Mark Buehrle?

[riverside sluggers]

if the sox were willing to throw Lester and Ells their way' date=' you better believe the White Sox would allow a 72hour window.[/quote']

 

Yes teh White sox would allow it, but again who says if he will submit to it. The Sox cant force him to sign an extension if he doesnt want to. The 4 years/$56 million was nothing more than a hometown discount offered to the White Sox. In this day and age, Buehrle could very well get close to Zito money

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes teh White sox would allow it' date=' but again who says if [b']he[/b] will submit to it. The Sox cant force him to sign an extension if he doesnt want to. The 4 years/$56 million was nothing more than a hometown discount offered to the White Sox. In this day and age, Buehrle could very well get close to Zito money

 

Right, but you have to look at what you have before you can consider the deal. Buerhle is a great pitcher. A great one. The guy was the ace on a world championship team. Has the same amt of wins as Zito had at this juncture and he has another half season to go. Yet Buerhle has a ton better command and a deeper arsenal. Buerhle is a top tier guy. So is DMats. So is Beckett. You put those three in a rotation in their mid to late 20s and have them inked for another 5 yrs or so, and you can put a serious hurting on the rest of the majors. Add Buchholz who looks really solid at this point as your 5 next yr and maybe Bowden down the line and you could have a very young, strong, deep starting 5. That is how you built this huge lead. Your hitting has been off and on. But your pen and your rotation were solid early while ours disintegrated. With Okaji and Paps in the back of the pen, you have a young core out there and if the rotation gets sured up with another young ace, you guys can dominate for at least another half decade.

 

I know the question is, IF he signs. You throw enough cash his way and he will. Yeah, it isnt the cheap way to go, but cmon, this is Boston. They are making money hand over fist. And if they were ready to spend 70 mil on broke down drew or 40 mil on Mendoza Lugo, dont you think it would be wise to spend 15 mil a season on a guy who is as dependable as they come, is left handed and can lead a rotation?

[riverside sluggers]

Whoah... Im not saying the Sox shouldnt sign Buehrle. If you have seen my previous posts, Im all for the Sox acquiring him. You dont have to put down everything that I know about this team, what it would be to have him, etc. The point I have been trying to make is that I only want the Sox to give up an Ellsbury for him if they are able to sign him to an extension

 

Also its easier said than done that they could lock him up for $15 million a year. Buehrle and his agent offered the White Sox a hometown discount of $14 million a year. As I said also in the days and age, Buehrle could get close to Zito type money if he were to hit free agency

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

if the sox were willing to throw Lester and Ells their way' date=' you better believe the White Sox would allow a 72hour window.[/quote']

 

Why would the Red Sox trade Jon Lester for Mark Buehrle? Both left handed pitchers but one is much younger than the other. Not to mention Lester has some real good stuff to his arsenal. What is it....because Lester had some rough starts at AAA nobody thinks the kid will be good anymore? Anybody who thinks the Red Sox would trade Lester for an older lefty with less velocity is kinda foolish.

 

...AND Jacoby Ellsbury....thats just crazy. Thats just doing the White Sox a favor if you ask me.

[jacksonianmarch]

Why would the Red Sox trade Jon Lester for Mark Buehrle? Both left handed pitchers but one is much younger than the other. Not to mention Lester has some real good stuff to his arsenal. What is it....because Lester had some rough starts at AAA nobody thinks the kid will be good anymore? Anybody who thinks the Red Sox would trade Lester for an older lefty with less velocity is kinda foolish.

 

...AND Jacoby Ellsbury....thats just crazy. Thats just doing the White Sox a favor if you ask me.

 

Buerhle is at the early end of his prime and is an ace. Buerhle is what you would want Lester to become and is still young enough to be around and dominant for a long period of time. Take off the glasses son. Buerhle was the ace of a world championship team. His resume is much longer and he is likely much better than Lester will become.

