2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

I've been saying that big market teams must win in the short/mid/long term. Yes, we haven't won a damn thing in 4 years. 5 years in a row would be very painful. As a700 said we only need a couple of solid extra moves in order to have a very competitive team. I already put my wish list. C'mon!, it is affordable.

 

Yes Fred, they better change the mindset. For once and for all try to grab Garza and Madsen.

 

I'm trying my best to keep the faith and encouraging others to do the same because for all of my bluster and some of my nasty diatribes directed at the front office you will notice that I take an upbeat mindset for this year if we will only make the additions that are needed. This is not to take anythint away from the Yankees, Rays, Jays and O's, but all of them are either getting old too, or lack pitching, or lack hitting or lack big game experience. We might not have a world beater this season but we could win the AL East if we upgrade properly and that would be a helluva improvement over our past four winlesss years.B)B)B)B)

[iortiz]

Maybe this is a matter of semantics what I've been reading here. Can we compete for the ring? Any team can. What are our odds in order to archive that?. Well, we have been seeded as a 7-10 overall team, thus far. Can we improve that seed? Yes, but there are only a few solid options remaining in the market. Do we have a talented team? Yes, but our current pitching staff is short and with a lot of question marks that could put our talented department (offense) in jeopardy again.

[seabeachfred]

It's f***ing pathetic that a Yankee fan can see this' date=' but a lot of Red Sox fans can't.[/quote']

 

I think a lot of Red Sox fans can see it User, but I think they are holding their ammunition close until the front office makes the upgrades needed? Hell, do I think we can win the division the way we are right now????? Can we win it if we make those upgrades I've been droning on about lately? Yes we can, and as Jacksonian says once you get into the Playoffs anything can happen. Remember the Angels 2002, the Marlins 2003, our guys in 2004, the Cards in 2006 and 2011----heck even the Giants in 2010 were a big surprise.

 

The key to all this in my opinion is to get that decent starting pitcher without giving up our almost ready prospects, another decent reliever to take the place of Snacks Jenks, and, yes, a RH hitting outfielder to platoon out there with Sweeney.:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

[iortiz]

I think a lot of Red Sox fans can see it User, but I think they are holding their ammunition close until the front office makes the upgrades needed? Hell, do I think we can win the division the way we are right now????? Can we win it if we make those upgrades I've been droning on about lately? Yes we can, and as Jacksonian says once you get into the Playoffs anything can happen. Remember the Angels 2002, the Marlins 2003, our guys in 2004, the Cards in 2006 and 2011----heck even the Giants in 2010 were a big surprise.

 

The key to all this in my opinion is to get that decent starting pitcher without giving up our almost ready prospects, another decent reliever to take the place of Snacks Jenks, and, yes, a RH hitting outfielder to platoon out there with Sweeney.:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

 

I think you put it in better words than I, Fred. I think everybody in this board agrees with this.

[Elktonnick]

"The Red Sox were gauging trade interest in some of their out-of-options pitchers at the GM Meetings this week, a source tells Alex Speier of WEEI.com. Franklin Morales, Andrew Miller, Felix Doubront, Michael Bowden and Scott Atchison are all out of options but aren't locks to make next year's bullpen, according to Speier, so Boston may decide to add or remove some of these players from the 40-man roster based on relative trade interest."

 

If this is true then the situation is worse than I had thought. Their chances of competing is directly related to pitching especially their pitching depth. Unless they address this issue I think Shaughnessy's prediction in October of a possible 4th place finish isn't far fetched as shocking as that may be to some.

[a700hitter]

"The Red Sox were gauging trade interest in some of their out-of-options pitchers at the GM Meetings this week, a source tells Alex Speier of WEEI.com. Franklin Morales, Andrew Miller, Felix Doubront, Michael Bowden and Scott Atchison are all out of options but aren't locks to make next year's bullpen, according to Speier, so Boston may decide to add or remove some of these players from the 40-man roster based on relative trade interest."

 

If this is true then the situation is worse than I had thought. Their chances of competing is directly related to pitching especially their pitching depth. Unless they address this issue I think Shaughnessy's prediction in October of a possible 4th place finish isn't far fetched as shocking as that may be to some.

They need to let go of trash like Atchinson and Bowden. No one is going to give you anything for them.

