2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

Prince Fielder Rumors: Monday

By Tim Dierkes [December 5 at 1:44pm CST]

 

The latest on free agent slugger Prince Fielder...

 

The market for Fielder appears to be shrinking, hears Tom Haudricourt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel from team executives.

An article or blurb about Prince Fielder and shrinking just caught my eye.

[boy racer]

An article or blurb about Prince Fielder and shrinking just caught my eye.

 

ZING!

[Elktonnick]

Nice strawman. Also' date=' where are the pitching statistics? The main problem of the 2011 Boston Red Sox.[/quote']

 

Not a sttrawman at all. Just making the point that stats cited in the post that I commented on were offensive ones. And they don't tell the whole story. The only stat that counts is games won. Sometimes the best offense over the course of a year wins the most games, sometimes not. All the stats that were quoted above are, in performance measure terms , are what we call "process measures." The only "outcome" measure in baseball terms that count are total wins. For example, the team that wins the most games wins the division title. The only time total runs count are in an individual game.

 

The strawman is actually yours since you raise pitching stats. BTW which team did have the best era in the american league last year? Oh! the Angels! And we know how their season went.

[boy racer]

Overall, I hope that Ortiz doesn't lose interest. Cherington said that he'd work on keeping him in a Sox uniform. What do you guys think about the Papelbon situation? I haven't heard anything on top prospects for his slot, not that I've been digging deep or anything.

[User Name]

Not a sttrawman at all. Just making the point that stats cited in the post that I commented on were offensive ones. And they don't tell the whole story. The only stat that counts is games won. Sometimes the best offense over the course of a year wins the most games, sometimes not. All the stats that were quoted above are, in performance measure terms , are what we call "process measures." The only "outcome" measure in baseball terms that count are total wins. For example, the team that wins the most games wins the division title. The only time total runs count are in an individual game.

 

The strawman is actually yours since you raise pitching stats. BTW which team did have the best era in the american league last year? Oh! the Angels! And we know how their season went.

 

It is a strawman for two reasons:

 

First: Because you are assigning the imaginary position that someone here believes that stats "tell the whole story" about the game of baseball. No one on this board has expressed that opinion. My mentioning the pitching stats was a tongue-in-cheek comment that even if the poster was (and he wasn't) using stats as a barometer to identify the performance of the 2011 Red Sox , then he should have used pitching and defensive stats, which may have painted a clearer picture of the inherent problems with the club, although an incomplete one, because the problems with this team last year went beyond simply measuring performance. You jumped in at the incomplete analysis to support your agenda.

 

Second: The poster who you are quoting did not mean "mediocre" in terms of the division, he was talking about MLB, and a 90 win team in MLB is not mediocre by any stretch of the imagination, unless you assign your personal interpretation, which, in this case, is "mediocre in the division". Don't move the goalposts to support your argument.

 

I know you think stats aren't the be-all, end- all, which is actually the truth, but they are a useful tool for evaluating player performance. No need to discredit them every chance you get.

 

By the way, E1's original post was a misinterpretation of a previous 700hitter post, in which he said that a 25-man roster full of 8 million players would be a $200 million team of mediocrity. So you were misinterpreting a misinterpretation, which i find interesting.

[Elktonnick]

It is a strawman for two reasons:

 

First: Because you are assigning the imaginary position that someone here believes that stats "tell the whole story" about the game of baseball. No one on this board has expressed that opinion. My mentioning the pitching stats was a tongue-in-cheek comment that even if the poster was (and he wasn't) using stats as a barometer to identify the performance of the 2011 Red Sox , then he should have used pitching and defensive stats, which may have painted a clearer picture of the inherent problems with the club, although an incomplete one, because the problems with this team last year went beyond simply measuring performance. You jumped in at the incomplete analysis to support your agenda.

 

Second: The poster who you are quoting did not mean "mediocre" in terms of the division, he was talking about MLB, and a 90 win team in MLB is not mediocre by any stretch of the imagination, unless you assign your personal interpretation, which, in this case, is "mediocre in the division". Don't move the goalposts to support your argument.

