2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

User' date=' are you still convinced that the Red Sox are moving along at a pace that's acceptable? I think you told me I should just relax and let things take their course and I wonder if you changed your mind hearing about Joe Nathan's $14.5 million two year contract with the Rangers? To me, if Nathan is getting that kind of money think of what the going rate for closers is going to be. Now if they are deciding to go with Bard, we should all know that he has never closed before and looked pretty bad the last month of the year, not to mention that he lost nine games for us when entrusted with a tie or a lead this past season. Even they annointed him the closer, where is the set-up man, where is the 7th inning reliever? And please don't tell me Morales, Weiland, Miller or Bowden fit the bill because you know as well as I do they none of them do. [b']The price just climbed for quality relievers[/b] and if we don't start moving soon the prices will only keep climbing until all of them are gone. In the meantime our bungling leaders still cannot decide to our manager should be. Kuddos to you for your patience, but I have to tell you it is getting to be a concern for some of us here.

 

Some people will never understand this.

 

As I said, the closers IMO have evolved. Today, the closer job is a specialty, they are no longer commodities (take this as: just few relievers can take this spot; not anybody). Since the league has turned more competitive year after year, this kind of spots mark differences in a W or a L and mostly in close games. Papelbon is arguably the best projected closer in the league and the best who was available. He is 30. He has proved that he can execute in your environment. He is not fragile, in fact, I don't remember him being a distinguishable DL resident like Jenks, D-K, etc. 4/50 is too much for the best (arguably) in the position? because relievers are prone to injuries (even he has been healthy through 6 years)? because he is asking Mo's money; I would, wouldn't you? (-17% by year, actually), because is a long term contract for a reliever? again, 4 years is too much for a young, ace and healthy closer? for a speciality?, Really?

[User Name]

Yes, because it's not like almost every year a team doesn't hand the closer job to a complete unknown who proves more than competent for the job.

 

What "some people" will never understand is that the closer spot is overrated. You do need a very good closer to succeed, but the thing is that those aren't that hard to find, and the Sox probably have one already.

[a700hitter]

Some people will never understand this.

 

As I said, the closers IMO have evolved. Today, the closer job is a specialty, they are no longer commodities (take this as: just few relievers can take this spot; not anybody). Since the league has turned more competitive year after year, this kind of spots mark differences in a W or a L and mostly in close games. Papelbon is arguably the best projected closer in the league and the best who was available. He is 30. He has proved that he can execute in your environment. He is not fragile, in fact, I don't remember him being a distinguishable DL resident like Jenks, D-K, etc. 4/50 is too much for the best (arguably) in the position? because relievers are prone to injuries (even he has been healthy through 6 years)? because he is asking Mo's money; I would, wouldn't you? (-17% by year, actually), because is a long term contract for a reliever? again, 4 years is too much for a young, ace and healthy closer? for a speciality?, Really?

Signing a broken down old warhorse like Nathan for 2 years/$14 million indicates that the reliever market will be inflated, especially in light of the fact that 7 teams are looking to land closers. I think there is a real possibility that the Sox will not add a power arm for the end of the bullpen at the the inflated prices. That will leave quite a hole in the pen. The starting rotation had better be healthy and strong, because a pen with this type of hole cannot standup to exposure. They will crumble early unless Fatty Jenks surprises us and contributes big time to the late inning rotation.

[User Name]

From Ricky Doyle:

 

The Red Sox have caught a lot of heat this offseason, and, admittedly, much of it has been deserved. But a recent column in The Boston Globe regarding the team's current state seemed more like a barroom rant than a levelheaded assessment.

 

Dan Shaughnessy labeled the Red Sox a "doofus organization," before then going on a lengthy tirade about the club's tumultuous offseason and eventually questioning ownership's intelligence.

 

Sure, the organization has seen better days, as the Sox failed to live up to their World Series aspirations in 2011 and have since had a roller-coaster offseason. But much of what Shaughnessy points to as reasons why the team's ownership is, in his opinion, inept is based around offseason happenings that are either irrelevant, too early to judge or completely unworthy of such bold, senseless scrutiny.

 

The Red Sox did collapse down the stretch, and the fallout has been less than glorious, especially the departures of Terry Francona and Theo Epstein and rumors regarding a lack of leadership in the clubhouse. But to go ahead and label an entire organization -- one that's won two World Series titles since 2004 -- as "doofus" is just bit mind-boggling.

