2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[SoxSport]

It is only significant in that it is indicative that this organization is a PR disaster and highly dysfunctional right now. I hope he can right the ship and does pull the strings so long as we get our sh-t together.

 

The problem is that Lucchino didn't take charge of the manager search up front--even though he is in charge of the manager search. They gave the impression it was Cherington's call--which is tall order for a guy you just hired as GM. Clearly, it isn't Cherington's call, and it shouldn't be. Managers are hired two levels above. That's Lucchino.

[a700hitter]

A nice pickup by Philadelphia.

 

Phillies Acquire Ty Wigginton From Rockies

By Dan Mennella [November 20 at 6:10pm CST]

 

The Phillies have acquired utility man Ty Wigginton from the Rockies in exchange for a player to be named or cash, Colorado announced on its official Twitter feed (link).

 

The teams will split Wigginton's $4MM 2012 salary, according to Troy Renck of the Denver Post, and the Rox can recoup another player or more cash if the Phils exercise Wigginton's $4MM 2013 option (Twitter links). The player to be named or cash will switch hands within six months, tweets Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com.

 

Wigginton, who turned 34 last month, owns a .265/.325/.443 career line in 10 seasons with the Mets, Pirates, Rays, Astros, Orioles and Rockies, though he's been better against lefties (.274/.353/.461) than righties (.261/.313/.437) by a healthy margin. Wigginton has primarily played third base but has seen action at first base and even logged time at second and in left field.

 

The Phils had reportedly been pursuing free agent utility man Michael Cuddyer, so it's fair to infer that the acquisition of Wigginton means they're out of the Cuddyer bidding. Cuddyer and Wigginton are roughly comparable players in terms of their positional profiles and age, although Cuddyer, 33 in March, has posted a better offensive line in his career: .272/.343./.451. Wigginton, though, should prove a significantly cheaper addition.

 

Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. said he regards Wigginton primarily as a corner infielder and occasional outfielder, according to Matt Gelb of the Philadelphia Inquirer (Twitter), who adds that Wiggy will be insurance for Placido Polanco and Ryan Howard. The latter suffered a torn Achilles tendon in the Phils' postseason-ending loss to the Cards in the NLCS, so there's some concern over whether he'll be ready on Opening Day.

 

Wigginton's departure from Colorado should open the door for catcher/first baseman/third baseman Jordan Pacheco, who played well during a late-season cup of coffee in 2011, to fill a similar role in 2012, tweets Renck.

[Elktonnick]

The problem is that Lucchino didn't take charge of the manager search up front--even though he is in charge of the manager search. They gave the impression it was Cherington's call--which is tall order for a guy you just hired as GM. Clearly' date=' it isn't Cherington's call, and it shouldn't be. Managers are hired two levels above. That's Lucchino.[/quote']

 

You are absolutely correct. The net effect was they hung Ben out there. It isn't clear whether they gave Ben clear guidance on what they were looking for in a manager. As the warden said in Cool Hand Luke "What we have here is failure to communicate"

[seabeachfred]

It is only significant in that it is indicative that this organization is a PR disaster and highly dysfunctional right now. I hope he can right the ship and does pull the strings so long as we get our sh-t together.

 

No matter what you and 700 and others say, those who are fully in agreement with what the FO is doing simply will not listen. You know about that, right? We've dealt with those types before. Now they are entitled to their opinions and their beliefs in the "go slow methods" if they think that will net us success at the end. At least the people here to do that know the game and can hold their own with anyone, but it is puzzling that those people don't recognize that right now our team is in dysfunctional mode and the guys at the top can't seem to stop running into each other The managerial search has turned into a farce, the new GM has been totally emasculated and has become a joke on almost all Red Sox boards, and we still have not made one move to sign a pitcher, RH hitting outfielder, or the three relievers we will need. We said similar things two weeks ago and were told to wait, we said this one week ago and we were accused to jumping the gun. We are still sayig this and those who disagree with us still think all is fine, and when an in-the-know writer like Dan Shaunessy weighs in with some truthful comments that are critical he also gets criticized.

 

The Red Sox simply collapsed and came apart in sections this past September. There has to be an urgency to start fixing things and all we're seeing is more broken examples of team rot. If Lucchino is in charge he needs to get his ass in gear and start making moves, like tomorrow.

