Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[example1]

These are the episodes I am talking about. You notice how "ticky" and anxious he get's until he throw is over to 1B? Even when there is no logical reason to do it. And did you notice how quick Farrell and or V-Mart got to the mound after these episodes,( once I believe the team finally realized that these were the moments during which Clay tended to "lose it")?

 

Maybe you don't see it because you don't know what to look for. And I'm not saying that as a bad thing or that your not smart or anything like that.

 

Trust me when I say that people with OCD are the absolute very best at spotting other people with OCD. I don't if he knows it yet, or if the team does or both are oblivious. Or maybe they know and they rather something like this really not make it public. Could put a red flag on him. Similar to Grienke and his social anxiety. Still most teams would trade for him, but there would be some measurable concern with him no?

 

But believe me, you put Clay and Farrell in front of a Shrink, say "hey doc, we got this young kid here, all the talent in the world. But we have an issue with him. He will cruise along with no problems, seemingly calm as can be, but as soon as a runner gets on something changes(sometimes not always). He becomes anxious, and throws over to 1B, even when we don't tell him to, and a lot of the time when the runner is physically standing on the bag. Really at the most illogical times.And if he doesn't do it he becomes even more flustered and really loses focus. And we can't figure out why he does it or why it has this effect on him. I guarantee the very first avenue the shrink will explore is OCD.

 

Listen, like I said it's personal view of mine. I'm just trying to explain what I see. I'm not going to have any issue with someone who may think I'm wrong. Totally understandable.

 

 

I generally know what to look for, and I don't think he has OCD. I am a mental health professional who works with lots of people with OCD, other anxiety disorders, PTSD, ADHD, depression, etc.,

 

If it was OCD then he would either throw over every time there was someone on first or be distraught to not throw over in those situations, or need to use some sort of internal coping mechanism to keep from doing so. At the most I imagine it is some sort of anxiety-related issue, i.e., he feels the pressure mounting more with someone on first. I just don't see OCD.

 

At the same time, I'm not downplaying your assessment, merely disagreeing. You certainly have a window into that worldview that I do not, so I can't trump you there.

 

I think the more plausable explanation--since I haven't heard anything about him having OCD-type-symptoms in other areas of his life--is that he has bad peripheral vision and supreme confidence in his pickoff move. He DOES have a great pickoff move, very quick. He probably thinks he can go to it time and time again to get guys off first. I think you're right that guys on first make him anxious and he wants to do something about it, and that the Sox catchers and coaches worry about it.

[a700hitter]

Last time he played there' date=' Cabrera was no worse in LF than Bay. Believe me, you can hide his glove.[/quote']Losing Bay and replacing him with Cabrera would not be much of an upgrade. Plus, they would be taking on Cabrera's diva baggage. IMO, any upgrade will involve getting a !B and moving Youkilis to 3B or getting a 3B. Cabrera's glove cannot be hidden in the IF and he is a terrible OF, possibly worse than Bay.

[BSN07]

Losing Bay and replacing him with Cabrera would not be much of an upgrade. Plus' date=' they would be taking on Cabrera's diva baggage. IMO, any upgrade will involve getting a !B and moving Youkilis to 3B or getting a 3B. Cabrera's glove cannot be hidden in the IF and he is a terrible OF, possibly worse than Bay.[/quote']

 

Bay = Miggy glove

 

Miggy>>> Bay's bat

 

How is this not an upgrade over Bay?

[BSN07]

I generally know what to look for, and I don't think he has OCD. I am a mental health professional who works with lots of people with OCD, other anxiety disorders, PTSD, ADHD, depression, etc.,

 

If it was OCD then he would either throw over every time there was someone on first or be distraught to not throw over in those situations, or need to use some sort of internal coping mechanism to keep from doing so. At the most I imagine it is some sort of anxiety-related issue, i.e., he feels the pressure mounting more with someone on first. I just don't see OCD.

 

At the same time, I'm not downplaying your assessment, merely disagreeing. You certainly have a window into that worldview that I do not, so I can't trump you there.

 

I think the more plausable explanation--since I haven't heard anything about him having OCD-type-symptoms in other areas of his life--is that he has bad peripheral vision and supreme confidence in his pickoff move. He DOES have a great pickoff move, very quick. He probably thinks he can go to it time and time again to get guys off first. I think you're right that guys on first make him anxious and he wants to do something about it, and that the Sox catchers and coaches worry about it.

 

I'm fine with that, we agree on most things, not surprising that we finally found something that we have different opinions about. I appreciate you acknowledging the fact I have a certain view that some do not though.

