Mark Buehrle?

[a700hitter]

Yeah' date=' I'm getting that feeling. Manny and Ellsbury for Miguel Cabrera!!! I can dream. Leave me alone.[/quote']

What about Lester, Bucholz, Ellsbury and Youkilis for Miggy.

[CrespoBlows]

What about Lester' date=' Bucholz, Ellsbury and Youkilis for Miggy.[/quote']

 

They'd probably bite on the first three, which would be a good deal for both clubs.

[a700hitter]

They'd probably bite on the first three' date=' which would be a good deal for both clubs.[/quote']If that deal happened, I'd be so delirious that I'd walk the streets for days just smiling without eating, drinking or sleeping. I'd have to be slapped back to reality.

[CrespoBlows]

If that deal happened' date=' I'd be so delirious that I'd walk the streets for days just smiling without eating, drinking or sleeping. I'd have to be slapped back to reality.[/quote']

 

I'd probably be doing the same thing.

[Youk Of The Nation]

If the sox successfully deal for Cabrera I will drink my own pee.

 

Oh man, I hope they do. I dont care if they trade Manny, Youk, Lowell, Beckett, Dice-K, Okajima, and David f***ing Ortiz for Miguel Cabrera and a hot dog if it means knowing that you drank a Gatorade bottle of your own piss.

 

[riverside sluggers]

Name one person who expected Pedroia to hit .320 in the first half and for Okajima to be anything but a drinking buddy for Dice-K.

 

Come on.

 

Sorry to pick on you, but I just saw this now and you can't jump on a guy for that stuff.

 

Actually I said that he quickly wrote him off and said he was the 2nd coming of Cesar Crespo. No, no one expected him to hit .320 in the 1st half... but still he did take from a small sample size and predict that would be the type of hitter he would be. Hence he was wrong. Maybe its because Ive been a long time advocate for Pedroia

 

BTW I still laugh to remember posts from other posters in this thread back in April asking for a trade for Jorge Cantu to take over . All the while I said "I'll be sitting pretty when he starts producing ands becomes a fan favorite"

[ksushi]

What about Lester' date=' Bucholz, Ellsbury and Youkilis for Miggy.[/quote']

 

 

I honestly would not deal Bucholz for anyone not named Johan Santana.

[jacksonianmarch]

I honestly would not deal Bucholz for anyone not named Johan Santana.

 

Buchholz got high grades out of the futures game. I think they had him as the third most impressive pitcher in the game.

[jacksonianmarch]

Actually I said that he quickly wrote him off and said he was the 2nd coming of Cesar Crespo. No, no one expected him to hit .320 in the 1st half... but still he did take from a small sample size and predict that would be the type of hitter he would be. Hence he was wrong. Maybe its because Ive been a long time advocate for Pedroia

 

BTW I still laugh to remember posts from other posters in this thread back in April asking for a trade for Jorge Cantu to take over . All the while I said "I'll be sitting pretty when he starts producing ands becomes a fan favorite"

 

did I ever use the Crespo line? I dont remember that but wouldnt be surprised.

[TheKilo]

Actually I said that he quickly wrote him off and said he was the 2nd coming of Cesar Crespo. No, no one expected him to hit .320 in the 1st half... but still he did take from a small sample size and predict that would be the type of hitter he would be. Hence he was wrong. Maybe its because Ive been a long time advocate for Pedroia

 

BTW I still laugh to remember posts from other posters in this thread back in April asking for a trade for Jorge Cantu to take over . All the while I said "I'll be sitting pretty when he starts producing ands becomes a fan favorite"

 

Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back now.

[example1]

Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back now.

 

He deserves to pat himself on the back. there were so many people on this board who absolutely DESTROYED Theo and Co., because of their view that Pedroia was ready, despite his struggles at the end of the season last year.

 

There are a number of people on here who have no faith in scouts/coaches ability to judge good players when they see it--as if Moneyball's stressing of statistical performance over the "old guard of scouts" is the only thing that matters. What is confounding about that is that the front office uses the most advanced sabermetrical tools to evaluate players, and it forces coaches and scouts to abide by the principles of years and years of accumulated knowledge. The front office hires managers, coaches and scouts based on their philosophy of how to balance sabermetric principles with traditional scouting techniques. Of course, they are not alone in this as many of the top teams rely on principles explored by sabermetricians--OBP, BABIP, Runs Created, etc.,.

