Mark Buehrle?

[a700hitter]

roroworld

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

f*** it all to hell Well what other trade options are out there

Did he get the no-trade clause?

[Cityofchampions33]

A bat.

 

Yes pelase, that's what this etam truely needs

[example1]

I KNOW THAT!!! I AM SAYING THAT ANY DEAL IS CONTINGENT ON A 72 HOUR WINDOW TO NEGOTIATE A DEAL!!!

 

And to be honest with you, what player of the bunch you mentioned above is an icon? I liked DiceK from the beginning. Beckett returned to what made him solid. Okajima will not continue to be THIS dominant. And Pedroia may or may not continue this hot streak for his career.

 

All I am saying is that Ellsbury doesnt have the tools to be a Griffey or an Andruw. Those are the kind of prospects you hang onto. Ellsbury could be a very good major leaguer, but without that 20+ homer potential, he isnt as untradeable as you may think.

 

Kenny Lofton in his prime is the projection on Sox Prospects, and looking at Lofton's numbers I see them as a good comp. Lofton achieved a .400+ OBP for a few seasons. He scored a ton of runs and was the always-threatening leadoff hitter for an impressive Cleveland team.

 

If we were talking about dealing for Miguel Cabrera or Roy Oswalt then it would be a different matter.

[ksushi]

I KNOW THAT!!! I AM SAYING THAT ANY DEAL IS CONTINGENT ON A 72 HOUR WINDOW TO NEGOTIATE A DEAL!!!

 

And to be honest with you, what player of the bunch you mentioned above is an icon? I liked DiceK from the beginning. Beckett returned to what made him solid. Okajima will not continue to be THIS dominant. And Pedroia may or may not continue this hot streak for his career.

 

All I am saying is that Ellsbury doesnt have the tools to be a Griffey or an Andruw. Those are the kind of prospects you hang onto. Ellsbury could be a very good major leaguer, but without that 20+ homer potential, he isnt as untradeable as you may think.

 

I agree with you 100%. On everything except I think Okajima has big time stuff, but yeah no one holds a zero ERA for too long.

 

Ellsbury has speed and defense. He doesn't really have .300 potential, he doesn't have any power potential. His only real plus attribute is his speed. He'll be good, but we're talking, Juan Pierre good, not Carl Crawford good or Johnny Damon good.

 

His max value to the Red Sox is in a trade. We have the best defensive centerfielder in baseball already and since June 1st he's been hitting the ball hard and I'd bet hitting around .300. If he is back to doing what he has done pre-boston, with that defense, I don't know if you can really improve on that. Ellsbury certainly can't.

 

Jon Lester is AT BEST a number 2 starter on a big market club, but what makes him valuable is that at worst, he's a 3 or a really good 4. He has good stuff, but like ORS said, we hope he is like a Buehrle down the road. Buehrle isn't too old either, 28, going into his prime. He is a horse and can quiet teams down like only the best pitchers in the league can.

 

3.03 ERA right now would be the best on our staff.

 

Maybe five years from now, if we sent them Ells, Lester and Lugo we would be able to say they got the better end of the deal long term when you look at the overall talent changing hands, but really who cares. Youk, Pedroia, Papelbon, Beckett, Dice-K, Buehrle, Crisp and Bucholz are all above average to very good major leaguers under the age of 30. That is a great nucleus of young talent. Add Buehrle to that mix and we compete year in year out for the next 5-7 years depending on re-signings.

 

Buehrle was set to sign a 4 year 50 million dollar deal. If we offered him 5 and 75, he'd be in the fold.

 

The team we have right now needs a shake up. The talent is there on both sides of the ball, they just need that kick in the ass that a big trade gives. We're getting complacent... and having 3 #5 starters in our rotation doesn't help either.

 

If the FO brings in a big time pitcher like Buehrle thats says to the team "Ok, we think this is the year, here is the last piece of the puzzle, go and get it done." That might be all this team needs to go from .500 ball club (what theyre playing like now) to .700 juggernaut (what they were and what they should be).

[ksushi]

Wow. f*** that. I want the last 4 minutes of my life back.

[schillingouttheks]

Wow. f*** that. I want the last 4 minutes of my life back.

 

I felt so bad for you when I saw that you typed that.