[ORS]

Buehrle is still young relative to the league, and let's be honest here, we're all hoping Lester can turn into a pitcher as good as Buehrle has been. It will probably happen, but why not remove the doubt and get the real thing? And Coco is finally showing us the game we thought we were getting. He won't OBP as high as Ellsbury probably will, but he'll hit for much more power. They have a looming redundancy in CF. You trade off redundancy to make up for other gaps, and with Schilling being uncertain, Wake being Jeckyl and Hyde, and Tavarez, there is a gap in the rotation.

 

Now, I think in order to give up Lester and Ellsbury, they need to hammer out an extension, because that's too much talent for a 3-month rental. But if they can work one out in a 72-hour window, that's a good move, IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

Buehrle is still young relative to the league, and let's be honest here, we're all hoping Lester can turn into a pitcher as good as Buehrle has been. It will probably happen, but why not remove the doubt and get the real thing? And Coco is finally showing us the game we thought we were getting. He won't OBP as high as Ellsbury probably will, but he'll hit for much more power. They have a looming redundancy in CF. You trade off redundancy to make up for other gaps, and with Schilling being uncertain, Wake being Jeckyl and Hyde, and Tavarez, there is a gap in the rotation.

 

Now, I think in order to give up Lester and Ellsbury, they need to hammer out an extension, because that's too much talent for a 3-month rental. But if they can work one out in a 72-hour window, that's a good move, IMO.

 

Right on ORS.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Buehrle is still young relative to the league, and let's be honest here, we're all hoping Lester can turn into a pitcher as good as Buehrle has been. It will probably happen, but why not remove the doubt and get the real thing? And Coco is finally showing us the game we thought we were getting. He won't OBP as high as Ellsbury probably will, but he'll hit for much more power. They have a looming redundancy in CF. You trade off redundancy to make up for other gaps, and with Schilling being uncertain, Wake being Jeckyl and Hyde, and Tavarez, there is a gap in the rotation.

 

Now, I think in order to give up Lester and Ellsbury, they need to hammer out an extension, because that's too much talent for a 3-month rental. But if they can work one out in a 72-hour window, that's a good move, IMO.

 

I agree with most of what you say except for the power between Ellsbury and Crisp. I know Ellsbury hasn't hit for any power to speak of at this point but there is still reason to believe he can grow into a player with more power. After all he is only 23 years old. Right now Coco Crisp is hot and looks great but even now I don't think he looks that much better than Ellsbury. Both have great speed, play strong defense, and bring a good attitude. But if I had my choice I would want Jacoby Ellsbury for the next 10 years.

 

As far as Buehrle vs. Lester....nobody is going to confuse the two at this point and yes Mark Buehrle has had an excellent career but he's had lots of innings piled up thus far. He did win a championship and I think he is excellent. However, I have not seen Mark Buehrle mention ONCE that he has a desire to play in Boston. In fact I've seen him say he wants to test free agency and has made comments about wanting to play in St. Louis. Not only that but he is an icon in Chicago. To get a contract agreed upon between the Red Sox and Buehrle there would have to be a no-trade clause just like Chicago is dealing with. Now maybe I'm wrong but don't the Red Sox have strong issues with a no-trade clause. If thats the case than this whole conversation is a waste of time.

[jacksonianmarch]

Why should he mention a desire to play in Boston? And who gives a rats ass if a player has a desire to play somewhere.

 

Here are the points to hammer home.

 

Buehrle> Lester and Ellsbury

 

This is absolutely true right now and is likely true for all time unless you think both are going to reach their potential. And the word potential is used a lot, yet 90% of players never reach it. Buehrle is a young ace who is left handed, pitches fast, and throws strikes. Lester is a kid recovering from cancer who has had questionable control and has shown limited ability to consistently throw strikes to better than your average MiLB hitters. Ellsbury is a kid who has a nice eye and makes good contact, but may have a ceiling of a Juan Pierre and most likely will be a powerless Mark Kotsay. They both may reach the potential and be perenial allstars. But which group, Ells and Lester, or Buerhle will most likely help the sox more. Answer: Buerhle

 

Also, we all agree that a window would have to be agreed to. If there is a window, who gives a rats ass where he wishes to play. If he signs the contract, then he is showing he wishes to play there. if he doesnt, this entire conversation is moot.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Why should he mention a desire to play in Boston? And who gives a rats ass if a player has a desire to play somewhere.