[iortiz]

How much budget does this team has? 20 M? How many holes do they need to fill? What is available in the market? What teams are going to push for those players that we have already considered to push for as well?, etc, etc.

 

My point is, this 2012 offseason is going to be complex gentlemen. If you put those issues in a shaker, the scenario and options will be a few.

 

They will need to make stronger, deeper and more creative cases at each hole needed given the circunstances than they used to make in the recent past. As soon as their first options in those holes can be covered, (beyond who are those) a certain stability and calm will reign again in the environment.

 

Yes, still too "early". Rethinking about this, I don't really care whether they sign the players today or until Febraury. What really matters to me is that they sign solid and healthy players. What really matters to me is that they sign their first options/prospects. What really matters to me is that they already have a strategy/plan to face this 2012 offseason. What really matters to me is that they can assemble a contender team. That Gentlemen, is what really matter.

 

Yes, as soon as possible would be better, no doubt about that, But this is not a matter of time but sign solid players who can make us better.

 

On the other hand, When some of us see that other teams are signing players while we have not even been capable to sign a manager or receive Theo compensation, PLUS, all this speculation, misunderstanding and disinformation about the roles of our operation, and the recent epic collapse, make fans, media and the entire eviorement wonder what the hell is going on with this team, and some could even piss off about this; and you know what, I don't blame them.

 

As fans, we can speculate and make our own judgement. Speaking for myself, what really worries me is that the signs around this team are not encouraging at all thus far; but again, this is a matter of perception, only time will tell.

[sleepyhollow]

According to Jeff Passan, Valentine is to meet with Gentle Ben on Monday.

[SoxSport]

According to Jeff Passan' date=' Valentine is to meet with Gentle Ben on Monday.[/quote']

 

Yeah, and gentle Ben will be even gentler in the future.

 

If Valentine gets hired, the era when the GM is in the dugout will have ended.

[seabeachfred]

How much budget does this team has? 20 M? How many holes do they need to fill? What is available in the market? What teams are going to push for those players that we have already considered to push for as well?, etc, etc.

 

My point is, this 2012 offseason is going to be complex gentlemen. If you put those issues in a shaker, the scenario and options will be a few.

 

They will need to make stronger, deeper and more creative cases at each hole that this team needs than they used to make given the circunstances. As soon as their first options in those holes can be covered, (beyond who are those) a certain stability and calm will reign again in the environment.

 

Yes, still too "early". Rethinking about this, I don't really care whether they sign the players today or until Febraury. What really matters to me is that they sign solid and healthy players. What really matters to me is that they sign their first options/prospects. What really matters to me is that they already have a strategy/plan to face this 2012 offseason. What really matters to me is that they can assemble a contender team. That Gentlemen, is what really matter.

 

Yes, as soon as possible would be better, no doubt about that, But this is not a matter of time but sign solid players who can make us better.

 

On the other hand, When some of us see that other teams are signing players while we have not even been capable to sign a manager or receive Theo compensation, PLUS, all this speculation, misunderstanding and disinformation about the roles of our operation, and the recent epic collapse, make fans, media and the entire eviorement wonder what the hell is going on with this team, and some could even piss off about this; and you know what, I don't blame them.

 

As fans, we can speculate and make our own judgement. Speaking for myself, what really worries me is that the signs around this team are not encouraging at all thus far; but again, this is a matter of perception, only time will tell.

 

It's on the other hand that worries me iortiz. Sure, I would rather wait until January or February to get better and healthier ballplayers than sign some in November and December and see we've signed a bunch of Theo-type turkeys, but the way the front office is bumbling around we could wait until later to sign players and still wind up with turkeys. The front office seems to be totally out to lunch right now. Letting Epstein go before compensation was agreed upon was a miserable mistake. Now Il Duce Lucchino is going hat in hand to Selig trying to coax a decent player from the Cubbies. Good luck on that.