[example1]

I agree with you 100%. On everything except I think Okajima has big time stuff, but yeah no one holds a zero ERA for too long.

 

Ellsbury has speed and defense. He doesn't really have .300 potential, he doesn't have any power potential. His only real plus attribute is his speed. He'll be good, but we're talking, Juan Pierre good, not Carl Crawford good or Johnny Damon good.

 

His max value to the Red Sox is in a trade. We have the best defensive centerfielder in baseball already and since June 1st he's been hitting the ball hard and I'd bet hitting around .300. If he is back to doing what he has done pre-boston, with that defense, I don't know if you can really improve on that. Ellsbury certainly can't.

 

Jon Lester is AT BEST a number 2 starter on a big market club, but what makes him valuable is that at worst, he's a 3 or a really good 4. He has good stuff, but like ORS said, we hope he is like a Buehrle down the road. Buehrle isn't too old either, 28, going into his prime. He is a horse and can quiet teams down like only the best pitchers in the league can.

 

3.03 ERA right now would be the best on our staff.

 

Maybe five years from now, if we sent them Ells, Lester and Lugo we would be able to say they got the better end of the deal long term when you look at the overall talent changing hands, but really who cares. Youk, Pedroia, Papelbon, Beckett, Dice-K, Buehrle, Crisp and Bucholz are all above average to very good major leaguers under the age of 30. That is a great nucleus of young talent. Add Buehrle to that mix and we compete year in year out for the next 5-7 years depending on re-signings.

 

I think its funny that Crisp, a guy who has fought tooth and nail to raise his average to .270 is now considered to be above average to very good.

 

Buehrle was set to sign a 4 year 50 million dollar deal. If we offered him 5 and 75, he'd be in the fold.

 

The team we have right now needs a shake up. The talent is there on both sides of the ball, they just need that kick in the ass that a big trade gives. We're getting complacent... and having 3 #5 starters in our rotation doesn't help either.

 

If the FO brings in a big time pitcher like Buehrle thats says to the team "Ok, we think this is the year, here is the last piece of the puzzle, go and get it done." That might be all this team needs to go from .500 ball club (what theyre playing like now) to .700 juggernaut (what they were and what they should be).

 

This team has some of the best pitching in baseball. Their ERA and runs against are tiny compared to most teams. What this team needs is a bat.

 

If Ellsbury's only value to us now is as a trading piece--which assumes that NOBODY else in the league sees Crisp as "above average"--then we should use that trading piece to get some offense.

 

If Elsbury is such a marginal major leaguer (as many here are saying) then why would the White Sox want him for such a "stud" major league pitcher? They wouldn't. If the Red Sox were to trade, say, Josh Beckett (whose numbers haven't been nearly as good as Buehrle's) wouldn't you expect back more than a "Juan Pierre type"? If they are willing to get Ellsbury as the centerpiece it is because they think Ellsbury is more than just a role player. My guess? 5 years from now Ellsbury will be one of the top 5 leadoff hitters in baseball.

 

EDIT: Until I've heard of a no-trade clause I'll keep going with Buehrle as the trade piece... but the argument about Ellsbury's value stays whether it's Buehrle or Zito we're talking about

[ksushi]

Oh well, overall point still stands just replace the name buehrle with oswalt. The FO needs to do something. Year after year they have brought us the pieces we needed to compete at the deadline, this won't be any different. Last year before the season Theo said he expected the team to fade and win 85 games. We faded and won 86. I don't know if he didn't like what we have this year, but lets hope he thinks otherwise of a ten game lead.

 

Gagne and Otsuka are available for sure but I don't know if thats a wise move. Delcarmen has looked GREAT and I have as much faith in him as I would in Otsuka if we brought him in so that might be a wash. Oswalt was asked if he would waive the no trade clause but despite having a 2% chance of making the playoffs, Drayton McClane apparently still thinks they are in it and covets Oswalt anyways... and can you blame him? Oswalt would cost us Bucholz no doubt about it, and thats not worth it. Bucholz could be Oswalt...

 

Anyone have any ideas?

[thee sox]

Contreras will be available...you can have him for a bucket of balls if you'd like.

 

We can send Juan Uribe over there too...still not much of an offensive player, but he gives some pop and goes on short tears...Gold Glove defense too.