[User Name]

I think a lot of Red Sox fans can see it User, but I think they are holding their ammunition close until the front office makes the upgrades needed? Hell, do I think we can win the division the way we are right now????? Can we win it if we make those upgrades I've been droning on about lately? Yes we can, and as Jacksonian says once you get into the Playoffs anything can happen. Remember the Angels 2002, the Marlins 2003, our guys in 2004, the Cards in 2006 and 2011----heck even the Giants in 2010 were a big surprise.

 

The key to all this in my opinion is to get that decent starting pitcher without giving up our almost ready prospects, another decent reliever to take the place of Snacks Jenks, and, yes, a RH hitting outfielder to platoon out there with Sweeney.:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:

 

I personally think it's all on acquiring a #4 starter. The bullpen problem should be fixed internally by the Red Sox. One of the main criticisms i have of the Red Sox FO is that they are too conservative with their pitching prospects, apparently a fallout from the Craig Hansen debacle. They have a couple of near ML-ready SP's that should be given a chance to pitch out of the BP next year to get acclimated to the bigs. That's how the Twins and Rays do it and look at the success they've had.

[jung]

If in fact they try to off a bunch of these guys based on being out of options they are not going to get much for the whole fleet of them. While on the one hand I can see the Sox not being willing to risk that a guy cannot come up and play but has no options left, I would fail to understand why they think they would get anything meaningful in return. May be able to surround Youk with a few of these guys and get something done but somebody will have to be the linchpin to a trade if that is where they are with these guys.

[jung]

Finally an area of agreement. They absolutely need to let some of these guys pitch. It is my biggest irritation with their team building methodology. They never let these guys up for anything more than a cup of coffee and send them back down for a hangnail.

[a700hitter]

Finally an area of agreement. They absolutely need to let some of these guys pitch. It is my biggest irritation with their team building methodology. They never let these guys up for anything more than a cup of coffee and send them back down for a hangnail.

Some of them really stink.

[Palodios]

I personally think it's all on acquiring a #4 starter. The bullpen problem should be fixed internally by the Red Sox. One of the main criticisms i have of the Red Sox FO is that they are too conservative with their pitching prospects' date=' apparently a fallout from the Craig Hansen debacle. They have a couple of near ML-ready SP's that should be given a chance to pitch out of the BP next year to get acclimated to the bigs. That's how the Twins and Rays do it and look at the success they've had.[/quote']

 

I don't agree with this. Besides Wilson, which Red Sox prospects have they been too conservative with? They have rushed many prospects because of the need for big league pitching-- both Miller and Weiland needed significantly more time in the minor leagues in 2011.

[Elktonnick]

I personally think it's all on acquiring a #4 starter. The bullpen problem should be fixed internally by the Red Sox. One of the main criticisms i have of the Red Sox FO is that they are too conservative with their pitching prospects' date=' apparently a fallout from the Craig Hansen debacle. They have a couple of near ML-ready SP's that should be given a chance to pitch out of the BP next year to get acclimated to the bigs. That's how the Twins and Rays do it and look at the success they've had.[/quote']

 

You are far more positive about the bullpen than I am. I think there are numerous questions especially in view of the lack of options for many of the arms the Red Sox warehouse in Pawtucket. The Pawtuckt/Boston shuttle has been key over the years. If that isn't available then we are SOL IMHO

[Palodios]

They need to let go of trash like Atchinson and Bowden. No one is going to give you anything for them.

 

Bowden isn't going to turn into Randy Johnson like we all were hoping for, but its not too late for him to turn into a decent 6th inning arm.

[User Name]

You are far more positive about the bullpen than I am. I think there are numerous questions especially in view of the lack of options for many of the arms the Red Sox warehouse in Pawtucket. The Pawtuckt/Boston shuttle has been key over the years. If that isn't available then we are SOL IMHO

 

What i mean is they should go the Rays/Twins route of BP building. The current bullpen is not very good, but allowing guys like Alex Wilson, Stolmy Pimentel and Matt Barnes to learn the ropes in the Majors like the Twins and Rays have done with a bunch of guys (Including Scott Baker, Johan Santana, David Price and Matt Moore) would probably give the Sox the possibility of some inexpensive and possibly effective options.

[Palodios]

You are far more positive about the bullpen than I am. I think there are numerous questions especially in view of the lack of options for many of the arms the Red Sox warehouse in Pawtucket. The Pawtuckt/Boston shuttle has been key over the years. If that isn't available then we are SOL IMHO

 

Assuming the Red Sox find another decent arm out there on the cheap like Wheeler last year, I think this is a solid bullpen. There is no way they risk both Aceves and Bard in the rotation, so I think the group looks pretty good.

