2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

2004 sucked. They didn't win the division!

[Spitball]

It has probably already been mentioned, but for ten years (!999-2008) the Rays had four number one picks in the draft and eight 1-4 picks. They usually drafted well but did have the advantage of being a bad team for many years.

 

They have done other things well, also, but they did reap the benefits of high draft picks.

[a700hitter]

I think I liked the 2004 team better than the 2007 team. I still think I like the 67 team even better regardless of the fact that they did not seal the deal. I loved just about everybody on that 67 team and Yaz was like a man possessed though the later part of the season and into the post season. You literally had the feeling that there was this force of will all the way out there in left field that was actually controlling the flow of the game from way out there. For me rivaled some of what Jackson has done in the post season only in a different way. Mr. October had those incredible plate appearances. Yaz seemed to be willing the team forward' date=' carrying them defensively, offensively and demanding that they elevate their play way beyond their regular capabilities.[/quote']I agree with you on everything in this post. 1967 made me a fan, because it was so unexpected and improbable. The team was so young. Yaz was the veteran and leader and he was just 28. The rest of the guys were younger. When a crusty tough SOB like Dick Williams continued to say for decades after that he never saw a player have such a perfect all around season like Yaz had in 1967 that really says it all. Those two guys really didn't like each other at all at the end. It was fairly common knowledge tha t Williams had his A's pitchers head hunting Yaz. Yet, Williams paid him this ultimate compliment, and he played with the Dodgers of the 1950's with Jackie Robinson, Campy, Snider against the likes of Mays, Aaron, Musial and the Yankees in the WS with Mantle and Berra. He played with and against all the greats of the late 50's and early 60's.

 

I enjoyed 2004 more than 2007, because it was the first championship and we beat the Yanks in the ALCS. If we had beat the Twins in the ALCS instead of the Yanks, it would not have been as good as 2007, because we only won the Wild Card and finished second to the Yanks. In my mind, it would have lacked a bit of legitimacy.

[a700hitter]

I hear this argument all the time, but here's my question:

 

Have you actually seen the Rays teams of the past 4 years? These aren't some fluke and they aren't representitive of a low revenue club. These are f***ing good baseball teams. They are the exception, not the norm.

 

It's not an excuse, but seriously, the Rays have been legit year in and year out. They've made some good trades and have signed amateur players really well. I know we should be ashamed that they compete with the Sox (and Yanks, mind you) but I got over that a few years ago. They're just good.

See the language in your post that I put in bold. On the one hand, you say that the Rays are not a fluke and one line later, you call them the "exception". The Sox have so much more in the way of resources that the Rays should not be beating them with their payroll. It doesn't matter whether the Rays are for real and really good, and it doesn't matter why the Rays are good. They lost their entire bullpen after 2010 and completely rebuilt it in 2011 and cleaned our clocks. I hope Ben & Cherries can build such a good bullpen from scratch. We know Theo never did.

[Bellhorn04]

Your points are not valid as they are unsupported by facts. Steinbrenner's Yanks had the highest average payrolls of the 1980's' date=' much higher than the Sox. In the early 90's in the few years where the Sox spent more than the Yanks those were actually some of the worst Sox seasons in the post '66 era. They finished below .500 at least twice in the Hobson years even thought they spent more than the Yanks in those years. The years they outspent the Yanks in the early 90's they finished behind them.[/quote']

 

The gap between the Yankees and Sox payrolls didn't really start to grow until 1994. For the years 1985 to 1994 their payrolls compared like this:

 

NYY BOS

1985 13 10

1986 16 15

1987 15 12

1988 19 16

1989 21 19

1990 21 21

1991 28 33

1992 36 42

1993 41 37

1994 45 36

255 241

 

So that's a total difference of about 14 million over 10 years.

 

In 2005 the Yankees outspent the Sox 208 million to 124 million.