 

The Epstein compensation talks have been drawn out and the frequent news that there is no news is rather strange. But to criticize the Red Sox for a lack of resolution means one is nitpicking a bit.

 

Epstein is a great baseball executive and one who helped lead the Sox to success they hadn't enjoyed in nearly a century. But when it comes down to his departure, should the Sox really have held out for Matt Garza, as Shaughnessy suggests?

 

Epstein may have had value -- although "tremendous value" may be overstating it -- but holding an entire franchise hostage while its general manager situation plays out would have been equally as frustrating to watch. After Francona's departure, Epstein represented the first domino, and it was crucial for the team to figure out if he was officially Chicago-bound. As much uncertainty as there still is in Boston, there would have been even more uncertainty if the future of the team's GM position remained in limbo much longer.

 

What's interesting about Shaughnessy's insistence that the Sox should have held out before letting Epstein head to Chicago, though, is that he's also a bit concerned about how long the managerial search is taking, pointing to the Cardinals' swift hiring of Mike Matheny as their skipper. This begs the question of why he feels it's prudent that the team exhibit so much patience when it comes to one facet of the organization, but then assume something's wrong with the "chain of command" when such patience is shown in a different area.

 

Finding a new Red Sox manager is important, but what's more important is finding the right guy, no matter who's involved in the decision-making, what goes into the decision-making and how long it takes to arrive at said decision.

 

Shaughnessy feels the Sox made Ben Cherington look powerless, as he says the Sox GM went to the Dominican Republic to scout Cuban prospect Yoenis Cespedes "while the grown-ups resume the managerial search." The only problem with that logic is that talks with Bobby Valentine, a new candidate for the position, were put on hold while Cherington was in the D.R. So what could really be the case is that Cherington and the Sox also realize the team needs to continue to address the on-field product -- as crazy as that notion may sound.

 

And when it comes to that on-field product, most players still view the Red Sox as a franchise committed to winning. Jonathan Papelbon has left town, but not offering him a record-setting deal to trump Philadelphia's shouldn't be held against the Sox, as doling out hefty contracts to relievers is risky business. If the Sox do look for a long-term replacement for Papelbon outside the organization, though, free-agent closer Heath Bell appears more than willing if they come knocking with a suitable offer.

 

The same can likely be said for a number of other free agents. And why shouldn't Boston remain a prime destination for those on the open market? The team's activity when it comes to thinking outside the box in the way of transactions and player development is admirable, even if rough times (like the collapse and this offseason) do fall upon it from time to time.

 

So while Shaughnessy wants to sit around and speculate about who's flexing their muscles inside the team's front office, it might be best to take a step back and let things play out a bit before crying wolf for seemingly the hundredth time this offseason.

 

At the end of the day, the only concern is that the Sox -- as a whole -- are able to flex their muscle in the AL East in 2012. 2011 may have ended prematurely, and that obviously can't be completely thrown out. But something tells me that the Red Sox will continue to remain competitive despite everything else that's gone on.

 

And that, my friend, in and of itself, proves that this "cumbersome ownership group" knows what its doing when it comes to running this "doofus organization."

[iortiz]

Singing a broken down old warhorse like Nathan for 2 years/$14 million indicates that the reliever market will be inflated' date=' especially in light of the fact that 7 teams are looking to land closers. I think there is a real possibility that the Sox will not add a power arm for the end of the bullpen at the the inflated prices. That will leave quite a hole in the pen. The starting rotation had better be healthy and strong, because a pen with this type of hole cannot standup to exposure. They will crumble early unless Fatty Jenks surprises us and contributes big time to the late inning rotation.[/quote']

 

 

Exactly. I really believe the market is moving that way, specially for closers.

 

And Yes, I believe Bard will take the job (even I think, he is not ready, hope I'm wrong).

 

About Jenks, I don't know man, I think he is done. We better invest in BP arms. Healthy and solid.

[Meh]

Singing a broken down old warhorse like Nathan for 2 years/$14 million indicates that the reliever market will be inflated' date=' especially in light of the fact that 7 teams are looking to land closers. [/quote']

 

If you thought Bard gave up a lot of runs to the Yankees. Nathan is the biggest reason why the Twins had such a hard time winning a game against the Yankees. Red Sox fans should rejoice not signing him. I see you're interested in Street, maybe making it a bigger deal to get Ianetta too?

[SoxSport]

I don't think the Sox will spend big bucks on a closer.Not with Bard available. They might sign a lesser reliever for cheaper money as Jenks insurance protection. There are a lot of closers available out there, and they could get somebody cheap, which might change the dynamic.