 

For me, I am pretty confident that the Red Sox staff know better than anyone on this board whether a player is good enough to play for this Sox team. That doesn't mean they are always right; they are often wrong. Riverside and others like him predicted that Pedroia would be good. Just about all of the evidence indicated that Pedroia would succeed, there wasn't a whole lot of evidence to the contrary. So if he ended up s***ing the bed people that were critical of him wouldn't even have based their criticism on any relevant evidence--except, perhaps on an end of the season call-up, or because of his size. Nothing that is really critical when evaluating a 2B.

 

Go ahead, Riverside, pat yourself on the back. There were a number of people here who were absolutely wrong and who were so assertive about it they deserved to get called out. It's all in the archives. You had pretty steadfast faith that Pedroia would be a very good player when others guessed--for some reason, against all evidence--that he wouldn't be good enough to start.

 

We will go through this discussion again this year when talking about Ellsbury. There are some players you want to have on your team while they are in their atheletic prime: Ellsbury is one of those guys.

 

For what it's worth, Ellsbury catches that ball that lost the game (Papelbon vs. Rodriguez) a few nights ago. Crisp missed by a foot making an unbelievable play, ellsbury gets it.

[Khan]

"The day the fish pay Manny's contract is the day I remove my testicles, toss them in a blender, mix them with protein shake mix, and take a sip."

 

There is a nice thought.

[TheKilo]

He deserves to pat himself on the back. there were so many people on this board who absolutely DESTROYED Theo and Co.' date=' because of their view that Pedroia was ready, despite his struggles at the end of the season last year.[/quote']

 

No, he really doesn't. Anyone who had patience could see Pedroia's track record indicated that all he needed was time before he made the necessary adjustments and become an effective baseball player. he did it at every level. Why was it such a surprise that he did it in the majors?

 

BTW, Theo had an awful year last year. As it stands right now he's 50% for the last offseason, and that's just because Okajima has been amazing.

 

There are a number of people on here who have no faith in scouts/coaches ability to judge good players when they see it--as if Moneyball's stressing of statistical performance over the "old guard of scouts" is the only thing that matters. What is confounding about that is that the front office uses the most advanced sabermetrical tools to evaluate players, and it forces coaches and scouts to abide by the principles of years and years of accumulated knowledge. The front office hires managers, coaches and scouts based on their philosophy of how to balance sabermetric principles with traditional scouting techniques. Of course, they are not alone in this as many of the top teams rely on principles explored by sabermetricians--OBP, BABIP, Runs Created, etc.,.

 

So because Theo uses sabermetrics he's immune to criticism? What exactly are you trying to say here? Besides, stats are the best way to measure a player's performance.

 

For me, I am pretty confident that the Red Sox staff know better than anyone on this board whether a player is good enough to play for this Sox team. That doesn't mean they are always right; they are often wrong. Riverside and others like him predicted that Pedroia would be good. Just about all of the evidence indicated that Pedroia would succeed, there wasn't a whole lot of evidence to the contrary. So if he ended up s***ing the bed people that were critical of him wouldn't even have based their criticism on any relevant evidence--except, perhaps on an end of the season call-up, or because of his size. Nothing that is really critical when evaluating a 2B.

 

Agreed.

 

That doesn't mean he, or the FO, is immune to criticism. They may have advanced scouting reports but they have made some terrible mistakes.

 

Go ahead, Riverside, pat yourself on the back. There were a number of people here who were absolutely wrong and who were so assertive about it they deserved to get called out. It's all in the archives. You had pretty steadfast faith that Pedroia would be a very good player when others guessed--for some reason, against all evidence--that he wouldn't be good enough to start.

 

Again, you completely misconstrue the point because like CB said, he does what he accuses Jacko of. He sees the world in rose colored glasses. The Yankee prospects are garbage but the Sox's are gold.

 

We will go through this discussion again this year when talking about Ellsbury. There are some players you want to have on your team while they are in their atheletic prime: Ellsbury is one of those guys.

 

For what it's worth, Ellsbury catches that ball that lost the game (Papelbon vs. Rodriguez) a few nights ago. Crisp missed by a foot making an unbelievable play, ellsbury gets it.