 

I know you think stats aren't the be-all, end- all, which is actually the truth, but they are a useful tool for evaluating player performance. No need to discredit them every chance you get.

 

By the way, E1's original post was a misinterpretation of a previous 700hitter post, in which he said that a 25-man roster full of 8 million players would be a $200 million team of mediocrity. So you were misinterpreting a misinterpretation, which i find interesting.

 

Congratulations. One of your better and more cogent posts. I can actually agree to most of it. Just to set the record straight. I believe in stats and use proprietary analytical performance measures daily. I just don't place the emphasis on them to the extent that some here do. I will discredit them when they are overstated as they were above.. For me everything is in context. Mediocrity is a relative term. But we have had this discussion before.

[a700hitter]

C.J. Wilson Has Six-Year Offer

By Tim Dierkes [December 5, 2011 at 3:37pm CST]

 

Free agent lefty C.J. Wilson has a six-year offer in hand from a team other than the Rangers, reports Jeff Wilson of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. The Rangers, Angels, Marlins, Nationals, and a mystery team are currently in the mix. Wilson hopes to sign this week, but won't sign with a team just because it offered six years. Agent Bob Garber will meet with the Rangers tonight or Tuesday morning. Yesterday, it was reported that Wilson had offers from four teams.

 

Wilson and Roy Oswalt are represented by Garber, who said, "I have the two best clients out there. C.J. is comfortable with the process and confident with how things have been going. Roy basically said, 'Take car of C.J. I'll wait in the wings. Once C.J. and [Mark] Buehrle have signed, my market will open up."

[FredLynn]

 

Any team that leads the league in OBP, SLG, OPS, Total Bases, Runs, Hits, and XBH is far from mediocre.

 

But we were mediocre, at least by the standards set by Red Sox fans, however unrealistic those standards are. Sox fans expect a competitive team every year, and over the last three years, that just hasn't worked out. You can lead the league in offense, but if the pitching is 8th in the AL you are generally doomed.

[User Name]

But we were mediocre' date=' at least by the standards set by Red Sox fans, however unrealistic those standards are. Sox fans expect a competitive team every year, and over the last three years, that just hasn't worked out. You can lead the league in offense, but if the pitching is 8th in the AL you are generally doomed.[/quote']

 

They were 9th, which is even worse. And don't even check the month-by-month pitching splits, they are sickening.

 

I guess a bit of stats here and there can shed light on the reasons for the team struggles last year eh?

[Elktonnick]

They were 9th, which is even worse. And don't even check the month-by-month pitching splits, they are sickening.

 

I guess a bit of stats here and there can shed light on the reasons for the team struggles last year eh?

 

Both you and Pumpsie are correct after a thorough analysis of all the data the actually scientific term used by Red Sox Nation to describe them was: We "SUCKED"

[User Name]

Both you and Pumpsie are correct after a thorough analysis of all the data the actually scientific term used by Red Sox Nation to describe them was: We "SUCKED"

 

I would add the word "HARD" to that statement.

[seabeachfred]

Not a sttrawman at all. Just making the point that stats cited in the post that I commented on were offensive ones. And they don't tell the whole story. The only stat that counts is games won. Sometimes the best offense over the course of a year wins the most games, sometimes not. All the stats that were quoted above are, in performance measure terms , are what we call "process measures." The only "outcome" measure in baseball terms that count are total wins. For example, the team that wins the most games wins the division title. The only time total runs count are in an individual game.

 

The strawman is actually yours since you raise pitching stats. BTW which team did have the best era in the american league last year? Oh! the Angels! And we know how their season went.

 

Well Elk, I think I will go out on limb here as I do elsewhere and just come out and say it. Next year we will not lose between 10-12 games in the dugout because FrancoMa is no longer here and we finally have a manager that is a solid game and dugout skipper. We do have to get a RH hitting outfielder, one starting pitcher, a closer and three relievers. That's six players and it is going to take some real creativity as well as some money allocated to bring this about. Still, I feel better knowing that Tito is no longer around, but, then again, maybe I shouldn't say that either. I hear he is still hanging around Boston and making appearances on radio sports talk shows. Just wonder when he is finally going to get the hell out of town for good.