 

This manager search has turned into a Halloween charade. If Valentine isn't appointed skipper this week we will know that they are not only trying to replicate the Keystone Cops but starting their own rendition of Who's on First, substituting manager for the first baseman. Then as you said iortiz other teams are starting to sign players while we're in backpeddling mode. Everyone is entitled to take their own take on this but for those of us who are a little pissed off, well I think right at this moment we have a right to be. Some say wait but we've been waiting the better part of a month for something to evolve and so far ZILCH!!!!!! It's time for Henry and Co to get their s*** together.

[seabeachfred]

How much budget does this team has? 20 M? How many holes do they need to fill? What is available in the market? What teams are going to push for those players that we have already considered to push for as well?, etc, etc.

 

My point is, this 2012 offseason is going to be complex gentlemen. If you put those issues in a shaker, the scenario and options will be a few.

 

They will need to make stronger, deeper and more creative cases at each hole that this team needs than they used to make given the circunstances. As soon as their first options in those holes can be covered, (beyond who are those) a certain stability and calm will reign again in the environment.

 

Yes, still too "early". Rethinking about this, I don't really care whether they sign the players today or until Febraury. What really matters to me is that they sign solid and healthy players. What really matters to me is that they sign their first options/prospects. What really matters to me is that they already have a strategy/plan to face this 2012 offseason. What really matters to me is that they can assemble a contender team. That Gentlemen, is what really matter.

 

Yes, as soon as possible would be better, no doubt about that, But this is not a matter of time but sign solid players who can make us better.

 

On the other hand, When some of us see that other teams are signing players while we have not even been capable to sign a manager or receive Theo compensation, PLUS, all this speculation, misunderstanding and disinformation about the roles of our operation, and the recent epic collapse, make fans, media and the entire eviorement wonder what the hell is going on with this team, and some could even piss off about this; and you know what, I don't blame them.

 

As fans, we can speculate and make our own judgement. Speaking for myself, what really worries me is that the signs around this team are not encouraging at all thus far; but again, this is a matter of perception, only time will tell.

[a700hitter]

Every team goes into the off season with a strategy. The high value targets identified by the Sox will no doubt also be on the lists of other teams. If they wait, those targets will get signed forcing the team to move to plan B and so forth. As they wait, the options start to dwindle. They need to be out in front of this process. Waiting and watching guys come off the boards or get traded to other teams is not measured and considerate. They have had 7 weeks to measure and consider. Now, they have to execute. This manager search is not a good sign, unless they are looking to sign Pujols and they want to entice him bringing LaRussa in as manager. That is way off the charts as a probability.

[iortiz]

It's on the other hand that worries me iortiz. Sure' date=' I would rather wait until January or February to get better and healthier ballplayers than sign some in November and December and see we've signed a bunch of Theo-type turkeys, but the way the front office is bumbling around we could wait until later to sign players and still wind up with turkeys. The front office seems to be totally out to lunch right now. [b']Letting Epstein go before compensation was agreed upon was a miserable mistake[/b]. Now Il Duce Lucchino is going hat in hand to Selig trying to coax a decent player from the Cubbies. Good luck on that.

 

This manager search has turned into a Halloween charade. If Valentine isn't appointed skipper this week we will know that they are not only trying to replicate the Keystone Cops but starting their own rendition of Who's on First, substituting manager for the first baseman. Then as you said iortiz other teams are starting to sign players while we're in backpeddling mode. Everyone is entitled to take their own take on this but for those of us who are a little pissed off, well I think right at this moment we have a right to be. Some say wait but we've been waiting the better part of a month for something to evolve and so far ZILCH!!!!!! It's time for Henry and Co to get their s*** together.

 

My question is, what would happen if they don't agree in the terms of that "compensation"? ...

 

What you say is true. If you aske me, To me doesn't make sense that you give your piece, and you don't receive what you are expecting to receive, or at least have already agreed what is at least the minimal conditions/pieces that you are going to receive. This Theo compensation is obtuse to me in every aspect.

 

Every team goes into the off season with a strategy. The high value targets identified by the Sox will no doubt also be on the lists of other teams. If they wait' date=' those targets will get signed forcing the team to move to plan B and so forth. As they wait, the options start to dwindle. They need to be out in front of this process. Waiting and watching guys come off the boards or get traded to other teams is not measured and considerate. They have had 7 weeks to measure and consider. Now, they have to execute. This manager search is not a good sign, unless they are looking to sign Pujols and they want to entice him bringing LaRussa in as manager. That is way off the charts as a probability.[/quote']

 

As I said, I hope they have at least a solid strategy to face this 2012 offseason, but after trying to read between lines, I really doubt they have clear what they really want/need since LL seems to go in one direction and BC in other.