 

Here are the points to hammer home.

 

Buehrle> Lester and Ellsbury

 

This is absolutely true right now and is likely true for all time unless you think both are going to reach their potential. And the word potential is used a lot, yet 90% of players never reach it. Buehrle is a young ace who is left handed, pitches fast, and throws strikes. Lester is a kid recovering from cancer who has had questionable control and has shown limited ability to consistently throw strikes to better than your average MiLB hitters. Ellsbury is a kid who has a nice eye and makes good contact, but may have a ceiling of a Juan Pierre and most likely will be a powerless Mark Kotsay. They both may reach the potential and be perenial allstars. But which group, Ells and Lester, or Buerhle will most likely help the sox more. Answer: Buerhle

 

Also, we all agree that a window would have to be agreed to. If there is a window, who gives a rats ass where he wishes to play. If he signs the contract, then he is showing he wishes to play there. if he doesnt, this entire conversation is moot.

 

No-trade clause = no deal with the Red Sox.

 

So far I'm very happy with the players who have come through the Red Sox farm system. You mentioned quite a few negatives toward Jon Lester yet he has still managed to post good numbers at all levels. That while still being pretty young and dealing with Cancer.

 

But you are right....the Red Sox are just breeding a Juan Pierre and a lefty starter who can't get anybody out....that will only be on there good days.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I just wanted to add the fact there is a huge adjustment period for pitchers when changing teams. In fact there is a adjustment period for every player who makes a jump to a new team.

 

Mark Buehrle (as good as he is) has played in Chicago his whole career. Anyone who thinks he would come to Boston and just roll over everyone as he is doing in Chicago may realize a sad truth.

 

New team, new coaches, new stadium, new style of living (especially in Boston), new catcher, new philosphy, new travel plans....a lot of these things we don't think about but at the midpoint of a season they are very important. Baseball is so much about confidence and comfort. You move someone like Mark Buehrle who is very familiar with his surroundings and into the playoff race with the Red Sox I have a hard time seeing him continue his success this season.

 

Out of curiosity can anyone think of a starting pitcher that changed teams mid-way through a season and became a large factor in a teams success toward a championship?

[riverside sluggers]

Last year, Jeff Weaver

 

So Sox should just stand pat for the next month with a rotation of Beckett, Dice-K, Wakefield, Tavarez, Gabbard? And thats if Schilling can come back from the DL with ease

[a700hitter]

Getting Buehrle for prospects and an extension on his contract is a no-brainer. Period. He'd be a major building block to a solid starting rotation in 2008 and beyond, plus we need him this year in case Schilling doesn't return to form.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Last year, Jeff Weaver

 

So Sox should just stand pat for the next month with a rotation of Beckett, Dice-K, Wakefield, Tavarez, Gabbard? And thats if Schilling can come back from the DL with ease

 

Yes, or give Jon Lester a shot to make an impact. Perhaps in a month of two they want to give Clay Buchholz a spot start and see how he does. My guess is Curt Schilling deffinitly comes back and does fine (not like he's been out for a season or anything). Wakefield, Tavarez, and Gabbard may all be .500 pitchers but with Dice K and Beckett looking to be 20 game winners or close to....I see no reason to make an extreme move. If all goes to plan and this team makes the playoffs I like our chances. Throwing Dice K and Beckett in game 1 and game 2 with Schilling jumping in game 3....thats pretty awesome. If they really want to make a trade I would add a righty setup man to relieve pressure from Okajima (Delcarmen looks good now but I'm not sold completely). I would also move Wily Mo who serves no purpose to this team.