 

I honestly don't even know how you can say that, seeing as Coco has played arguably the best CF in the majors this year. How can you say definitively that Ellsbury, a rookie who had never played in Comerica before, gets even that good a read off the bat in a park he's unfamiliar with?

 

I say if Coco doesn't make that catch, no one on the Sox does.

[example1]

No' date=' he really doesn't. Anyone who had patience could see Pedroia's track record indicated that all he needed was time before he made the necessary adjustments and become an effective baseball player. he did it at every level. Why was it such a surprise that he did it in the majors? [/quote']

 

It wasn't a surprise, except that there were many people who argued against it. People who are certainly intelligent enough to have looked at his track record and still didn't believe it. Largely--I argue--out of a desire to naysay whatever the front office does whenever there is a lapse in the news or when the team isn't winning every day. That may not have been you, but I think it is more than fair for someone to point out that they were right when a number of people here were so adimant against it. Not a big deal, but it seems just.

 

BTW, Theo had an awful year last year. As it stands right now he's 50% for the last offseason, and that's just because Okajima has been amazing.

 

The quesiton is whether the team he puts out there is competitive or not. That's the best any front office can do. Matsuzaka was such a big signing. Without Daisuke we're looking at a rotation of Beckett and Wakefield and tavarez and two rookies. Just like last year. Also, we're likely looking at him in NY, as it turns out playing for the Mets, but Theo's goal was to blow the Yankees out of the water and that's what he did. If Matsuzaka is a Yankee right now all of the woe about their pitching staff would have been lessened, the entire dynamic in NY would be different. Who knows what could have happened? :dunno: All I know is that the Sox are in 1st place, the Yankees are a ways behind. I guess he had a bad last year...

 

 

So because Theo uses sabermetrics he's immune to criticism? What exactly are you trying to say here? Besides, stats are the best way to measure a player's performance.

 

So if they are using certain statistics to determine which player to buy, or which player to use in certain situations, etc., and you agree on the statistics they are using to make that determination (i.e., you agree which statistics should be valuable), then isn't criticism kind of like blaming a computer for faulty output? They essentially use a formula based on proven statistical correlations with winning, and acquire their players that way.

 

I wouldn't say that he's (they) immune to criticism, but personally I think that criticism is pretty pointless if you agree with the philosophy and most of how it is carried out given the players who are available, the various agents involved, the players asking price, the trade demands of other teams, revenue sharing, luxary tax caps, draft rules, etc., Obviously Theo and Co. don't perform in a vacuum, so it is impossible to expect perfection; they make decisions based on a scientific understanding of baseball, which does not guranatee victory.

 

Do you critique a doctor who isn't able to effectively treat every cancer patient, but who tries nonetheless using his best available knowledge?

 

Theo and his co-hort are pretty widely seen as some of the most advanced and savvy front offices in baseball. They spend a lot of money and win a lot of games in an extremely competitive league. They have averaged something like 92 wins a season over the past 4 years, and are in pace to raise that average this year. All that at a time when their biggest rival is loaded with all-stars from top to bottom and when the rivalry is at its peak over a long span. During that span they won a World series and made the playoffs 3 times.

 

I honestly don't even know how you can say that, seeing as Coco has played arguably the best CF in the majors this year. How can you say definitively that Ellsbury, a rookie who had never played in Comerica before, gets even that good a read off the bat in a park he's unfamiliar with?

 

Jacoby Ellsbury is faster than Crisp and is a lifelong CF who has been called an amazing fielder at every level. Crisp's best defensive position--until this season--was LF. He has historically been a very average CF. This year he is obviously very good.

 

I say if Coco doesn't make that catch, no one on the Sox does.

 

Are you saying that Coco Crisp is the fastest outfielder in the Sox system?

[a700hitter]

Jacoby Ellsbury is faster than Crisp and is a lifelong CF who has been called an amazing fielder at every level. Crisp's best defensive position--until this season--was LF. He has historically been a very average CF. This year he is obviously very good.

Is this fact or opinion, because Crisp is pretty damn fast, and to the naked eye in ST, I could not tell who was faster. It's damn close though I'll tell you that.

