New shortstop?

[ksushi]

Its getting to the point with Lugo where he is pretty hard to watch. He's hitting less than .220, his OBP is well under .300. He is pathetic at the plate, I don't know how else you can spin it. Tonight against the Rockies he has looked like he's got cinder blocks on for shoes. He deserves an error for that diving play, because there was no dive needed. So many balls are hit hard to him that most short stops handle, even sometimes right at him, and he throws the play away, boots the ball or just out right doesn't get to it. His play is atrocious.

 

The Yankees, to make matters worse, are heating up. Albeit, heating up the bats, not so much the arms, they're still closing ground while we're kind of cooling down a little bit. Lugo looks like our most glaring hole. We might need another set-up arm, you could argue that Crisp is bringing nothing to the plate but his D is winning us games and Crisp, I feel like, has more of a chance to find his pulse at the plate. That's a gut instinct thing, nothing really to back that up numbers wise.

 

Ok, to get to the point, should we pursue a trade? Eat the nine million, maybe move him to a utility role or deal him for grounds crew help. Its possible Furcal could be available. Felipe Lopez on the Nats could be available if they ever have that inevitable fire sale they should have had when they still had Soriano. Caesar Izturis would be available, but I don't know how much of an upgrade that would be. Maybe the best defensive SS in the league, (vizquel and adam everett might disagree). Eckstein would be an easy swap, in the national league he has been hitting around .290-.300 and the cardinals suck. I'm wary about expecting immediate impact from guys coming over from the national league because it is a different game and I think that is a lot of what we're seeing from Drew, there is kind of a lull in production before they really get going, sometimes... look back at OC, he came over and hit .290 with the sox for the rest of the year and caught lightning in a bottle.

 

My take is that Cora is a better alternative than Izturis, Lopez, and Eckstein (maybe, maybe not). Eckstein might be better, it depends what we're looking for. Cora would be better defensively, Eckstein is a more reliable hitter. I think, even if he isn't getting shopped, the Dodgers have a young core brewing, and aren't out of it at all, but maybe possibly we could force a trade for Furcal, but would most likely be overpaying. Eckstein is by far the most likely to become available.

 

I think Lugo needs to be out, I'd be very ok with replacing him with Cora and maybe exploring a trade for a center fielder.

[YazsTripleCrown]

I'm not surprised.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I don't have an easy solution to either Julio Lugo or Coco Crisp but all I know is...they are the worst players on this team and they suck. I don't know how to upgrade over either player but Theo Epstein got the team in this situation and he should figure out a way to fix the issue.

[example1]

I don't have an easy solution to either Julio Lugo or Coco Crisp but all I know is...they are the worst players on this team and they suck. I don't know how to upgrade over either player but Theo Epstein got the team in this situation and he should figure out a way to fix the issue.

 

His name is Jacoby Ellsbury and he plays for Pawtucket. I don't care what other people say, bring the kid up for a 2nd half run. He gives the Sox the leadoff hitter they need to put everyone in a more appropriate position in the lineup:

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Ortiz

Manny

Drew

Youkilis

Lowell

Varitek

Lugo

 

There is no real solution at SS, but if he's batting 9th then you mitigate his suckiness a little bit, allow him to run more, etc., and take him out of the top of the order. Ellsbury's speed alone will produce some interesting results (he could be a 50-60+ stolen base guy) and will keep CF well-defended.

 

So there's my solution. I would likely also try to bring up Buchholz too, but few people agree with that approach. I think there is a lot to be gained by these young guys being able to be the lowest rungs on the ladder on this team, so to speak. Getting to play on a team with the likes of Schilling, Manny, Ortiz, Varitek, etc., could help that core nucleus of the next few years to gel. The team of the future is undoubtedly going to be comprised of names like Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Papelbon and Buchholz, so like a700 argues, we should make a run while we have THIS group that includes Manny and Lowell and Varitek and Schilling. I think the experienced gained would outweigh any potential temporary loss in performance.

[jacksonianmarch]

Ellsbury is just starting to get a hang of AAA. You have to let him get settled before you bring him up.

[yeszir]

Ellsbury is just starting to get a hang of AAA. You have to let him get settled before you bring him up.

That's not the Red Sox way.

[jacksonianmarch]

That's not the Red Sox way.

 

right. They bring them up, they struggle because they have been brought up too soon and then they get moved. The kid then finds it and people are all over the FO for dealing the kid away. How about you wait until he is ready? Hitters are much harder to gauge in terms of potential than pitchers. You have a 20yr old kid throwing 95 and a solid curve yet is getting yacked, you know the potential is there. It is harder to gauge that in a hitter. I am telling you this right now. Ellsbury shouldnt see the bigs this yr. He took too long to get into it in AAA, imagine how tough it will be to get into the swing of things in the bigs. Keep him down and start him in CF to start the season with Crisp as the backup.

[example1]

Ellsbury is just starting to get a hang of AAA. You have to let him get settled before you bring him up.

 

I just don't believe that there is some hard-and-fast rule about how to deal with minor leaguers. This guy's tools have been consistent across the board. He isn't a power guy, he's got ++ speed and ++ defense, with a high OBP but not an amazing OBP (.375 is reasonable).

 

We are ostensibly talking about using him to replace Crisp's production (.281 OBP) or Lugo's production (.273 OBP). People say that Cora could do better, and I agree. But why replace the leadoff hitter with Cora lower in the lineup when you have a stereotypical leadoff hitter who is going to be the future of the franchise in the wings? Why have him score nearly a run per game in AAA when he could do the same in MLB. He's obviously not a flash in the pan, as is evidenced by his quick movement through the system.