[a700hitter]

Yes' date=' or give Jon Lester a shot to make an impact. Perhaps in a month of two they want to give Clay Buchholz a spot start and see how he does. My guess is Curt Schilling deffinitly comes back and does fine (not like he's been out for a season or anything). Wakefield, Tavarez, and Gabbard may all be .500 pitchers but with Dice K and Beckett looking to be 20 game winners or close to....I see no reason to make an extreme move. If all goes to plan and this team makes the playoffs I like our chances. Throwing Dice K and Beckett in game 1 and game 2 with Schilling jumping in game 3....thats pretty awesome. If they really want to make a trade I would add a righty setup man to relieve pressure from Okajima (Delcarmen looks good now but I'm not sold completely). I would also move Wily Mo who serves no purpose to this team.[/quote']There's not enough time to see if Lester can have consistent success at the ML level. We are two weeks from the trading deadline. If they bring him up immediately, he'd only get two starts. That's not enough to know if he can be relied upon the rest of the way. If the FO wanted Lester to be part of the rotation, they should have brought him up instead of Gabbard.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

There's not enough time to see if Lester can have consistent success at the ML level. We are two weeks from the trading deadline. If they bring him up immediately' date=' he'd only get two starts. That's not enough to know if he can be relied upon the rest of the way. If the FO wanted Lester to be part of the rotation, they should have brought him up instead of Gabbard.[/quote']

 

So I guess my next question is whats wrong with Kason Gabbard. Nobody seem to like this guy but he has held his own. He isn't Dice-K or Josh Beckett but he can certainly hold his own. His record is 2-0 and his numbers are around the same as Tim Wakefield and Julian Tavarez. There are options on this team and if they are looking to add something I wouldn't go all out and trade away future components.

 

If the Red Sox made a move based on how much time they have to see a pitcher within a two week span they may be setting up for a disaster and making a decision based on emotion and not being smart. They don't have to rely on Jon Lester and thats a good thing because its less pressure on the kid.

[a700hitter]

So I guess my next question is whats wrong with Kason Gabbard. Nobody seem to like this guy but he has held his own. He isn't Dice-K or Josh Beckett but he can certainly hold his own. His record is 2-0 and his numbers are around the same as Tim Wakefield and Julian Tavarez. There are options on this team and if they are looking to add something I wouldn't go all out and trade away future components.

 

If the Red Sox made a move based on how much time they have to see a pitcher within a two week span they may be setting up for a disaster and making a decision based on emotion and not being smart. They don't have to rely on Jon Lester and thats a good thing because its less pressure on the kid.

I've seen nothing special from Gabbard thus far. He hasn't been awful. You don't want to build a playoff team around guys that are not awful. He's got two more starts before the trading deadline to show that he can be consistent. Let's not kid ourselves here. For all the moves the FO made in the off season and all the money it spent, this year's team has the exact same record up to this point that the 2006 team had. Most people felt pretty good at this point last year, and we all know how that ended. We feel even better this year because the rest of the division is playing under .500 ball. At this time last year we had Lester in the rotation and he wasn't awful either and we had musical chairs in the 5th slot while we were waiting for guys to come off the DL. With Schilling on the DL, a rookie and Tavarez taking up two rotation spots, a thin bullpen, and the same record as last year, this year's team is not in a very different position than it was last year. This year's team needs reinforcements. I said it last year and I believe it to be true this year. The FO will be making a mistake if they sit on their hands again this year. This year's team may survive to get into the playoffs, but in its current state, they be ousted in the first round.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I've seen nothing special from Gabbard thus far. He hasn't been awful. You don't want to build a playoff team around guys that are not awful. He's got two more starts before the trading deadline to show that he can be consistent. Let's not kid ourselves here. For all the moves the FO made in the off season and all the money it spent' date=' this year's team has the exact same record up to this point that the 2006 team had. Most people felt pretty good at this point last year, and we all know how that ended. We feel even better this year because the rest of the division is playing under .500 ball. At this time last year we had Lester in the rotation and he wasn't awful either and we had musical chairs in the 5th slot while we were waiting for guys to come off the DL. With Schilling on the DL, a rookie and Tavarez taking up two rotation spots, a thin bullpen, and the same record as last year, this year's team is not in a very different position than it was last year. This year's team needs reinforcements. I said it last year and I believe it to be true this year. The FO will be making a mistake if they sit on their hands again this year. This year's team may survive to get into the playoffs, but in its current state, they be ousted in the first round.[/quote']

 

The bullpen is MUCH improved compared to the team last year. This season we have more relievers to turn to than just Papelbon. Last season we were praying Mike Timlin could help fill the void between the starter and Papelbon and that didn't happen.