[RonVermette]

I have no problem with their taking the time to do it right, rather than rushing to judgement.

I'd rather they signed a pitcher or 2 & reached a decision about Ortiz before deciding on a manager.

The spring training schedule is up(times included). 6 games against Minnesota, 4 against Tampa.

[a700hitter]

My question is, what would happen if they don't agree in the terms of that "compensation"? ...

 

What you say is true. If you aske me, To me doesn't make sense that you give your piece, and you don't receive what you are expecting to receive, or at least have already agreed what is at least the minimal conditions/pieces that you are going to receive. This Theo compensation is obtuse to me in every aspect.

Under normal circumstances in a business outside of baseball, Theo would remain under contract with the Red Sox for 2012 and the Cubbies would have to have Hoyer or someone else run the team during 2012. They couldn't contact Theo, because that would constitute tampering. That would be an ugly situation for all so Selig would no doubt exercise his czar-like powers and step in for the "good of the game." The Cubs know this, so the Sox have no leverage. The Sox are going to end up taking whatever Selig decides they should get.

 

For people as old as me, they might remember that Dick Williams quit on the A's after the 1973 World Series and signed to work for the Yankees in 1974. Williams was still under contract with the A's for at least 1974. Charlie Finley would not release Williams from his contract, so the Yankees had to hire a new manager, and Williams was without a job for 1974, because he refused to work for Charlie Finley. Finley gave Williams permission to manage the Angels in mid-1974. They were a terrible team.

[iortiz]

Under normal circumstances in a business outside of baseball' date=' Theo would remain under contract with the Red Sox for 2012 and the Cubbies would have to have Hoyer or someone else run the team during 2012. They couldn't contact Theo, because that would constitute tampering. That would be an ugly situation for all so Selig would no doubt exercise his czar-like powers and step in for the "good of the game." The Cubs know this, so the Sox have no leverage. [b']The Sox are going to end up taking whatever Selig decides they should get.[/b]

 

For people as old as me, they might remember that Dick Williams quit on the A's after the 1973 World Series and signed to work for the Yankees in 1974. Williams was still under contract with the A's for at least 1974. Charlie Finley would not release Williams from his contract, so the Yankees had to hire a new manager, and Williams was without a job for 1974, because he refused to work for Charlie Finley. Finley gave Williams permission to manage the Angels in mid-1974. They were a terrible team.

 

That is exactly what I guess is going to happen. In my perspective, The cubbies have the power in this negotiation. I don't see Theo giving up top prospect for him hehehe (sounds weird).

 

Said that and If you see this case coldly, they shouldn't even spend a minute to analyze this, neither us...

[Meh]

A nice pickup by Philadelphia.

 

A VERY nice pickup, assuming the PTBNL is nothing.

[seabeachfred]

The problem is that Lucchino didn't take charge of the manager search up front--even though he is in charge of the manager search. They gave the impression it was Cherington's call--which is tall order for a guy you just hired as GM. Clearly' date=' it isn't Cherington's call, and it shouldn't be. Managers are hired two levels above. That's Lucchino.[/quote']

 

For some reason I missed reading yourpost SoxSport but I think you nailed it. My question is why didn't Lucchino take charge when this farce started? Was it that he wanted to give the impression that Cherington was really in charge of the managerial search because if it was it didn't fool anybody and all it did was set things back a couple of weeks.

 

This whole episode reads like something out of the Wizard of Oz. It is now time to bring this thing to a halt and hire the manager (my choice is Valentine) and then get down to the business of rebuilding those parts of our team that need attention. As 700 put it, the longer we wait to get down to the business at hand the more it puts us behind the curve if other teams start signing guys we have a genuine interest in.

[SoxSport]

For some reason I missed reading yourpost SoxSport but I think you nailed it. My question is why didn't Lucchino take charge when this farce started? Was it that he wanted to give the impression that Cherington was really in charge of the managerial search because if it was it didn't fool anybody and all it did was set things back a couple of weeks.