 

9th Bailey

8th Aceves/Bard

7th Melancon

6th One more signing

Situational lefty - Morales

 

Jenks/Doubront/Tazawa/Albers/Bowden/Rich Hill is a pretty solid group of guys fighting for those last two spots.

[Palodios]

What i mean is they should go the Rays/Twins route of BP building. The current bullpen is not very good' date=' but allowing guys like Alex Wilson, Stolmy Pimentel and Matt Barnes to learn the ropes in the Majors like the Twins and Rays have done with a bunch of guys (Including Scott Baker, Johan Santana, David Price and Matt Moore) would probably give the Sox the possibility of some inexpensive and possibly effective options.[/quote']

 

Besides Wilson, there really are no options like that in this organization. Stolmy posted a 9.00+ ERA at AA last year, and Barnes was a college pitcher in 2011.

[User Name]

Besides Wilson' date=' there really are no options like that in this organization. Stolmy posted a 9.00+ ERA at AA last year, and Barnes was a college pitcher in 2011.[/quote']

 

Stolmy had a couple mechanical problems, and believe it or not, Barnes will probably storm through the Minors to the point that he may see AAA time this year.

 

Those guys who had bad years (like Younginer and Pimentel) are exactly the type of guys i take a look at in ST. This team is too conservative with its pitching prospects.

 

Of course, it's a matter of opinion, so you're welcome to disagree.

[Palodios]

Went to a Red Sox store today. Found something awfully strange. They had players t shirts for 75% off. Obviously Papelbons was there but what was weird was the other player whose jersey was 75% off - Ortiz. Wonder what that's all about. I know he accepted arb' date=' but it is still very strange. I think Beltre and VMarts jerseys went on sale last year right before they signed elsewhere.[/quote']

 

I'm glad you're getting your priorities straight in Boston

 

Ortiz has been the most popular selling jersey in Boston over the last decade. Maybe they're just clearing inventory?

[Palodios]

Stolmy had a couple mechanical problems, and believe it or not, Barnes will probably storm through the Minors to the point that he may see AAA time this year.

 

Those guys who had bad years (like Younginer and Pimentel) are exactly the type of guys i take a look at in ST. This team is too conservative with its pitching prospects.

 

Of course, it's a matter of opinion, so you're welcome to disagree.

 

Fair enough. I can't see any argument for guys that have only had success in A ball/college to be part of the bullpen in 2012, so we'll agree to disagree here.

[jacksonianmarch]

Barnes isnt seeing AAA this yr, UN. He's got great stuff, but will need some time to go through the system.

[User Name]

That's more on the Sox method of promotion that on the kid. If he was on some other teams, enough progression in 2011 and he gets his cup of coffee.

[FredLynn]

Assuming the Red Sox find another decent arm out there on the cheap like Wheeler last year, I think this is a solid bullpen. There is no way they risk both Aceves and Bard in the rotation, so I think the group looks pretty good.

 

9th Bailey

8th Aceves/Bard

7th Melancon

6th One more signing

Situational lefty - Morales

 

Jenks/Doubront/Tazawa/Albers/Bowden/Rich Hill is a pretty solid group of guys fighting for those last two spots.

 

Well, we do have Albers. Oh wait...Albers' career ERA is over 5; and his ERA with the Red Sox starting Aug 1 was 9.97. He stinks. But we have Jenks....but he stinks too. And who is the "one more signing"? Gagne? Wonder what he's doing....

I see Bailey, Aceves, and Melancon as probably being pretty good. Thats about it.

[Palodios]

Well, we do have Albers. Oh wait...Albers' career ERA is over 5; and his ERA with the Red Sox starting Aug 1 was 9.97. He stinks. But we have Jenks....but he stinks too. And who is the "one more signing"? Gagne? Wonder what he's doing....

I see Bailey, Aceves, and Melancon as probably being pretty good. Thats about it.

 

As far as the extra signing, I was thinking a 1/3 contract to a solid 7th inning guy like Dan Wheeler was last year.

 

As far as Albers... he had put an extra 2 MPH on his fastball coming into 2011, and found himself with a 2.50 ERA pre-All-star break and was on his way to a career best season. Problem was, the fat f*** got hurt. But as I said... he's an option, not someone they rely on, and having a guy capable of a 2.50 ERA as depth never hurts.