[ksushi]

I think its funny that Crisp, a guy who has fought tooth and nail to raise his average to .270 is now considered to be above average to very good.

 

 

 

This team has some of the best pitching in baseball. Their ERA and runs against are tiny compared to most teams. What this team needs is a bat.

 

If Ellsbury's only value to us now is as a trading piece--which assumes that NOBODY else in the league sees Crisp as "above average"--then we should use that trading piece to get some offense.

 

If Elsbury is such a marginal major leaguer (as many here are saying) then why would the White Sox want him for such a "stud" major league pitcher? They wouldn't. If the Red Sox were to trade, say, Josh Beckett (whose numbers haven't been nearly as good as Buehrle's) wouldn't you expect back more than a "Juan Pierre type"? If they are willing to get Ellsbury as the centerpiece it is because they think Ellsbury is more than just a role player. My guess? 5 years from now Ellsbury will be one of the top 5 leadoff hitters in baseball.

 

EDIT: Until I've heard of a no-trade clause I'll keep going with Buehrle as the trade piece... but the argument about Ellsbury's value stays whether it's Buehrle or Zito we're talking about

 

First of all, Crisp fought tooth and nail? No. No, not really. He had a horrendous first couple months and there could be a whole host of reasons he was pressing, but unless you are determined to undermind his value to continue to wash ellsbury's balls, you have to look at his turn around and be impressed. Without a good Coco Crisp we would have been a .250 team in june, not a .500 team. If he hits like he has pre-boston, he is more valuable than Ellsbury to the Boston Red Sox. Coco Crisp is on pace to have a better defensive year than even Andruw Jones has ever had, and if his hitting is more of what we have seen since June first and less of what we saw in April and May, you can't deny his worth. He didn't fight tooth and nail, he got comfortable at the plate, and went back to playing the kind of game he did in Cleveland.

 

And, I never said I think Ellsbury will be marginal. I think Ellsbury will be good, but not nearly as good as some people think on here. He might be recieving "special" praise, but he doesn't have a special skill set. He has a very common skill set... which consists of one plus attribute... his speed. He's a pretty good hitter, but no power. I'm not going to make a case against him, cause as I've said before, I like him. I just think that since we already have a capable CFer, trading Ellsbury makes sense.

[ksushi]

Would anyone jump on the Adam Dunn band wagon? The only problem in my eyes is where to play him? 1B?

 

Or... an unconventional route... I love JD Drew, but hes not getting it done. If we funded say... the next two full years of his five year deal and sent him to Cinci as part of the deal and played Dunn in right would anyone be crying for him back?

[ORS]

Williams was interviewed from the Futures Game. No NTC, although there is some trade protection there. The extension allows them to go after a big grab of prospects if they are still interested in trading him.

[ksushi]

Yeah, agreed, after reading about the deal I think this might just be another leverage point for Williams. I kind of smell a fire sale and have for awhile. It would surprise me if there wasn't one... but I don't know. I still kinda doubt Buehrle gets dealt. Demands will be way too high.

[MDF3530]

Just got the email from the White Sox.

 

Here's the URL: http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070708&content_id=2075690&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

[CrespoBlows]

Contreras will be available...you can have him for a bucket of balls if you'd like.

 

We can send Juan Uribe over there too...still not much of an offensive player, but he gives some pop and goes on short tears...Gold Glove defense too.

 

BUT OZZIE LIEKS HIM BECUZ HE BUNTS N HE PLAYS SMART BALL LOL!!!!!

[example1]

First of all' date=' Crisp fought tooth and nail? No. No, not really. He had a horrendous first couple months and there could be a whole host of reasons he was pressing, but unless you are determined to undermind his value to continue to wash ellsbury's balls, you have to look at his turn around and be impressed. Without a good Coco Crisp we would have been a .250 team in june, not a .500 team. If he hits like he has pre-boston, he is more valuable than Ellsbury to the Boston Red Sox. Coco Crisp is on pace to have a better defensive year than even Andruw Jones has ever had, and if his hitting is more of what we have seen since June first and less of what we saw in April and May, you can't deny his worth. He didn't fight tooth and nail, he got comfortable at the plate, and went back to playing the kind of game he did in Cleveland. [/quote']

 

When you're hitting close to .200 one month and closer to .270 the next, while being raked over the coals on a consistent basis by 95% of the people here, every caller on WEEI, the papers, the television, EVERYONE, you're fighting tooth and nail. Coco has clearly turned it around. Obviously. He is hitting much better now. I never said he wasn't.