 

This whole episode reads like something out of the Wizard of Oz. It is now time to bring this thing to a halt and hire the manager (my choice is Valentine) and then get down to the business of rebuilding those parts of our team that need attention. As 700 put it, the longer we wait to get down to the business at hand the more it puts us behind the curve if other teams start signing guys we have a genuine interest in.

 

Yeah, you don't know what the heck they were doing there. I think their problem is they don't have a PR expert in house to help them through these things. They need one voice. Henry barging into WEEI is another example.

 

Looking at Valentine's background, and seeing him today on video, you don't know why they went through that interview process. They obviously need a veteran manager to run this team. It's enough they've got a novice as GM.

[mvp 78]

But if Bobby V is the "exactly what the Sox need" as numerous posters on here have said, wouldn't he just leave him in mop up duty and ignore the "sacred cow" BS?

[a700hitter]

It looks like the A's want a pretty hefty price for Gio Gonzalez:

 

The A’s have demanded a package containing Logan Morrison or Mike Stanton for Gonzalez and the Marlins “flatly rejected” the possibility.

[a700hitter]

More cleaning house on the FO front:

 

Red Sox GM Ben Cherington confirmed Craig Shipley will no longer be the team’s VP of player personnel and international operations, according to Alex Speier of WEEI.com (on Twitter).

[SoxSport]

The Sox have two right fielders right now--Kalish and Reddick. Trade bait there. Gio G. is a star on the cusp. Maybe Beane will take Swisher from the Yankees for him--a guy he has always coveted.

 

I think Shipley's leaving is a sign they want to upgrade their Latin America effort. Minaya could be the replacement.

[User Name]

Interesting that Swisher is a guy "Beane has always coveted" since Beane himself drafted him in 2002, developed him, and then had him for 4 years in the A's roster before trading him to the White Sox.

[a700hitter]

List of posters i'm supposed to be: Dutchy' date=' AtWork, Dipre, Boomer. Keep 'em coming. [/quote'] Don't forget Imperial59 and Yaz Sideburn. You are the one that keeps'em coming.

 

Back to ignore for you. Only Dutchy and his progeny are on my ignore list. Spitball was acquitted of being Dutchy some time ago.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox, Angels, Twins, Reds, Marlins, Blue Jays and Mets are among the teams with potential interest in closers, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com (on Twitter).

Seven teams seeking closers, that should help drive up the price.

[User Name]

Don't forget Imperial59 and Yaz Sideburn. You are the one that keeps'em coming.

 

Bask to ignore for you. Only Dutchy and his progeny are on my ignore list. Spitball was acquitted of being Dutchy some time ago.

 

What is this supposed to be? I don't now, but could you please stop annoying me? Pretty please with sugar on top?

[ORS]

Interesting that Swisher is a guy "Beane has always coveted" since Beane himself drafted him in 2002' date=' developed him, and then had him for 4 years in the A's roster before trading him to the White Sox.[/quote']

Recovet? To covet, lose all covet, and ultimately covet again. Circle of life. A covet with a reach-around to the past.

 

Switching gears, I think there is a unique set of circustances in play that is making everyone kind of Chicken Little-ish about making a move now, now now, .......DO SOMETHING NOW! One, the awful end to the season. Two, Papelbon's signing with another team, which, if you think about it, was kind of early in the hot-stove season. You don't usually see the premier player available at his position off the board early. In fact, my recollection is that the premier player usually lets the market get set and then cashes in. I'll wait to level my criticisms until all the chips from the offseason have been played.

[User Name]

Recovet? To covet, lose all covet, and ultimately covet again. Circle of life. A covet with a reach-around to the past.

 

Switching gears, I think there is a unique set of circustances in play that is making everyone kind of Chicken Little-ish about making a move now, now now, .......DO SOMETHING NOW! One, the awful end to the season. Two, Papelbon's signing with another team, which, if you think about it, was kind of early in the hot-stove season. You don't usually see the premier player available at his position off the board early. In fact, my recollection is that the premier player usually lets the market get set and then cashes in. I'll wait to level my criticisms until all the chips from the offseason have been played.