[User Name]

Well Elk' date=' I think I will go out on limb here as I do elsewhere and just come out and say it. Next year we will not lose between 10-12 games in the dugout because FrancoMa is no longer here and we finally have a manager that is a solid game and dugout skipper. We do have to get a RH hitting outfielder, one starting pitcher, a closer and three relievers. That's six players and it is going to take some real creativity as well as some money allocated to bring this about. Still, I feel better knowing that Tito is no longer around, but, then again, maybe I shouldn't say that either. I hear he is still hanging around Boston and making appearances on radio sports talk shows. Just wonder when he is finally going to get the hell out of town for good.[/quote']

 

What about the strength and conditioning as well as the medical staff? They are gone as well. Rejoice!

[a700hitter]

An AL West source told Gordon Edes of ESPN Boston (Twitter link) that he expects the Athletics to move Gio Gonzalez.

[Elktonnick]

What about the strength and conditioning as well as the medical staff? They are gone as well. Rejoice!

 

I do believe that the subtractions have left the team better even with its holes.

[User Name]

I do believe that the subtractions have left the team better even with its holes.

 

Now that you mention the subject of addition by subtraction, Valentine is yet to announce a pitching coach.

 

I think Bob Apodaca and Rick Peterson should both be strong candidates for the position, and i'm not a huge fan of either.

[SoxSport]

Market shrinking for Fielder? A pun, or what?

 

There has to be a concern about his body type. His dad lasted until about 34.

He's 27, and should be good for another 5 years. He won't get 8-10 years.

[seabeachfred]

What about the strength and conditioning as well as the medical staff? They are gone as well. Rejoice!

 

Those are helluva good points User. Man did I go off the handle on another board moaning about our inept medical staff and their constant misdiagnoses on our key players the past few years. Amazing such professionals could be so wrong so much of the time. The final straw was when they refused to give Buchholz and MRI when he complained of back trouble thinking it only a strain. Yea right!!!!! Good riddance to them. Now if we can continue the house cleaning and send Varitek and Wakefield on their way it would tell me we're trying to get it right.

 

No news from Dallas yet and I still haven't a clue if we are going to go the FA or trade route to get up to speed. OK, I'll let the cat out of the bag. The pitcher I want is Garza, the RH hitting outfielder is Michael Cuddyer, the closer is Ryan Matson, the three relievers I'm not sure of but I would take a flier on Balfour and Ayala and a solid lefty who might be out there. You said similar things on this as I have. What are your choices if you have them?

[Palodios]

CJ Wilson has six year offer

 

I'd bet that it is from either the O's, Nats, or Marlins.

[Palodios]

That's a $200 million payroll of mediocrity.

 

You are officially a pesimist, and no longer a realist after a comment like this.

 

Pedroia, A-gon, Lester, Ellsbury, Bard, Aceves and Buchholz all made less than 8 million. Mike Cameron made more than all of those players, and Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Youkilis and Dice-k all made more than 8 million.

[seabeachfred]

Now that you mention the subject of addition by subtraction, Valentine is yet to announce a pitching coach.

 

I think Bob Apodaca and Rick Peterson should both be strong candidates for the position, and i'm not a huge fan of either.

 

Come on User, ease up on Bob Apodaca. Bobby played on my teams in Downey, California from 1963 through 1966, including All Star Teams. This guy is a real smart cookie with a lot of moxie, a fast learner and a real over achiever. Not drafted after college, he signed a free agent contract with the Mets, was a winning pitcher in A, AA and AAA ball in successive years and made it to the big club in time for the 1973 pennant. He knows pitching and has done a pretty damn good job in Colorado, normally a graveyard for the guys on the mound. I had to defend one of my old boys.

[DeadHorseSociety]

4:49pm: According to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (via Twitter), the Red Sox are still involved in the Wilson sweepstakes. Morosi's fellow FOX scribe Ken Rosenthal adds in a separate tweet that the Cubs have spoken with Garber in an attempt to gauge the market for the southpaw.