[example1]

Is this fact or opinion' date=' because Crisp is pretty damn fast, and to the naked eye in ST, I could not tell who was faster. It's damn close though I'll tell you that.[/quote']

 

I suppose it is a combination of opinion, observation and nasty rumor.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury was timed at 4.2 in the 40 in college. That's faster than Michael Vick or Randy Moss, supposedly. Top-level NFL speed. His time to first is like Ichiro, who is clearly faster than Crisp. Ichiro is like a gazelle and is built for speed.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/07/03/fast_becoming_a_real_favorite/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_yard_dash

[a700hitter]

I suppose it is a combination of opinion, observation and nasty rumor.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury was timed at 4.2 in the 40 in college. That's faster than Michael Vick or Randy Moss, supposedly. Top-level NFL speed. His time to first is like Ichiro, who is clearly faster than Crisp. Ichiro is like a gazelle and is built for speed.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/07/03/fast_becoming_a_real_favorite/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_yard_dash

The article states that Crisp also has been timed in the 40 at 4.2, so I don't know how you or anyone else could declare that Ellsbury is the fastest Red Sox player until/if Crisp gets traded.

[redsoxrules]

I suppose it is a combination of opinion, observation and nasty rumor.

 

 

no crisp was clocked at 4.2 in the 40 as well before

[example1]

The article states that Crisp also has been timed in the 40 at 4.2' date=' so I don't know how you or anyone else could declare that Ellsbury is the fastest Red Sox player until/if Crisp gets traded.[/quote']

 

no crisp was clocked at 4.2 in the 40 as well before

 

What I was in the middle of writing as you responded--as is my tendency to respond to my own posts--was that while a great 40 speed indicates great speed, it doesn't represent the ability to run bases or field. the 40 is a relatively crummy measurement of speed when it comes to baseball. Home to first or First to Third would be better measurements, and those numbers don't exist as far as I know.

 

This whole discussion started over my comment that Ellsbury would have caught that ball the other day, based on a combination of better speed (opinion based on sb numbers, scouting reports, my own eyes) and his reputation for taking good routes to balls and getting great jumps in CF. Like I said, Crisp doesn't have the same reputation. We all saw (and MANY complained) Crisp climbing the wall last year while the ball bounced on the warning track. He doesn't always take good routes to balls and doesn't always get great jumps. He makes up for that with his speed, but the elite CF will get great jumps and have great speed.

[a700hitter]

What I was in the middle of writing as you responded--as is my tendency to respond to my own posts--was that while a great 40 speed indicates great speed, it doesn't represent the ability to run bases or field. the 40 is a relatively crummy measurement of speed when it comes to baseball. Home to first or First to Third would be better measurements, and those numbers don't exist as far as I know.

 

This whole discussion started over my comment that Ellsbury would have caught that ball the other day, based on a combination of better speed (opinion based on sb numbers, scouting reports, my own eyes) and his reputation for taking good routes to balls and getting great jumps in CF. Like I said, Crisp doesn't have the same reputation. We all saw (and MANY complained) Crisp climbing the wall last year while the ball bounced on the warning track. He doesn't always take good routes to balls and doesn't always get great jumps. He makes up for that with his speed, but the elite CF will get great jumps and have great speed.

I have been critical of the jumps that Crisp gets on ball, but I haven't seen him in person since April. I have been hearing that he has improved in this aspect. With regard to raw speed, I've seen them both leg out triples in person, and I can't see much of a difference. They are both damn fast.

[redsoxrules]

and also its impossible to say that ellsbury would have caught that ball , for all we know if he was playing he could have been playing 10 feet more shallow than crisp ,hence he dosent even come close to catching the ball . theres no dam way that ellsbury would have been positioned the same place as crisp was .

[example1]

I have been critical of the jumps that Crisp gets on ball' date=' but I haven't seen him in person since April. I have been hearing that he has improved in this aspect. With regard to raw speed, I've seen them both leg out triples in person, and I can't see much of a difference. They are both damn fast.[/quote']

 

This is true, and I see your point. It is very hard to see the difference in speed when guys do different things on the field at different times. Ellsbury has a better minor league SB% than Crisp (80 to 75) and has the reputation for being an elite CF defensively. He also has substantially more SBs per game played, which is more likely influenced by his ability to get on base.