 

Which is the sensible thing to do. Hiding behind the fact that you're a "fan" to be irrational doesn't make it any less annoying.

 

Love the Chicken Little thing too.

[User Name]

Speier on the Red Sox and Nathan as well as the closer search:

 

According to a major league source, the Red Sox talked to former Twins closer Joe Nathan but never made an offer to the right-hander before he agreed to a two-year, $14.5 million deal with the Rangers that includes a $9 million team option for 2014.

 

Nathan, after missing all of 2010 after undergoing Tommy John surgery, returned in 2011 while going 2-1 with a 4.84 ERA, 43 strikeouts and 14 walks in 44 2/3 innings (48 games) in the final year of his four-year, $47 million contract with Minnesota. He grew stronger as the season progressed, with a 3.91 ERA and 22-to-5 strikeout-to-walk rate after the All-Star break (compared to a 5.82 ERA and 21-to-9 strikeout-to-walk rate in the first half). Nathan reclaimed his role as Twins closer, converting all 11 of his save opportunities in the second half.

 

Nathan, who had been among the most dominant relievers in the game prior to undergoing Tommy John surgery, was regarded by multiple teams as a strong buy-low candidate, given his track record, the improvement of his stuff as the 2011 season progressed and the possibility of signing him to a short-term deal, perhaps later in the offseason, after the top closers (most notably Jonathan Papelbon, Ryan Madson, Heath Bell) came off the board.

 

However, the Rangers did not wait, instead moving early to lock up Nathan on a multi-year deal, a move that will allow Texas to move Neftali Feliz from the closer’s role to the rotation.

 

According to the source, the Red Sox were uncomfortable with the idea of a multi-year contract for Nathan given his age (he turns 37 today). That, in turn, could have implications for the Sox’ talks with another free agent, Francisco Cordero, who like Nathan, is coming off a four-year deal and who, like Nathan, will be pitching his age 37 season in 2012 (Cordero is six months younger than Nathan).

 

That said, it is worth noting that Cordero (who turns 37 in May) has been one of the more durable relievers in the majors for years. He has made at least 65 appearances in nine straight seasons.

 

While the ceiling for the closer market was likely set by Papelbon’s four-year, $50 million deal, it remains to be seen whether Nathan’s deal will be treated as a floor for the market, given that he was the oldest closer available and that he was coming off a two-year stretch in which he missed a year due to injury, struggled in the initial stages of his return and then began to round back into form.

 

Other closers who remain available via free agency include Madson, Bell, Cordero, Francisco Rodriguez, Matt Capps (who is open to a short-term deal as either a setup man or closer) and Frank Franciso, among others.

[seabeachfred]

Speier on the Red Sox and Nathan as well as the closer search:

 

User, are you still convinced that the Red Sox are moving along at a pace that's acceptable? I think you told me I should just relax and let things take their course and I wonder if you changed your mind hearing about Joe Nathan's $14.5 million two year contract with the Rangers? To me, if Nathan is getting that kind of money think of what the going rate for closers is going to be. Now if they are deciding to go with Bard, we should all know that he has never closed before and looked pretty bad the last month of the year, not to mention that he lost nine games for us when entrusted with a tie or a lead this past season. Even they annointed him the closer, where is the set-up man, where is the 7th inning reliever? And please don't tell me Morales, Weiland, Miller or Bowden fit the bill because you know as well as I do they none of them do. The price just climbed for quality relievers and if we don't start moving soon the prices will only keep climbing until all of them are gone. In the meantime our bungling leaders still cannot decide to our manager should be. Kuddos to you for your patience, but I have to tell you it is getting to be a concern for some of us here.

[User Name]

As said above, i will wait until the chips fall before casting judgment. As far as i'm concerned, they're juggling between the manager situation, and working on the on-field product, and negotiations for players usually take time, with Papelbon being the exception that proves the rule.

 

No point in flipping my s*** over a roster that hasn't finished taking shape for 2012. If i see a product that is less than desirable believe me i will condemn them as well, but i just can't believe that this team's upper management can't do three things at the same time. If they can't, then they should look for an alternate method of employment.