[a700hitter]

Bay = Miggy glove

 

Miggy>>> Bay's bat

 

How is this not an upgrade over Bay?

It's not the kind of upgrade that the Red Sox lineup needs to compete with the Yankees, which is Bay + Gonzalez/Cabrera. The incremental improvement between Bay and Cabrera would not be worth the top prospects that would have to be sacrificed to get Cabrera.

[BSN07]

It's not the kind of upgrade that the Red Sox lineup needs to compete with the Yankees' date=' which is Bay + Gonzalez/Cabrera. The incremental improvement between Bay and Cabrera would not be worth the top prospects that would have to be sacrificed to get Cabrera.[/quote']

 

He's not replacing Bay.So we shouldn't even compare them really.

 

He will most likely play 1B, were he has improved recently to be at least average. For at least one season(if with the Red Sox). If he D was intolerable, then DH would likely be his landing spot in 2011, not LF.

[a700hitter]

He's not replacing Bay.So we shouldn't even compare them really.

 

He will most likely play 1B, were he has improved recently to be at least average. For at least one season(if with the Red Sox). If he D was intolerable, then DH would likely be his landing spot in 2011, not LF.

I don't disagree that they would be looking to add him to Bay, so why were you comparing him to Bay? Cabrera's fielding at 1B is horrendous. The whole IF will make more errors because of his suckiness. He will make the whole IF worse like Tex made the whole Yankee IF better. I want no no no part of this guy. He's a cancer and a defensive disaster.

[Gom]

If the Sox go balls to the wall' date=' you're basically giving the Yankees one or two of these next year without them breaking a sweat.[/b']

 

The Yankees already come in at the last minute as the highest bidder, even when the Red Sox bid 170 freakin' million U.S. dollars for some guy named Teixeira, the Yankees bid 180.

 

It must be tough to be Brian Cashman . . . anyway, the Yankees are always going to spend without breaking a sweat. Whether the Red Sox go balls to the wall this offseason or next.

None of us were there, so you can never really know what happened with negotiations. However, I do remember reading how Cashman polled his staff about whether they'd rather go after Manny short-term or Tex long-term, and Tex won by a slim margin. Remember, Manny was coming off a f***ing monster post-season, and we didn't know about the PED suspension to come. I think the Sox dragged it out, pussy-footed around, and let the Yankees in the game. The Sox f***ed up when Henry went down there, and had they been aggressive enough, they probably would have gotten him. I'll tell you this...the longer s*** drags out, the more the Yankees will probably get involved. It was probably the most expensive block in history, but one that gave them a championship.

 

The Yankees have a slew of bad contracts coming off the books, and at the perfect time. A downturn in the economy has helped them out as most of their high-end contracts are expiring, and they can get comparable players for less money. The Yankees shed Abreu and Giambi last year, Damon and Matsui this year...and none of the players are going to make what they made before. In the case of Damon and Matsui, they'll come back for less or the Yankees will replace their production for less money. It's a win for the Yankees. They can improve their team AND spend less money in payroll and luxury tax.

 

When teams complain about payroll, I can honestly understand their gripe. However, I am sorry when I say it loses a lot of steam when I read about how the Pirates turned a $14 million profit, and that the owner using this profit to help his struggling hotel/spa franchise. He ended up with 75 million from revenue sharing and the tax, and instead of using that $14 million profit, he put it in his pocket.

 

Kind of ********, isn't it?

 

Don't turn this into a Yankee payroll thing. Fine, we acknowledge it. However, don't you think it's ******** what the Pirates are doing? Cry in one hand, while pocketing the money in the other?

[arbitrary]

Funny, I work with people w/acute OCD; small world. The best to watch is Ray Allen's free throws; talk about "feeling right"

[Spudboy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/columns/story?columnist=gammons_peter&id=4685067

 

I found this article by Gammons pretty interesting.

[Lester82]

Somebody tell Gammons that it wouldn't matter if the red sox ownership "allowed theo" to bid to 180 on Teixeira. The Red Sox bid 170, the Yankees could always top the Sox bid. Boras always gives the Yankees the last word, because they can bid the highest.

 

Boras even said to the Red Sox that it would take a 200m offer if they wanted to have him in the final hours before Teixeira signed with his 1st choice, the Yankees.

[Dojji]

Boras said in so many words that some other team offered Teixeira more money than he accepted to play in New York.

 

Now I wonder who that team might have been.

 

Could people PLEASE drop the whole Teixeira nonsense? He's a Yankee, and no amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to unsign that contract.