[iortiz]

If you put this Rays in a payroll cost vs spotive results perspective, IMO they are the most valuable team in BB, the last 4 Ys. IMO they have the best FO in BB these days. They make extraordinary things with ordinary things (limited things, I'd say). They are not a fluke team anymore.

[a700hitter]

The gap between the Yankees and Sox payrolls didn't really start to grow until 1994. For the years 1985 to 1994 their payrolls compared like this:

 

NYY BOS

1985 13 10

1986 16 15

1987 15 12

1988 19 16

1989 21 19

1990 21 21

1991 28 33

1992 36 42

1993 41 37

1994 45 36

255 241

 

So that's a total difference of about 14 million over 10 years.

 

In 2005 the Yankees outspent the Sox 208 million to 124 million.

Where are the years before 1985. The Yanks had the highest average payroll in the 1980's. The fact the the amounts were much lower doesn't change that the Yankees spent the most in the 1980's. Proportionately the Yanks were pretty close to outspending the Sox by the same amount as they do today. As I pointed out that in 1992, one of the few years when the Sox outspent the Yanks, the Sox came in last place with an under .500 record -- the worst year for the Sox after 1966.

[jung]

It was fairly common knowledge tha t Williams had his A's pitchers head hunting Yaz. Yet, Williams paid him this ultimate compliment, and he played with the Dodgers of the 1950's with Jackie Robinson, Campy, Snider against the likes of Mays, Aaron, Musial and the Yankees in the WS with Mantle and Berra. He played with and against all the greats of the late 50's and early 60's.

 

In my case I saw more of Mantle and Berra than the other players on that list. Certainly a catcher can do much to control the ebb and flow of a game and Mantle often cast a giant shadow especially when he was young and had his legs under him. Still and all I had never till then and never since then seen a guy control the flow of the game from left field the way Yaz did coming down the stretch of that regular reason and all through the post season.

 

Invariably at some point in an opposition rally a hard hit ball found its way to left field. It got to the point where whether a hit or an attempt at a sacrifice, that shot to left killed the rally. So many times during that stretch Yaz would either make a spectacular catch AND throw out the tagging runner or get to a ball that was a hit so quickly AND throw a strike to any base at any time that at some point you would think opposing managers would be thinking "please God hit it anywhere but left. Bunt it if you have to but don't hit it to left". Then he would come up in the next inning and get an extra base RBI to put the Sox out ahead of the very same game! Never seen anything like it before or since. It changed the way I thought about baseball and what was possible from that day forward.

[a700hitter]

In my case I saw more of Mantle and Berra than the other players on that list. Certainly a catcher can do much to control the ebb and flow of a game and Mantle often cast a giant shadow especially when he was young and had his legs under him. Still and all I had never till then and never since then seen a guy control the flow of the game from left field the way Yaz did coming down the stretch of that regular reason and all through the post season.

 

Invariably at some point in an opposition rally a hard hit ball found its way to left field. It got to the point where whether a hit or an attempt at a sacrifice, that shot to left killed the rally. So many times during that stretch Yaz would either make a spectacular catch AND throw out the tagging runner or get to a ball that was a hit so quickly AND throw a strike to any base at any time that at some point you would think opposing managers would be thinking "please God hit it anywhere but left. Bunt it if you have to but don't hit it to left". Then he would come up in the next inning and get an extra base RBI to put the Sox out ahead of the very same game! Never seen anything like it before or since. It changed the way I thought about baseball and what was possible from that day forward.

It's hard for the young Sox fans of today to understand what you are saying. I think that you needed to live through that season to understand it. It was the birth of Red Sox Nation. Yaz and the '67 Sox gave a rebirth to baseball in all of New England and we were the original fans of what is now Red Sox Nation.

[jung]

It's hard for the young Sox fans of today to understand what you are saying. I think that you needed to live through that season to understand it. It was the birth of Red Sox Nation. Yaz and the '67 Sox gave a rebirth to baseball in all of New England and we were the original fans of what is now Red Sox Nation.

 

You are right about that 700. My memory of it is that the Sox opened the 67 season to the usual practically empty Fenway.