 

Your discussion about Ellsbury seems pretty off base. "If he hits like he has pre-boston, he is more valuable than Ellsbury to the boston red Sox"? Hmm. Ellsbury has better speed, is a better fielder, has a better arm, gets on base more and neither of them has significant power. Crisp was brought in to be a leadoff hitter, but even now isn't ideal in that role.

 

My point isn't that crisp sucks. I've never said that (go ahead, look back in the archives and see if I've ever said that he is unequivocally a bad player or a bad signing). I never said it. My point is that if Crisp really IS as good as all the fickle Crisp bandwagoners here think he is, then he should be MORE valuable than Ellsbury because he has done it in the majors and is young. Only an idiot would look at the situation any differently.

 

Of course, most teams wouldn't be asking for Crisp. They would want Ellsbury because his upside his higher.

 

And, I never said I think Ellsbury will be marginal. I think Ellsbury will be good, but not nearly as good as some people think on here. He might be recieving "special" praise, but he doesn't have a special skill set. He has a very common skill set... which consists of one plus attribute... his speed. He's a pretty good hitter, but no power. I'm not going to make a case against him, cause as I've said before, I like him. I just think that since we already have a capable CFer, trading Ellsbury makes sense.

 

"A very common skill set"...

 

Hmmm, please name the other guys in the MLB who have .400 OBP, 60 SB and Gold Glove potential. very common?

 

I guess I don't know what you're missing here. I see the two as very similar players, except that Ellsbury has a higher upside in every category except for HR power. He has a considerably better OBP history than Crisp does. Crisp has a CAREER .328 OBP.

 

Let me repeat that:

 

CRISP HAS A CAREER .328 OBP!!!

 

Ellsbury easily projects as a .370 OBP guy. If you want a leadoff hitter then he's your guy, not Crisp.

 

I like Crisp, I have no problems with him. I'm just not willing to 'throw in' a top prospect because he doesn't hit HRs or because he plays in a position that is currently filled by a marginal MLB talent. That, to me, is a short sighted approach to take with a prospect who has been an All Star at every level that he has played in, who was 1st team all-american, who was worth a 1st round pick, and who has already shown the impact he can have on an MLB level. What the hell is th eproblem with Crisp and Ellsbury BOTH being on this team and someone else getting dealt?

 

I'm not washing Ellsbury's balls, I'm trying to keep people from just throwing things overboard on a sinking ship that isn't sinking.

[CrespoBlows]

Im talking about prospects Jacko. Each yankees prospect will be a major force for the yankees, for sox its all a bunch of hacks and average players

 

How about reading my posts a little bit f***ing clearer. I said youve been wrong about things before

 

*Signing of dice-K. You said for us to return the merchandise because he was going back to japan. then he would be a yankee in 2008

 

*you dismissed the signing of okajima and said he would nothing special

 

*you jumped on pedroia and said he's the 2nd coming of cesar crespo

 

*you said Beckett could very well be his 2006 self for the rest of his career

 

Really?? Ellsbury will not be Griffey or Andruw Jones? I had no f***ing idea he's not a homerun slugger

 

Hahaha.

 

You're exactly like the person you accuse Jackson of being.

[example1]

Would anyone jump on the Adam Dunn band wagon? The only problem in my eyes is where to play him? 1B?

 

Or... an unconventional route... I love JD Drew, but hes not getting it done. If we funded say... the next two full years of his five year deal and sent him to Cinci as part of the deal and played Dunn in right would anyone be crying for him back?

 

It's just not going to happen Ksushi. I don't see this team dealing Drew this season.

 

Dunn would be nice(ish). He's a solid player.

[thee sox]

BUT OZZIE LIEKS HIM BECUZ HE BUNTS N HE PLAYS SMART BALL LOL!!!!!

 

Whatever this means...

 

I guess I don't speak moron.

[MDF3530]

BUT OZZIE LIEKS HIM BECUZ HE BUNTS N HE PLAYS SMART BALL LOL!!!!!