[Lester82]

Agreed, alright.... On to something else!

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/11/24/2009-11-24_roy_halladay_yankees_sox.html

 

ROY HALLADAY

[Lester82]

Don't want to give up Buchholz, so even if that's a deal breaker, fine.

 

Only give up Buch in a deal for Felix... and Felix probably ain't getting dealt.

 

NY Daily News said Boston would like to wrap up a deal for Halladay by the the winter meetings. Hmmmm... and this was leaked, to a NY paper, methinks it was leaked by none other than the Toronto GM.

 

To get more of that NY-Sox bidding war leading up to the winter meetings. Just when Cashman is said to also be meeting soon with his ownership to set the 2010 budget (the Yankees and "budget" is still kinda funny to type, haha..)

[a700hitter]

Agreed, alright.... On to something else!

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/11/24/2009-11-24_roy_halladay_yankees_sox.html

 

ROY HALLADAY

Halladay would be a nice holiday gift.

[Lester82]

but really, anyone doubt the story was just something the Toronto g.m. leaked ?

[BSN07]

Halladay would be a nice holiday gift.

 

I'd rather keep Buchholz and get a Holliday present under my tree :joke:

 

but really' date=' anyone doubt the story was just something the Toronto g.m. leaked ?[/quote']

 

Well yeah. I'm sure he wants to have as many teams involved as possible. And this is a nice way of putting all teams on notice. Or maybe Toronto is the team that needs to get the deal done by the Winter Meetings(maybe Halladay said I'll only except a deal that is done before such and such date). And this is their way of masking the fact :dunno:

[example1]

I'd be okay with them dealing Buchholz for Halladay (assuming they can resign him) but adding Kelly seems like overpaying for one year and then $20m/yr.

 

The Red Sox have made big deals in the past around Thanksgiving, specifically Schilling and Beckett. Time to make a third, Theo.

 

Give TOR a 'take it or leave it' deal and a deadline and then move on. The article above assumes the Yankees will get the last chance, but I don't think the Sox should give them that chance. Buchholz is a better piece than anything the Yankees have to offer. He's a top of rotation starter and he's READY NOW.

[a700hitter]

Give TOR a 'take it or leave it' deal and a deadline and then move on.

They haven't done this in the past, so I don't expect that they will now. They tend to let things drag on.

[BSN07]

I'd be okay with them dealing Buchholz for Halladay (assuming they can resign him) but adding Kelly seems like overpaying for one year and then $20m/yr.

 

The Red Sox have made big deals in the past around Thanksgiving, specifically Schilling and Beckett. Time to make a third, Theo.

 

Give TOR a 'take it or leave it' deal and a deadline and then move on. The article above assumes the Yankees will get the last chance, but I don't think the Sox should give them that chance. Buchholz is a better piece than anything the Yankees have to offer. He's a top of rotation starter and he's READY NOW.

 

Exactly the reason not to deal him IMO.

[a700hitter]

Exactly the reason not to deal him IMO.

He's not ready to be a top of the rotation guy for us or any other contender. He's not a #1 or 2. At best, next season he could be a #3 by the end of the season. He's more likely a #4 for most of 2010.

[BSN07]

He's not ready to be a top of the rotation guy for us or any other contender. He's not a #1 or 2. At best' date=' next season he could be a #3 by the end of the season. He's more likely a #4 for most of 2010.[/quote']

 

Your short sightedness is blinding you again. Again all you care about is this year. Just like you did when you(and some others) were ready to pack Lester's bag's and drive him to the airport for Johan.

 

This is the same situation. You have to give up the young entering his prime SP for the one that is currently in his prime, but most likely in the latter half. And he will require a big multiple year extension to keep him around for his age 33+ years. It's not a Theo move IMO. This is the type of thing he will look in on to see if he can get a deal, but ultimately not get too involved.The only way they get Halladay is if Toronto will do it without Buchholz or Kelly.

 

The only pitcher/player's Buchholz will get traded for is Felix. With AG being a far 2nd.

[BoSox21]

I'd rather keep Buchholz and get a Holliday present under my tree :joke:

 

oh, well aren't you the sly pootz

[BSN07]

oh' date=' well aren't you the sly pootz[/quote']

 

Caught that did ya?

[a700hitter]

Your short sightedness is blinding you again. Again all you care about is this year. Just like you did when you(and some others) were ready to pack Lester's bag's and drive him to the airport for Johan.