 

Not all that unusual. Saw a lotta' green in the stands at Tiger Stadium and Kaminsky of that day. Many of the west coast stadiums were veritable ghost towns where there was at least a decent chance that you could get mugged in one of the tunnels leading to your seat and nobody would know!

[example1]

See the language in your post that I put in bold. On the one hand' date='[/b'] you say that the Rays are not a fluke and one line later, you call them the "exception". The Sox have so much more in the way of resources that the Rays should not be beating them with their payroll. It doesn't matter whether the Rays are for real and really good, and it doesn't matter why the Rays are good. They lost their entire bullpen after 2010 and completely rebuilt it in 2011 and cleaned our clocks. I hope Ben & Cherries can build such a good bullpen from scratch. We know Theo never did.

 

1) Fluke and exception are not exclusive terms here. Their success isn't a fluke, because their players are good. Their success as a franchise is, however, the exception because most teams with their resources aren't anywhere near as successful. Are you sticking with me here?

 

2) They won by a single game... clock cleaning...

[a700hitter]

You are right about that 700. My memory of it is that the Sox opened the 67 season to the usual practically empty Fenway.

 

Not all that unusual. Saw a lotta' green in the stands at Tiger Stadium and Kaminsky of that day. Many of the west coast stadiums were veritable ghost towns where there was at least a decent chance that you could get mugged in one of the tunnels leading to your seat and nobody would know!

I have some pictures that I took at the old Yankee Stadium in 1973 where you can see lots of empty seats against the best teams in the league-- the Tigers, O's and A's.

[a700hitter]

1) Fluke and exception are not exclusive terms here. Their success isn't a fluke, because their players are good. Their success as a franchise is, however, the exception because most teams with their resources aren't anywhere near as successful. Are you sticking with me here?

 

2) They won by a single game... clock cleaning...

as I said, the reasons for Tampa's success don't matter, because they are not excuses for beating the Sox that had four times the payroll. Picking up 9 games on a team in September is cleaning their clock. It really is.

[jung]

Used to be something of an embarrassment to see one of those right field home runs in Yankee Stadium. The ball would bounce from one seat to the next and then roll forlornly down one of the aisles. Eventually some kids would finally get out there to pick up the souvenir.

[example1]

as I said' date=' the reasons for Tampa's success don't matter, because they are not excuses for beating the Sox that had four times the payroll. Picking up 9 games on a team in September is cleaning their clock. It really is.[/quote']

 

Not in my view.

 

If I'm watching a race and one contestant is winning by 9 lengths coming around the last corner and pulls up lame, or trips and falls, and the other guy passes him, I don't consider it having a clock cleaned. That's one guy f***ing up and the other guy taking advantage of it.

 

The Rays were an unremarkable (good, but not remarkable) 17-10 in September.

[a700hitter]

Not in my view.

 

If I'm watching a race and one contestant is winning by 9 lengths coming around the last corner and pulls up lame, or trips and falls, and the other guy passes him, I don't consider it having a clock cleaned. That's one guy f***ing up and the other guy taking advantage of it.

 

The Rays were an unremarkable (good, but not remarkable) 17-10 in September.

You can put whatever spin you want on it. The fact is that you seized upon the "cleaned our clock" language in my post which was not really the point. Let's call it hyperbole. The point of what I was saying is that there is no reason for the Rays beating the Sox that excuses the Sox. As I said in that post, the Rays, had to rebuild their entire bullpen from scratch in 2011 and they still "beat the Sox" (replacing the hyperbole "cleaned our clocks"). Let's hope Benny Boy can do the same with our bullpen. Theo never did.

[jung]

At the end of it all I would say that it was Boston's collapse surely more than it was the Rays victory. The 2011 Sox were not a mentally tough team. In fact it was a pretty candy assed bunch if you ask me.

 

If I found the 2004 team and the 2011 team in an alley about to have a street fight I think you could not get the ambulances there fast enough to cart the 2011 team off to the hospital. It was a candy assed team and at the end of the day that is why it fell apart and acted like a candy assed team.