[Laser Show]

I stand by my original idea to go hard after K Rod and keep Bard as the setup guy.

[RonVermette]

I expect the Sox to sign 2 good setup men who might be able to close if Bard & Jenks don't pan out.

[Spitball]

I don't think the Sox will spend big bucks on a closer.Not with Bard available. They might sign a lesser reliever for cheaper money as Jenks insurance protection. There are a lot of closers available out there' date=' and they could get somebody cheap, which might change the dynamic.[/quote']

 

I agree. With the Red Sox current situation (lots of big contracts), it is logical we will see a different mindset when filling holes. Why pay for the aging, high dollar player when there is a younger and cheaper option available?

 

For several years going back, I believe the Sox would be bidding crazy dollars to get the best available closer. I think that we will see a modification of the old operating model. I think the Sox will go with Bard is the inhouse affordable option as closer. Otherwise, we would have seen the Sox make a competitive offer to Papelbon before the Phillies signed him.

[a700hitter]

Bard is the obvious choice for closer, but who pitches the 8th inning to fill the role that Bard will be vacating? If the answer is Aceves, he will be a significant step down from Bard, and who fills Aceves role as the flex/long reliever? No matter how you slice it, this bullpen is down one big arm. Getting 1or 2 middle inning guys will not make up for what has been lost.

[Spitball]

Bard is the obvious choice for closer' date=' but who pitches the 8th inning to fill the role that Bard will be vacating? If the answer is Aceves, he will be a significant step down from Bard, and who fills Aceves role as the flex/long reliever? No matter how you slice it, this bullpen is down one big arm. Getting 1or 2 middle inning guys will not make up for what has been lost.[/quote']

 

I agree, but it is the logical direction. Building a bullpen is a crapshoot. I believe the Sox burned up too many bullpen innings last year by failing to push for quality starts from the rotation. Building a bullpen is the job of the gm, and avoiding burning out that bullpen is the job of the manager and his braintrust.

[a700hitter]

I agree' date=' but it is the logical direction. Building a bullpen is a crapshoot. I believe the Sox burned up too many bullpen innings last year by failing to push for quality starts from the rotation. Building a bullpen is the job of the gm, and avoiding burning out that bullpen is the job of the manager and his braintrust.[/quote']The way i look at it is if they don't want to invest the $ into replacing Papelbon, they need to strengthen the starting rotation so that the bullpen doesn't get overused or overexposed. We don't have the rotation right now to limit the exposure of the bullpen. Three starters and 2 PTBNL are not going to do the trick. If they don't upgrade the rotation, we are going to have to get a big comeback season from Jenks. I have little confidence that jenks will be a reliable end of game reliever. It is more likely that he will go missing at an all you can eat buffet.

[jung]

A starter going deep into games is for the most a factor of his ability to stay out of trouble and not give up runs well into the later innings of the game. Given the very high likelihood that the Sox won't be seriously in the hunt in the FA, SP high rent district this off season, I find it unlikely that whoever they bring in to round out the rotation will give the BP much help from the perspective of oft getting past the 7th inning and may even have trouble getting out of the 6th.

 

So I think that means that we would like to see Jenks turn into something besides a total waste and will still need more help to round out the BP.

[seabeachfred]

I expect the Sox to sign 2 good setup men who might be able to close if Bard & Jenks don't pan out.

 

Let's stop for a moment right there Ron. Jenks is not going to work out. He was terrible this year for us, got injured and looked like he was trying to eat himself out of the bullpen. If he recovers it will be a miracle. Ozzie Guillen had this guy pegged right from what I've seen. As for Bard, he could turn into another Papelbon because we weren't sure what we were getting when he replaced Keith Foulke as closer at the start of the '06 season. If Bard doesn't work out then we are all in deep s***. For our sakes he has to make it work. That still leaves us three decent relievers short and by that I don't mean Morales, Bowden and Weiland. They proved how unreliable they were when given a chance last season. Yes, a bullpen is a crapshoot but you would think more emphasis would be placed upon it, something Epstein did not think was that important. Remember he was the guy who insisted that we could get by with a "closer by committee" back in 2003, and that miserable failure cost us the division title and home field advantage in the Playoffs.

 

This time we have to get it right. We need more of the shoot and less of the crap this time around. We need middle relievers and a set-up man who can get the outs when we need them from the seventh inning on. Of course, it would help immensely if Beckett, Lester and Buchholz could pitch like a credible "Big Three" and this year go deeper in games.