No, Uribe can't lay down a bunt to save his life, he relies too much on his arm in the field and he has been known to take innings off.

[jacksonianmarch]

First of all, Crisp fought tooth and nail? No. No, not really. He had a horrendous first couple months and there could be a whole host of reasons he was pressing, but unless you are determined to undermind his value to continue to wash ellsbury's balls, you have to look at his turn around and be impressed. Without a good Coco Crisp we would have been a .250 team in june, not a .500 team. If he hits like he has pre-boston, he is more valuable than Ellsbury to the Boston Red Sox. Coco Crisp is on pace to have a better defensive year than even Andruw Jones has ever had, and if his hitting is more of what we have seen since June first and less of what we saw in April and May, you can't deny his worth. He didn't fight tooth and nail, he got comfortable at the plate, and went back to playing the kind of game he did in Cleveland.

 

And, I never said I think Ellsbury will be marginal. I think Ellsbury will be good, but not nearly as good as some people think on here. He might be recieving "special" praise, but he doesn't have a special skill set. He has a very common skill set... which consists of one plus attribute... his speed. He's a pretty good hitter, but no power. I'm not going to make a case against him, cause as I've said before, I like him. I just think that since we already have a capable CFer, trading Ellsbury makes sense.

 

 

and a Cleveland era Coco is better than anything Ellsbury would become since Coco has power.

[CrespoBlows]

Whatever this means...

 

I guess I don't speak moron.

 

Dude, your manager invented the language "moron."

 

You should be the most fluent person on the board.

[jacksonianmarch]

Whatever this means...

 

I guess I don't speak moron.

 

ozzie is overrated.

[ksushi]

It's just not going to happen Ksushi. I don't see this team dealing Drew this season.

 

Dunn would be nice(ish). He's a solid player.

 

Never say never. I smell something unconventional coming. This FO has made shake ups when its necessary. This team has a good nucleus, a strangle hold on the division and thus a spot in the playoffs ( we think) and is struggling lately and looking sluggish. So, we have exactly zero quality starting pitchers on the market. Not many big name bats that are being actively shopped. Thing is, Sox have a need for both commodities.

 

Something is gonna happen. Dunn is a guy who could be shopped, I think if it comes down to it, the sox will make big changes to bring in a guy who might not otherwise fit into our line up. Drew, Lowell, or even Manny could be moved, I don't know if anyone is safe in our lineup since no one is really playing well. Pedroia and Youk can rest easy, but outside of them, is there really anyone safe?

[ksushi]

Im talking about prospects Jacko. Each yankees prospect will be a major force for the yankees, for sox its all a bunch of hacks and average players

 

How about reading my posts a little bit f***ing clearer. I said youve been wrong about things before

 

*Signing of dice-K. You said for us to return the merchandise because he was going back to japan. then he would be a yankee in 2008

 

*you dismissed the signing of okajima and said he would nothing special

 

*you jumped on pedroia and said he's the 2nd coming of cesar crespo

 

*you said Beckett could very well be his 2006 self for the rest of his career

 

Really?? Ellsbury will not be Griffey or Andruw Jones? I had no f***ing idea he's not a homerun slugger

 

Name one person who expected Pedroia to hit .320 in the first half and for Okajima to be anything but a drinking buddy for Dice-K.

 

Come on.

 

Sorry to pick on you, but I just saw this now and you can't jump on a guy for that stuff.

[jacksonianmarch]

I smell something unconventional as well. I think Manny might be floated.

[ksushi]

Yeah, I'm getting that feeling. Manny and Ellsbury for Miguel Cabrera!!! I can dream. Leave me alone.

[jacksonianmarch]

The day the fish pay Manny's contract is the day I remove my testicles, toss them in a blender, mix them with protein shake mix, and take a sip.

[ksushi]

Well, not saying this could ever happen, but if I were the Red Sox I would fund all the players involved in that deal if I could get Miguel Cabrera in that swap. You're gonna pay for Manny anyways, why not pay for him to enjoy florida and watch Miguel Cabrera be exactly the same player (and person) that manny is. It would be great.

 

Leave me and my dreams alone.

[jacksonianmarch]

If the sox successfully deal for Cabrera I will drink my own pee.