 

We talk about most of this bunch of dogs coming back for 2012 as if we are supposed to be encouraged because so much of what was supposed to be a loaded team is coming back. I for one am not remotely encouraged. We actually need 18 guys to take the field. Nine to play and one each to stand behind them with a blow torch.

[iortiz]

You can put whatever spin you want on it. The fact is that you seized upon the "cleaned our clock" language in my post which was not really the point. Let's call it hyperbole. The point of what I was saying is that there is no reason for the Rays beating the Sox that excuses the Sox. As I said in that post' date=' the Rays, had to rebuild their entire bullpen from scratch in 2011 and they still "beat the Sox" (replacing the hyperbole "cleaned our clocks"). Let's hope Benny Boy can do the same with our bullpen. Theo never did.[/quote']

 

E1, my friend here is a hard nut to crack, and mostly when is right. .

 

Yes, there is no reason for the Rays beating the Sox that excuses the Sox.

 

About BP, The odds say that it is going to be hard to achieve, if they don't go over the cap or make a substantial trade.

[a700hitter]

E1, my friend here is a hard nut to crack, and mostly when is right. .

 

Yes, there is no reason for the Rays beating the Sox that excuses the Sox.

 

About BP, The odds say that this is going to be hard to achieve, if they don't go over the cap or make a substantial trade.

I am old and experienced enough to know that I wouldn't waste my time arguing for positions that are wrong.

[iortiz]

I am old and experienced enough to know that I wouldn't waste my time arguing for positions that are wrong.

 

 

That is known as wisdom!

[seabeachfred]

I agree with you on everything in this post. 1967 made me a fan, because it was so unexpected and improbable. The team was so young. Yaz was the veteran and leader and he was just 28. The rest of the guys were younger. When a crusty tough SOB like Dick Williams continued to say for decades after that he never saw a player have such a perfect all around season like Yaz had in 1967 that really says it all. Those two guys really didn't like each other at all at the end. It was fairly common knowledge tha t Williams had his A's pitchers head hunting Yaz. Yet, Williams paid him this ultimate compliment, and he played with the Dodgers of the 1950's with Jackie Robinson, Campy, Snider against the likes of Mays, Aaron, Musial and the Yankees in the WS with Mantle and Berra. He played with and against all the greats of the late 50's and early 60's.

 

I enjoyed 2004 more than 2007, because it was the first championship and we beat the Yanks in the ALCS. If we had beat the Twins in the ALCS instead of the Yanks, it would not have been as good as 2007, because we only won the Wild Card and finished second to the Yanks. In my mind, it would have lacked a bit of legitimacy.

 

Dick Williams is my favorite manager of all time and I tried to pattern myself after him during most of my 30+ years of coaching baseball. He corrected mistakes immediately and didn't lolly gag and wait for things to calm down to say something, and let me also say that he was a terrific manager in helping to develop players on the Big League level. Reggie Smith, Mike Andrews, Reggie Jackson, Sal Bando, Catfish Hunter, Tony Gwynn, Kevin Mc Reynolds, Andre Dawson. Gary Carter---the list is endless. I never cared much for Yaz until I became part of RSN and lauded his great career. He was a bit of a spoiled and pampered player and was mainly responsible for getting Williams axed. Bad move by the Red Sox when you think of some of the stiffs that followed him.

 

You like the 2004 team better and that's understandable since you and the rest of the crowd have followed the Red Sox longer than I have and have suffered through more tryin times as well. Four years after I came on board the pulled off the miracle so it wasn't a long time for me. As I said earlier the 2007 team won everything and I like to see that because it means we beat the Yankees and to me that's over half the battle.