[Spitball]

The way i look at it is if they don't want to invest the $ into replacing Papelbon' date=' they need to strengthen the starting rotation so that the bullpen doesn't get overused or overexposed. We don't have the rotation right now to limit the exposure of the bullpen. Three starters and 2 PTBNL are not going to do the trick. If they don't upgrade the rotation, we are going to have to get a big comeback season from Jenks. I have little confidence that jenks will be a reliable end of game reliever. It is more likely that he will go missing at an all you can eat buffet.[/quote']

 

I'd rather they use Bard as a closer and pay for starting pitching. Paying for bullpen pitchers can be difficult, but it is an art to employ the bullpen in an effective manner. The Cardinals won the WS using different inexpensive pitchers through the season in a variety of roles until an effective employment was found. From this, we can probably learn that success is more about employment and flexiblity than money spent.

[example1]

Bard can close. Any questions you have about his "make up" should be mitigated by his "stuff" which is markedly better than any other closer on the market, including Papelbon.

 

As for the 8th inning guy, sure, they should get someone who is a lock-down, guaranteed not to fail set-up man. Baring that (because those guys don't exist on the market, they become closers for the team they were previously setting up for) they either need to go the existing closer route (Madsen, Bell, etc.,) or the middle reliever route.

 

Anyone remember a guy named Okijima? He was an unknown in 2007 and ended up being the setup man. They don't need to identify the guy right now. They just need to have enough options. I wouldn't be shocked if Alex Wilson or Kyle Weiland or even Michael Bowden played a significant role in the pen--hell, Wilson could be a setup guy.

 

If you're one of the folks who wishes that the Sox had Andrew Friedman running the team, you better believe those are exactly the types of moves he would be exploring. Benoit, Farnsworth, etc., were not bonafide closers or setup men when he relied on them. And if you think that with a newfound financial advantage suddenly Friedman would be putting his money into MR and SU pitchers, think again. Even a team with the Sox financial advantage needs to budget and figure out where to allocate funds.

 

With another MVP season people will be wishing the Sox could sign Ellsbury and take back the $10m paid to a setup man (the most volatile position in the sport).

 

Ideally they will get a "name" to placate the fans at closer, keep Bard in the 8th inning role, and add another bullpen arm of two. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[a700hitter]

 

Ideally they will get a "name" to placate the fans at closer, keep Bard in the 8th inning role, and add another bullpen arm of two. No need to reinvent the wheel.

First off, if the FO is so thin-skinned that they would make moves to placate the fans to avoid being the object of criticism, they should all be fired. Their job is to improve the team. If they can"t do that and take the heat that comes along with it, they need to get out of our kitchen.

 

As for getting a closer and keeping Bard as the 8th inning guy, other than KRod, I don't see any possibilities that I like, and KRod's price tag will probably be very high. I don't like Bell. He's 34 and he will want 3 years. I'd rather have given 4 yrs to Paps. The best thing the Sox can do to help their bullpen is to bolster the starting rotation. If they don't and fatso Jenks cannot play a significant role, the bullpen will be a shambles by the end of June.

[a700hitter]

Guardians Re-Sign Grady Sizemore

By Tim Dierkes [November 23, 2011 at 10:12am CST]

 

Grady Sizemore will remain with the Guardians in 2012, announced the team today. Sizemore receives a $5MM base salary and $4MM in incentives on a one-year deal, tweets ESPN's Buster Olney. He has a chance to reach the value of the option the Guardians turned down, with the incentives kicking in at 450 plate appearances according to MLB.com's Jordan Bastian. Sizemore would get $500K for winning the Comeback Player of the Year award, tweets Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. A corresponding 40-man roster move is a few days away, according to the team.

 

The Guardians chose a $500K buyout over Sizemore's $9MM option in October, and with at least eight teams showing interest it seemed that he'd play elsewhere for the first time in his big league career. Sizemore, 29, is a risky player given his health issues the last three years. From 2005-08, he was one of the game's best players for the Tribe, garnering MVP votes in each season.

 

Since 2009 Sizemore has missed time due to injuries to his elbow, abdominal wall, and left knee, the last of which required microfracture surgery in June of 2010. He had surgery for a sports hernia this year, and a right knee injury culminated in an October arthroscopy. He's expected to be ready for Spring Training. Sizemore's agent, Joe Urbon of CAA Sports, says his client will continue to play center field for the Guardians.

 

Sizemore ranked 26th on my top 50 free agents list. With six of the 50 having signed so far, five of the 5,020 entrants in MLBTR's free agent prediction contest have four correct picks.