[VA Sox Fan]

Well Elk' date=' I think I will go out on limb here as I do elsewhere and just come out and say it. Next year we will not lose between 10-12 games in the dugout because FrancoMa is no longer here and we finally have a manager that is a solid game and dugout skipper. We do have to get a RH hitting outfielder, one starting pitcher, a closer and three relievers. That's six players and it is going to take some real creativity as well as some money allocated to bring this about. [b']Still, I feel better knowing that Tito is no longer around, but, then again, maybe I shouldn't say that either. I hear he is still hanging around Boston and making appearances on radio sports talk shows. Just wonder when he is finally going to get the hell out of town for good[/b].

 

Are the Tito jabs still really necessary? Nice job with the FrancoMA reference, original and predictable as always. He has lived in Boston for the most part since 2004 and people still want to talk to him and the majority of fans will always appreciate what he helped the Red Sox achieve in 04 and 07. He is far from perfect, made mistakes as everyone does.

 

Here is a quote in today's Globe by someone who actually knew Terry Francona. Joe Madden when asked about Valentine being the new manager:

 

 

"I think it's very interesting, I think it makes our division even more interesting as you suggested. I'm not going to say better because I'm not going to denigrate Tito (Francona). I thought Tito did a great job while he was there, and I was a lot of respect for him, a ton of respect for him. It's just a different scenario there now. It's a different form of competition. But Bobby definitely is going to add to the interest level in our division. And in baseball in general, I he's a wonderful man. I love his enthusiasm for the day, not just baseball."

 

Move forward fred.

[FredLynn]

 

Lets all hope that Morosi is wrong. A long term contract with CJ Wilson is exactly what we do not need. We already have Lackey and Matsusaka in that category. I do not trust Wilson, especially in the ALE.

[User Name]

Those are helluva good points User. Man did I go off the handle on another board moaning about our inept medical staff and their constant misdiagnoses on our key players the past few years. Amazing such professionals could be so wrong so much of the time. The final straw was when they refused to give Buchholz and MRI when he complained of back trouble thinking it only a strain. Yea right!!!!! Good riddance to them. Now if we can continue the house cleaning and send Varitek and Wakefield on their way it would tell me we're trying to get it right.

 

No news from Dallas yet and I still haven't a clue if we are going to go the FA or trade route to get up to speed. OK, I'll let the cat out of the bag. The pitcher I want is Garza, the RH hitting outfielder is Michael Cuddyer, the closer is Ryan Matson, the three relievers I'm not sure of but I would take a flier on Balfour and Ayala and a solid lefty who might be out there. You said similar things on this as I have. What are your choices if you have them?

 

I like Roy Oswalt, Willingham, Madson, Ayala, Thornton. I think two bullpen pieces plus a closer would do it.

 

There are so many ways they could go that i don't even really know.

[VA Sox Fan]

 

"DeadHorseSociety"??? LMAO You will fit in well around here.

[a700hitter]

You are officially a pesimist, and no longer a realist after a comment like this.

 

Pedroia, A-gon, Lester, Ellsbury, Bard, Aceves and Buchholz all made less than 8 million. Mike Cameron made more than all of those players, and Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Youkilis and Dice-k all made more than 8 million.

So the theory is that the any group of 25 players each making $8 million, the team should rock for a measly sum of $200 million.

[Elktonnick]

Now that you mention the subject of addition by subtraction, Valentine is yet to announce a pitching coach.

 

I think Bob Apodaca and Rick Peterson should both be strong candidates for the position, and i'm not a huge fan of either.

 

Apodaca I understand is under contract to Colorado so he may not be able to move. I heard Hershieser's name mentioned.

[Meh]

Apodaca I understand is under contract to Colorado so he may not be able to move. I heard Hershieser's name mentioned.

 

Orel is trying to buy the Dodgers.

[Elktonnick]

Orel is trying to buy the Dodgers.

 

Guess that lets him out:D