 

Josh Beckett was not the same pitcher he was last season and Dice K is better than anything we had this time last year in the rotation. Kevin Youkilis is an improvement over himself and Dustin Pedroia looks great compared to the slow Mark Loretta. Trot Nixon was all over the injury list last year and Coco Crisp was pathetic. Sometimes I think we make too many moves rather than too few. I like our chances in the playoffs more this season with Josh Beckett and Dice K leading the way with Okajima and Papelbon drastically shortening a game. Add one more stopper to the bullpen and its now a 6 inning game. Tavarez, Wakefield, Gabbard, Schilling, Lester, whoever can all make it through 6 innings. I think its easier to add bullpen components without sacrificing too much. At least thats what I would do but I think I'm alone with this plan.

[a700hitter]

The bullpen is MUCH improved compared to the team last year. This season we have more relievers to turn to than just Papelbon. Last season we were praying Mike Timlin could help fill the void between the starter and Papelbon and that didn't happen.

 

Josh Beckett was not the same pitcher he was last season and Dice K is better than anything we had this time last year in the rotation. Kevin Youkilis is an improvement over himself and Dustin Pedroia looks great compared to the slow Mark Loretta. Trot Nixon was all over the injury list last year and Coco Crisp was pathetic. Sometimes I think we make too many moves rather than too few. I like our chances in the playoffs more this season with Josh Beckett and Dice K leading the way with Okajima and Papelbon drastically shortening a game. Add one more stopper to the bullpen and its now a 6 inning game. Tavarez, Wakefield, Gabbard, Schilling, Lester, whoever can all make it through 6 innings. I think its easier to add bullpen components without sacrificing too much. At least thats what I would do but I think I'm alone with this plan.

The bullpen is better because of Okajima, but it's still thin. Papelbon and Jima are the only two reliable guys for Tito to turn to. The guys in the pen are the same as last year, except for Piniero (a bag of puss) and Donnelly (DL). MDC wasn't doing so bad last year until later in the season. The bullpen is pretty much the same--- Timlin, Lopez, MDC. I posted a Pedroia/Loretta statistical comparison last week. To this point in the season, they are almost identical statistically. Please don't try to make Pedroia's speed a plus. It is the one skill area where he is well below average. I am not knocking Pedroia. I think he is doing an excellent job, but he is not much of an upgrade over Loretta, if he is an upgrade at all. At the ALL Star Break last year Beckett was 11-4. This year he is 12-2. He is pitching much better this year, so I'll give you that. At the All Star break last year, Youkilis was hitting around .300 and he had 10 HRs. After the All Star break he spiraled down and ended up with only 13 HRs. He has 9 Homers thus far this year. I am sorry, but I don't see the big improvement to this point of the season. He looks like the same guy pre-All Star break as last year. The question is will he finish strong or will he limp to the finish like last year. None of us know the answer. Also, you didn't mention that Manny and Ortiz are not producing anywhere near their levels from past years. I am not saying that this team is not better than last years team, but I am saying that it needs reinforcing to guard against the possibilities of second half injuries (including problems with Schilling) and to prepare it for playoff success.

[jacksonianmarch]

I just wanted to add the fact there is a huge adjustment period for pitchers when changing teams. In fact there is a adjustment period for every player who makes a jump to a new team.

 

Mark Buehrle (as good as he is) has played in Chicago his whole career. Anyone who thinks he would come to Boston and just roll over everyone as he is doing in Chicago may realize a sad truth.

 

New team, new coaches, new stadium, new style of living (especially in Boston), new catcher, new philosphy, new travel plans....a lot of these things we don't think about but at the midpoint of a season they are very important. Baseball is so much about confidence and comfort. You move someone like Mark Buehrle who is very familiar with his surroundings and into the playoff race with the Red Sox I have a hard time seeing him continue his success this season.

 

Out of curiosity can anyone think of a starting pitcher that changed teams mid-way through a season and became a large factor in a teams success toward a championship?

 

David Cone

[example1]

Buehrle would be a great addition. I would love to add him to this (offensively challenged) team. However, without an extension I'm not giving up much. With an extension I would give up Lester or Bowden and a prospect not named Ellsbury, Anderson or Buchholz.