[FredLynn]

As far as the extra signing, I was thinking a 1/3 contract to a solid 7th inning guy like Dan Wheeler was last year.

 

As far as Albers... he had put an extra 2 MPH on his fastball coming into 2011, and found himself with a 2.50 ERA pre-All-star break and was on his way to a career best season. Problem was, the fat f*** got hurt. But as I said... he's an option, not someone they rely on, and having a guy capable of a 2.50 ERA as depth never hurts.

 

Sure, another reliable RP is a must. I have no idea who that would be. More importantly, I don't see any SP riding in on a white horse either.

[seabeachfred]

They need to let go of trash like Atchinson and Bowden. No one is going to give you anything for them.

 

I would certainly put Andrew Miller in that group as well. Except for one game last season he was pure trash and I don't know how a guy could go backwards so fast and so far as Bowden. In early 2008 Peter Gammons was calling him the best pitcher in the minor leagues---the best of any team. Well what the hell happened to him? I know Gammons is full of s*** sometimes but Bowden was rated highly by most scouts and was in every trade talk the Sox were involved in. Now we couldn't get more than a glass of lemonade for him.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[a700hitter]

I would certainly put Andrew Miller in that group as well. Except for one game last season he was pure trash and I don't know how a guy could go backwards so fast and so far as Bowden. In early 2008 Peter Gammons was calling him the best pitcher in the minor leagues---the best of any team. Well what the hell happened to him? I know Gammons is full of s*** sometimes but Bowden was rated highly by most scouts and was in every trade talk the Sox were involved in. Now we couldn't get more than a glass of lemonade for him.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

The lemonade would have to be warm, and I wouldn't take a chance drinking it.

[Elktonnick]

I would certainly put Andrew Miller in that group as well. Except for one game last season he was pure trash and I don't know how a guy could go backwards so fast and so far as Bowden. In early 2008 Peter Gammons was calling him the best pitcher in the minor leagues---the best of any team. Well what the hell happened to him? I know Gammons is full of s*** sometimes but Bowden was rated highly by most scouts and was in every trade talk the Sox were involved in. Now we couldn't get more than a glass of lemonade for him.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

 

Fred you know my opinion of Bowden. I never understood how anyone who saw him pitch with his delivery could have been high on him

[Bellhorn04]

Fred you know my opinion of Bowden. I never understood how anyone who saw him pitch with his delivery could have been high on him

 

Wouldn't you say his delivery is like Foulke's?

[win red sox]

no doubt the gamble on Ortiz accepting arb backfired, but Ben could still rectify the situation by releasing Ortiz prior to opening day(arbitration does not guaranty a contract) and taking the money freed up and signing Madison 4/36 and Kuroda 1/10. Another interesting option would be Matt Thornton, I'm assuming It wouldn't take much maybe Doubrant(out of options) straight up, the problem is his contratct 2/11 with a club option. It would be nice to have a lefty out the pen that didn't make me a nervous wreck. Also, with the releasing of Ortiz you could have Youkilis/Lavernaway rotate at the DH and balance the lineup. The point is, with the current financial constraints the FO is limited, with the releasing of Ortiz there would be a ton options. Now does Ben have the balls to do it? Probaly not, I would assume they would take a pr hit and we all know how image conscience the organization is.

[a700hitter]

no doubt the gamble on Ortiz accepting arb backfired' date=' but Ben could still rectify the situation by releasing Ortiz prior to opening day(arbitration does not guaranty a contract) and taking the money freed up and signing Madison 4/36 and Kuroda 1/10. Another interesting option would be Matt Thornton, I'm assuming It wouldn't take much maybe Doubrant(out of options) straight up, the problem is his contratct 2/11 with a club option. It would be nice to have a lefty out the pen that didn't make me a nervous wreck. Also, with the releasing of Ortiz you could have Youkilis/Lavernaway rotate at the DH and balance the lineup. The point is, with the current financial constraints the FO is limited, with the releasing of Ortiz there would be a ton options. Now does Ben have the balls to do it? Probaly not, I would assume they would take a pr hit and we all know how image conscience the organization is.[/quote']I don't see Ortiz getting released. The Red Sox would be opening themselves to an action by the players union. When a player is offered and accepts arbitration under the current collective bargaining agreement, the player cuts off his rights to negotiate with other teams. Cutting the player after the arbitrators award would be a clear act of bad faith by the team. I'd love to represent Ortiz in that situation. He'd get a boat load of money from the Red Sox and he'd be declared a free agent.