 

They are both damn fast. Given that I would probably run a 15.00 40 that is easy for me to say.

[example1]

and also its impossible to say that ellsbury would have caught that ball ' date=' for all we know if he was playing he could have been playing 10 feet more shallow than crisp ,hence he dosent even come close to catching the ball . theres no dam way that ellsbury would have been positioned the same place as crisp was .[/quote']

 

It isn't impossible to say it. I said it. You might think it isn't possibly to say as true and I'll give you that. Obviously, it was an opinion since we cannot go back in time and prove it.

 

I saw Ellsbury get two infield hits in his sort time up, score from 2nd on a passed-ball, and steal a base. It is a VERY small sample size, but combined with the scouting reports and my extensive viewing of Crisp I think Ellsbury is faster. We have all had the opportunity to watch crisp hit weak groundballs and choppers in the infield. does he turn every one of the into a bang-bang play at 1st? Ellsbury comes damn close. So does Ichiro.

 

I see Crisp as more akin to Lugo in speed than the fastest guys in the league. A VERY fast human but not 3 standard deviations above the MLB average.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Interesting..

 

I talked to a guy on AIM today who works with stats in the White Sox front office...

 

He said Theo originally offered Buchholz, Ellsbury and Bowden for Beurhle to keep him away from new york...Williams held off thinking he could get more for Beurhle from the mets or yanks, and almost did, as the mets had pelfrey and milledge on the table...but they pulled out, and the yanks wouldnt budge, so theo backed out...

 

take that for what it's worth...I think it's kind of scary that Theo wasn't that protective of these guys.

 

he also said the red sox have been using a new formula this year called RPP (run producing power) and so far it goes like this...

 

ortiz 481, manny 463, drew 407, youkilis 403, lowell 396, hinske 389, wily mo 372, pedroia 366, varitek 357, crisp 337, lugo 328, alex cora 318...

[schillingouttheks]

I think that guy's full of it. You talked to him on AIM? How do you know he's even reliable?

 

Offering Buchholz, Bowden, and Ellsbury for Buehrle goes against this FO's philosophy in so many ways that it's unthinkable to rationally assume that this is/was true.

 

If Theo did that, the lynching mob would be out for his ass even if this team went onto win the WS after his lynching. Buehrle can be had for A LOT less.

[riverside sluggers]

Wait...

 

Sox offered Bucholz (baseball's best pitching prospect), Ellsbury, Bowden? I would drive down to Boston to become part of the mob on Yawkey Way if Theo ever considered doing such a thing

 

Williams held off because he could get more? And the Mets offer of Pelfrey and Milledge was a better offer than that blockbuster trio the Sox would give away?

 

Id def say take it with a grain of salt... no offense but who's to say that guy wasnt busting your balls?

[KeepTheFaith1229]

no...this guy's legit. I shouldn't post his name on here though.

 

the mets offer wasnt better but it was close...they wouldnt budge any farther and neither would nyy, so theo pulled out

 

you dont have to believe it, but it's legit.

[schillingouttheks]

I just don't believe this one bit. The fact that Kenny Williams rejected that offer in the first place is what kills the credibility. If I were Kenny Williams, I would have driven Buehrle to the airport myself.

 

I hope you told this guy that you were talking to that Williams is a f***ing idiot if this is true.

[example1]

no...this guy's legit. I shouldn't post his name on here though.

 

the mets offer wasnt better but it was close...they wouldnt budge any farther and neither would nyy, so theo pulled out

 

you dont have to believe it, but it's legit.

 

The guy might be legit, but the rumor isn't. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY they offered that much. Absolutely no way.

 

The run statistics thing sounds interesting though, can you elaborate or get this guy to elaborate?

[riverside sluggers]

I just don't believe this one bit. The fact that Kenny Williams rejected that offer in the first place is what kills the credibility. If I were Kenny Williams, I would have driven Buehrle to the airport myself.

 

I hope you told this guy that you were talking to that Williams is a f***ing idiot if this is true.

 

Really now, Williams would reject the best pitching prospect who is basically on the doorstep of the majors, solid center field prospect that can ignite the lineup, and another good pitching prospect with 2/3 potential?