 

I guess when it comes down to it I would hold firm to not moving Ellsbury. He's not a year or two off, he's ready to go now. Move Crisp if you have to, or WMP. I'm holding Ellsbury.

[ksushi]

Ellsbury isn't a special enough talent to hold him out of a deal for a frontline starting pitcher under the age of 30. He's good, but hes not special.

[jacksonianmarch]

Ellsbury isn't a special enough talent to hold him out of a deal for a frontline starting pitcher under the age of 30. He's good' date=' but hes not special.[/quote']

 

this is the point I have been making. Ellsbury isnt going to be an icon or anything. He is a good eye, contact, speed guy with limited power.

[riverside sluggers]

this is the point I have been making. Ellsbury isnt going to be an icon or anything. He is a good eye' date=' contact, speed guy with limited power.[/quote']

 

No sox prospect in your eyes will be close to an icon. Course youve been wrong before: Signing of Dice-K, Okajima, Beckett coming back, calling Pedroia a bush leaguer

 

BTW it is not worth giving up Ellsbury if its just a 2 month rental

[jacksonianmarch]

No sox prospect in your eyes will be close to an icon. Course youve been wrong before: Signing of Dice-K, Okajima, Beckett coming back, calling Pedroia a bush leaguer

 

BTW it is not worth giving up Ellsbury if its just a 2 month rental

 

I KNOW THAT!!! I AM SAYING THAT ANY DEAL IS CONTINGENT ON A 72 HOUR WINDOW TO NEGOTIATE A DEAL!!!

 

And to be honest with you, what player of the bunch you mentioned above is an icon? I liked DiceK from the beginning. Beckett returned to what made him solid. Okajima will not continue to be THIS dominant. And Pedroia may or may not continue this hot streak for his career.

 

All I am saying is that Ellsbury doesnt have the tools to be a Griffey or an Andruw. Those are the kind of prospects you hang onto. Ellsbury could be a very good major leaguer, but without that 20+ homer potential, he isnt as untradeable as you may think.

[riverside sluggers]

Im talking about prospects Jacko. Each yankees prospect will be a major force for the yankees, for sox its all a bunch of hacks and average players

 

How about reading my posts a little bit f***ing clearer. I said youve been wrong about things before

 

*Signing of dice-K. You said for us to return the merchandise because he was going back to japan. then he would be a yankee in 2008

 

*you dismissed the signing of okajima and said he would nothing special

 

*you jumped on pedroia and said he's the 2nd coming of cesar crespo

 

*you said Beckett could very well be his 2006 self for the rest of his career

 

Really?? Ellsbury will not be Griffey or Andruw Jones? I had no f***ing idea he's not a homerun slugger

[jacksonianmarch]

I would be more likely to offer Ellsbury than Anderson. Anderson could be a monster.

[riverside sluggers]

roroworld

Mark Buehrle was seen hugging teammates in the dugout during the ninth inning of Sunday's game against the Twins.

 

He remained in the dugout, so perhaps he and the White Sox got an extension done. The other possibility is that a trade has taken place.

 

EDIT:

Mark Buehrle is getting a four-year extension from the White Sox, it was announced immediately after Sunday's game.

 

f*** it all to hell Well what other trade options are out there

[schillingouttheks]

A bat.

 

EDIT: Again...a condition of the trade was that he be extended. This could still be going either way.

[example1]

Ellsbury isn't a special enough talent to hold him out of a deal for a frontline starting pitcher under the age of 30. He's good' date=' but hes not special.[/quote']

 

What do you mean by "good"? What do you project him to do in the majors?

 

I'm watching Ellsbury as the leadoff hitter and CF in the MiLB futures game, sharing the OF with Justin Upton and Jay Bruce. Apparently a number of people think that Ellsbury is the best American-born CF in the minors. That's pretty high praise. In fact, I would say that's pretty special praise.

 

This guy's career he has been a winner. He makes things happen and, as opposed to many players who have that label, his numbers back it up. The runs, the SBs, the OBP, it's all there.