surprise there.

[User Name]

Fred, according to scouting reports (and from what i've seen) the only pitch that Bowden has that could be labeled as above average is a circle-change. Both you and "The King without a crown" are incorrect in that regard.

[seabeachfred]

The Sox have signed Aaron Cook to a minor league deal. I'm not too excited but okay with it.

 

Hey Spitball, if Cook can throw like he did in the 4th game of the 2007 WS I might find some enthusiasm, but I don't think he will and that is most likely why he was available. I'm ok with it too because you never know, but I'm not about to write in for WS tickets just yet. I think we can do a lot better than Cook.

[User Name]

Hey Spitball' date=' if Cook can throw like he did in the 4th game of the 2007 WS I might find some enthusiasm, but I don't think he will and that is most likely why he was available. I'm ok with it too because you never know, but I'm not about to write in for WS tickets just yet. I think we can do a lot better than Cook.[/quote']

 

Fred, after what happened last year, it's really hard to underestimate the importance of having pitching depth.

[seabeachfred]

Good discussions today gang. I was taken to the woodshed a couple of times but that's what forums are for anyway. It is stimulating to exchange ideas and opinions and there is certainly a variety of them around here. Here's hoping we sign a pitcher this week that can win in Boston. I don't know if it will be by the FA method or a trade and if it's the latter I sure as hell hope that we are able to keep our near ready prospects like Middlebrooks, Lavarnway and Kalish. See you tomorrow.

[redsoxfan3]

Good discussions today gang. I was taken to the woodshed a couple of times but that's what forums are for anyway. It is stimulating to exchange ideas and opinions and there is certainly a variety of them around here. Here's hoping we sign a pitcher this week that can win in Boston. I don't know if it will be by the FA method or a trade and if it's the latter I sure as hell hope that we are able to keep our near ready prospects like Middlebrooks' date=' Lavarnway and Kalish. See you tomorrow.[/quote']

 

+1

Good post.

 

I am waiting for us to get that #4 starter that will be reliable for us. We just need someone that is going to be an innings eater, give us a shot to win, and get the ball every 5th day. He doesn't have to be an ace, he doesn't have to be Justin Verlander, he needs to just be reliable. I like these minor league contracts that we have given to Carlson, Silva, Haeger, and Cook. Maybe one of these guys can bounce back and be decent for us in the minors and fill-in if needed at the major league level as a depth guy. We are definitely not risking anything with these signings. BC is playing it smart and cheap at the same time this offseason. If he can keep this up and get us a reliable #4 starter, maybe a decent RH right fielder to platoon with Sweeney, and a couple more decent bullpen arms, then I will give major props to BC. So far the Melancon and Bailey trades are looking really good.

 

I am really interested to see how Aviles can do in RF this Spring. We are more than likely going to see Aviles platoon with Sweeney in RF, but I am still hoping we sign another RH bat for the outfield so that we don't have to rely on McDonald.

 

For the #4 spot in the rotation, I feel that Jackson and Kuroda are probably too expensive for us to sign. The Cubs asking price for Garza is probably too much. I am really hoping that we can sign Oswalt to a one year deal, but that also may be too expensive for the FO. It will be interesting to watch in the next month and a half.

[redsoxfan3]

In addition to my previous post in reference to the #4 starter, I forgot to mention Paul Maholm. I think he would be a good addition in that role if he can duplicate his 3.66 ERA and 1.294 WHIP from last year. I know those number might increase some because he is pitching in the AL East, but if he replicates those numbers from last year, or simlar numbers, then he could play a vital role for this team in the #4 spot. He has a career ERA of 4.36 and a career WHIP of 1.424, so that concerns me a little bit. He also only pitched 162.1 innings last year. If he could somehow increase that to 180-200, keep his ERA right around 4.00 or lower, and have a decent WHIP, then he would be a good addition to this team in the rotation. That would be a good pickup since he is cheap. I would prefer Oswalt over Maholm, but Maholm is probably more realistic. We are also keeping an eye on Saunders, who would be an innings eater for sure. He could probably also keep his ERA right around 4.00. I feel that the addition of either Saunders or Maholm could round out the rotation of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, and Bard. Like I said, I would prefer Oswalt to those two, but cheap is the way we are going, so Saunders or Maholm are probably more likely.

 

The competition this Spring could be interesting. If we sign Maholm or Saunders, then we have Silva, Carlson, and Cook competing for the rotation as well. That would put the pressure on Bard and Maholm/Saunders. We just need to make sure we get some sort of decent #4 and I personally feel like Saunders or Maholm could be that guy (I'm ready for the criticism).

[Elktonnick]

Fred' date=' according to scouting reports (and from what i've seen) the only pitch that Bowden has that could be labeled as above average is a circle-change. Both you and "The King without a crown" are incorrect in that regard.[/quote']

 

Scouting Report: Bowden has an arsenal of four pitches: (1) an 88-92 mph four-seam fastball that can top out around 94 mph, (2) an average 12-6 hard breaking curve, (3) an excellent circle changeup, and (4) an 83-85 mph slider that he added in 2009, which he hopes to use as an out pitch down the line. Also developing a cutter in 2011. His main pitch - the four-seamer - has a late, heavy sinking movement, and he generally keeps it down in the zone. Bowden can also work in a two-seamer that is a few mph off of his four-seamer, with a bit more movement. His deceptive changeup sits in the low-80s, about 10 mph off of his fastball, with action moving away from lefties. His mid-70s curve is sharp and he keeps hitters at bay with it, but he definitely telegraphs it too often. Overall, Bowden has an excellent command of the zone. One aspect that should come with more experience is improved pitchability against advanced hitters. His mechanics are somewhat unconventional in that his delivery is quite compact and he doesn't pull back with a lot of torque. Relies more on arm strength than leverage. Still, he's able to maintain consistent arm action throughout his outings, so the Sox haven't messed with his delivery. Bowden is said to be a workaholic and just loves to pitch - another player who just lives and dies for baseball. Very athletic and focused and intense on the mound

 

Based on what we have seen of him in the Bigs, I'd say this scouting report is overly generous.