[example1]

You can put whatever spin you want on it. The fact is that you seized upon the "cleaned our clock" language in my post which was not really the point. Let's call it hyperbole. The point of what I was saying is that there is no reason for the Rays beating the Sox that excuses the Sox. As I said in that post' date=' the Rays, had to rebuild their entire bullpen from scratch in 2011 and they still "beat the Sox" (replacing the hyperbole "cleaned our clocks"). Let's hope Benny Boy can do the same with our bullpen. Theo never did.[/quote']

 

I have found you to be extremely tolerable recently. Your views are reasoned and your willingness to change language to clarify your point is well appreciated. Thanks.

 

Nope, no reason for the Rays winning that excuses the Sox. Nothing excuses the Sox for their end of 2011 performance.

 

Will have to see about the bullpen. I have no clue what they are hoping to do or what direction I would want them to go. Frankly, I can't say that I know most of the good young bullpen arms that are out there to be traded for.

[Emmz]

e1 and a700 getting along?! What's going on here???

[example1]

E1, my friend here is a hard nut to crack, and mostly when is right. .

 

Yes, there is no reason for the Rays beating the Sox that excuses the Sox.

 

About BP, The odds say that it is going to be hard to achieve, if they don't go over the cap or make a substantial trade.

 

Lucchino was on the radio the other day talking about wanting Cherington to be bold, and implied that this could be particularly in the realm of trades. They have soured on FA for the moment.

 

I suppose there's a small chance they are all just biding their time for an aggressive push on Darvish, but between the Rangers, Yankees, Marlins, Jays and probably a few others, that seems unlikely.

 

A substantial trade could include Youkilis, or Ellsbury, or I suppose Buchholz (who has a VERY favorable contract which could make him coveted by just about every team in the game). It seems more likely that they will shift previous philosophies and part with MLB ready talent. Obviously a team that got a package including Middlebrooks, Kalish, Ranaudo + would be getting a lot of not-too-distant talent, and the Sox could get a lot in return.

 

Hopefully that isn't Gio Gonzalez.

[a700hitter]

e1 and a700 getting along?! What's going on here???

In the end, it is just more fun to like me than to hate me.

[example1]

In the end' date=' it is just more fun to like me than to hate me.[/quote']

 

Much less work.

[Emmz]

In the end' date=' it is just more fun to like me than to hate me.[/quote']

 

I think that's how most people feel about me LOL

 

@e1: I think that is also how most people feel about me.

[iortiz]

Lucchino was on the radio the other day talking about wanting Cherington to be bold, and implied that this could be particularly in the realm of trades. They have soured on FA for the moment.

 

I suppose there's a small chance they are all just biding their time for an aggressive push on Darvish, but between the Rangers, Yankees, Marlins, Jays and probably a few others, that seems unlikely.

 

A substantial trade could include Youkilis, or Ellsbury, or I suppose Buchholz (who has a VERY favorable contract which could make him coveted by just about every team in the game). It seems more likely that they will shift previous philosophies and part with MLB ready talent. Obviously a team that got a package including Middlebrooks, Kalish, Ranaudo + would be getting a lot of not-too-distant talent, and the Sox could get a lot in return.

 

Hopefully that isn't Gio Gonzalez.

 

I'm concerned E1, being honest. Our 2012 pitching (rotation + BP) doesn't look encouraging. Hopefully our FO surprise us.

[a700hitter]

Much less work.

It takes energy to hate. I have no time for it, but I will never stop hating the Yankees.

[jung]

I have believed since part way through the winter meetings that if the Sox are going to get anything done that might fit the description of bold or decisive or even relevant, it will be by the trade route this year. It might be the one way they can stay under the cap and still get some things done. They might also be able to rid themselves of some problems that will not be solved by having V around but will likely only turn into open festering sores. I think either Beckett or Youk are prime candidates to be moved....maybe even Ells if only because of pending FA in his case. They may just be to screwed in pitching to do anything with Beckett. So if I were a betting man of the three I would bet it is Youk that will likely be gone.

 

It is amazing to me that after a year like they just had and with being identified as the ring leader of the SP gang, Beckett could not stay out of trouble past the beginning of December.