 

This is the same situation. You have to give up the young entering his prime SP for the one that is currently in his prime, but most likely in the latter half. And he will require a big multiple year extension to keep him around for his age 33+ years. It's not a Theo move IMO. This is the type of thing he will look in on to see if he can get a deal, but ultimately not get too involved.The only way they get Halladay is if Toronto will do it without Buchholz or Kelly.

 

The only pitcher/player's Buchholz will get traded for is Felix. With AG being a far 2nd.

Did I say in any of my posts since the story broke that we should trade Buchholz for Halladay? No, I haven't. In fact, since there is only 1 year left on Halladay's contract, I am on record as saying that the Jays will not get anything close to Buchholz. However, Buchholz is not ready to be a #1 or #2 this season as Example claims.

 

As for Lester, my evaluation about him was that he was not ready in 2006, and he wasn't. He didn't turn a corner until Mid-May 2008. Before that he had poor command, walked too many hitters, and threw way too many pitchers. In Spring 2006, I said that he needed a couple of years of seasoning, and he did. Would I trade a pitcher who is not ready for the majors for a pitcher like Santana? Yes, I would do that every time. You think it would have been a bad move, because Johan got injured, but maybe Johan helps them win back to back titles in 2008. I'll trade a prospect any time to lock down a World Championship. That's my philosophy.

[example1]

Did I say in any of my posts since the story broke that we should trade Buchholz for Halladay? No' date=' I haven't. In fact, since there is only 1 year left on Halladay's contract, I am on record as saying that the Jays will not get anything close to Buchholz. However, Buchholz is not ready to be a #1 or #2 this season as Example claims.[/quote']

 

What # do you think he would be on Toronto?

 

I think the Jays probably could get Buchholz for Halladay and that this is the type of move that would ensure that he goes to the Sox and not someplace else. I just think that including a guy like Kelly would be too much. As you know (I'm sure we agree here) Halladay is an absolute beast. He would not only improve the rotation immediately, (because the Sox would have 3 bona-fide #1s) but he would also improve the bullpen because he has the uncanny ability to pitch deep into games. Between Lester, Beckett and Halliday the would be able to rest the middle-relievers 3/5 nights, which would be invaluable in a long season.

 

As for Lester, my evaluation about him was that he was not ready in 2006, and he wasn't. He didn't turn a corner until Mid-May 2008. Before that he had poor command, walked too many hitters, and threw way too many pitchers. In Spring 2006, I said that he needed a couple of years of seasoning, and he did. Would I trade a pitcher who is not ready for the majors for a pitcher like Santana? Yes, I would do that every time. You think it would have been a bad move, because Johan got injured, but maybe Johan helps them win back to back titles in 2008. I'll trade a prospect any time to lock down a World Championship. That's my philosophy.

 

Your evaluation about Lester was basically that because nobody can tell what he's going to become he should be moved before his stock drops. I looked up the quotes the other day, that's what you were saying. I could change the name "Lester" to "Buchholz" and it would be the same thing.

 

I just get the sense that you see all prospects as the same. It's like saying that all college football players are equally unlikely to have success at the NFL level. Sometimes the skills that players have just makes them obvious candidates to be great at the NFL level. Buchholz has dominated all levels of play and has had a number of very good starts on the MLB level.

 

Still, I think Halladay is good enough to send some highupside players for.

[BSN07]

Did I say in any of my posts since the story broke that we should trade Buchholz for Halladay? No, I haven't. In fact, since there is only 1 year left on Halladay's contract, I am on record as saying that the Jays will not get anything close to Buchholz. However, Buchholz is not ready to be a #1 or #2 this season as Example claims.

 

As for Lester, my evaluation about him was that he was not ready in 2006, and he wasn't. He didn't turn a corner until Mid-May 2008. Before that he had poor command, walked too many hitters, and threw way too many pitchers. In Spring 2006, I said that he needed a couple of years of seasoning, and he did. Would I trade a pitcher who is not ready for the majors for a pitcher like Santana? Yes, I would do that every time. You think it would have been a bad move, because Johan got injured, but maybe Johan helps them win back to back titles in 2008. I'll trade a prospect any time to lock down a World Championship. That's my philosophy.

 

I meant more your willingness to trade a player of Buchholz's status for one year/or more at a sizable extension of a player who is "established".

 

exp1 pretty much covered the Lester comparison.

[rician blast]

Take it with a grain of salt, of course (it's Gammons), but that would be the fastest move through the system that I can remember for a Sox pitcher under this ownership group. Who am I missing?

 

Craig Hansen?

[BSN07]

Craig Hansen?

 

Tazawa made it in one season.

[Dipre]

Craig Hansen?

 

And look how that turned out......