 

Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports first reported Sizemore's likely return to the Guardians on Friday, with SI's Jon Heyman declaring it official this morning.

[jung]

Unless I am missing something it does seem like the Guardians made out pretty good on this deal. Got at least a bit of a home town discount it seems.

[RonVermette]

Expect Ortiz to be offered arbitration today/tonight. Looks like Wheeler & Varitek won't . Wouldn't be surprised if they're invited to spring training though. They're only 34.

[a700hitter]

 

Royals To Sign Bruce Chen

 

By Ben Nicholson-Smith [November 23 at 4:02pm CST]

 

Piece by piece, the Royals' rotation is taking shape. They have agreed to sign Bruce Chen*to a two-year deal worth*$9MM. The deal also includes a $1MM roster bonus and up to $1MM in incentives.

 

Before agreeing to terms with Chen, Royals GM Dayton Moore told Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star*that he is looking to add one or two more pitchers to compete with their internal candidates. Left-handers*Jonathan Sanchez,*Danny Duffy*and Chen join right-handers*Luke Hochevar,*Felipe Paulino*in the projected 2012 rotation at this point and relievers*Aaron Crow*and*Everett Teaford*could also transition to the rotation. Though Moore has already added two arms this offseason, the Royals lack top-of-the-rotation starters and may continue to pursue trades for available pitching.

 

Chen posted a 3.77 ERA with 5.6 K/9 and 2.9 BB/9 in 155 innings for the Royals this past season.*The Royals*offered*the 34-year-old Scott Boras client*arbitration*earlier today, which means they would have obtained a compensatory draft pick had he accepted one of his*other offers.*

 

Jon Heyman of SI.com first reported the agreement (Twitter*links) after Dutton*reported that the sides were nearing a deal.

If crap like Chen can get 2yrs/9 million, what will real MLB pitchers get?

[Rdsxmbnt]

Decent 4.17 and 3.77 ERAs over the past two years, probably worth 4.5 mil a year

[a700hitter]

Decent 4.17 and 3.77 ERAs over the past two years' date=' probably worth 4.5 mil a year[/quote']I guess he could be one of those late-blooming soft-throwing lefties, but IMO he is still garbage.

[Station 13]

If crap like Chen can get 2yrs/9 million' date=' what will real MLB pitchers get?[/quote']

 

$4.5M yr for 150IP of 3.75 ERA is absolutely a bargain.

[jung]

Decent 4.17 and 3.77 ERAs over the past two years, probably worth 4.5 mil a year

 

I tend to agree. 2/9 sounds about right for pitching at those levels. $4.5 is just not going to buy much in the way of SP but I am not sure that you would expect more. He did have one complete game in 2011 and for that kind of money I was shocked that he actually even had one. 155 innings pitched was not much of a surprise either. He did take the ball 25 times in 2011. At some level I guess that is commendable for guy making $4.5M per. If the Sox were to spend the same kind of money on a guy for the back end of their rotation, I would not expect to see him with stats much different from what Chen produced.

 

That said if Aceves is going to slot into the 5 spot I would expect the Sox to have to pay at least double what Chen got for a decent #4 SP expecting him to pitch in the AL East.

[a700hitter]

$4.5M yr for 150IP of 3.75 ERA is absolutely a bargain.

If you could buy that performance going forward, it would be a bargain, but look at the guy's career. I have no reason to believe that he can show any consistent success. I might have taken a 1 year flier on him, but not a 2 year contract. He's as likely to go 3-5 and be in the minors by June as he is to repeat last years success.

[jung]

I would bet that Chen would have gotten more than 4.5 per if it was only a one year deal. Since he is staying with the same team, KC probably knows or thinks they know something about the guy that makes them comfortable with a 2 year deal. At age 34 he is to old for a long term deal. 2 years is probably as good as a guy with his portfolio was going to do.

[FredLynn]

Of note:

 

Today is the last day the Sox can offer arbitration to their FAs. Of note is that Wheeler is apparently not going to get that offer.

His stats after he came back from from the DL in May are: ERA: 2.54, BAA: .253; OPSa: .567

Why is he not being offered arbitration? He made what: $3m? This is a mistake.

[SoxSport]

I've heard the Sox offered arb to Ortiz and Wheeler. declined on everybody else including Tek, Wake, Bedard, Drew, Jackson and Miller.

 

https://twitter.com/#!/ESPNJoeyMac/status/139545349999169536