 

Hell, we need a CF and a leadoff hitter. Instead of dealing a promising minor leaguer for a mediocre replacement option go with what you're going to go with next year anyway.

[yeszir]

right. They bring them up' date=' they struggle because they have been brought up too soon and then they get moved. The kid then finds it and people are all over the FO for dealing the kid away. How about you wait until he is ready? Hitters are much harder to gauge in terms of potential than pitchers. You have a 20yr old kid throwing 95 and a solid curve yet is getting yacked, you know the potential is there. It is harder to gauge that in a hitter. I am telling you this right now. Ellsbury shouldnt see the bigs this yr. He took too long to get into it in AAA, imagine how tough it will be to get into the swing of things in the bigs. Keep him down and start him in CF to start the season with Crisp as the backup.[/quote']

 

This was the complaint that I was making by my short, sarcastic post.

[jacksonianmarch]

Because you run the risk of ruining a kid by bringing him up in a high pressure situation in the middle of a pennant race. Ellsbury being inserted right into the leadoff spot is atrocious. The last thing you want to do is ruin his confidence. Plus, he started AAA off atrociously. He is just starting to get it back. You want him to stabilize that before you bring him up.

[example1]

right. They bring them up' date=' they struggle because they have been brought up too soon and then they get moved. [/quote']

 

Just like happened with Pedroia, right?

 

People talked about how poor an option he was at 2b, and he started slowly but he has come around obviously and they were right to bring him up when they did.

 

The kid then finds it and people are all over the FO for dealing the kid away. How about you wait until he is ready? Hitters are much harder to gauge in terms of potential than pitchers. You have a 20yr old kid throwing 95 and a solid curve yet is getting yacked, you know the potential is there. It is harder to gauge that in a hitter. I am telling you this right now. Ellsbury shouldnt see the bigs this yr. He took too long to get into it in AAA, imagine how tough it will be to get into the swing of things in the bigs. Keep him down and start him in CF to start the season with Crisp as the backup.

 

So a kid has a poor first 30 ABs in AAA, essentially hits a cold streak over 6 games, and you say he adjusted poorly? I see a kid who is hitting .297 with a .379 OBP in 34 games. Looks fine to me. He's getting a SB every other game (17 in 34) and is scoring nearly a run a game this season throughout the minors. It may be harder to guage hitters tools, but you can't question his speed or fielding. Since that's all that Crisp offers, and Ellsbury is currently a better hitter than Crisp I just don't buy that you should never bring him up in a situation like this.

 

He's not 18, he's 23.

[example1]

Because you run the risk of ruining a kid by bringing him up in a high pressure situation in the middle of a pennant race. Ellsbury being inserted right into the leadoff spot is atrocious. The last thing you want to do is ruin his confidence. Plus' date=' he started AAA off atrociously. He is just starting to get it back. You want him to stabilize that before you bring him up.[/quote']

 

If he is just starting to get it back with his .379 OBP and .297 AVG then you are acknowledging that this guy will end the season hitting like .333 with a .415 OBP in AAA. If you have that in AAA and a guy hitting .220 with a .285 OBP on a big league club that needs a spark you bring the guy up and give him a shot. He's not going to be worse and he--unlike crisp--is someone the fans will rally around.

 

EDIT: Also, why do you think he's a fragile person? Why worry about ruining his confidence? Did it hurt Pedroia to be brought up at the end of a season and to start the season poorly? How many bases clearing triples do you think it will take for Ellsbury to realize he is a superior athelete? I think he knows he's a great athelete and he will have no trouble adjusting to the role that he could hold for the next 10 years.

 

 

Again, what's the other option?

[example1]

How poorly did he start in AAA? His first full month there he scored 20 runs in 23 games, hitting .293 with a .369 OBP, stealing 11 bases and getting caught 2 times. You can't call the first two weeks of a month a "horrible" start. I just don't think your argument that he started out so shittily in AAA that he couldn't possibly produce at the MLB level holds water.

[Rodney Harrison]

Two months is a bit too early on calling it quits on a four-year deal, isn't it?

[jacksonianmarch]

How poorly did he start in AAA? His first full month there he scored 20 runs in 23 games' date=' hitting .293 with a .369 OBP, stealing 11 bases and getting caught 2 times. You can't call the first two weeks of a month a "horrible" start. I just don't think your argument that he started out so shittily in AAA that he couldn't possibly produce at the MLB level holds water.[/quote']

 

I think he certainly could produce in the bigs. But remember Pedroia. Can you really stomach watching a rookie leadoff and hit .190 while he works out his kinks? It sounds like you think this kid will come up and hit .300 right away. There is an adjustment period.

[example1]

I think he certainly could produce in the bigs. But remember Pedroia. Can you really stomach watching a rookie leadoff and hit .190 while he works out his kinks? It sounds like you think this kid will come up and hit .300 right away. There is an adjustment period.

 

I just don't think that can be shown to be true. Every season there are some rookies who come up and are absolutely on fire and then regress to the mean, and others who under perform and eventually ascend to the mean. Is there any reason to think players are predetermined to have one reaction or the other? No; it is a strange statistical clumping. I agree that there will be some form of an adjustment period, but it is still a game and the pitcher still has to put the ball over the plate and Jacoby has to try to hit it.

 

I think there is way more to it than assuming he will have a negative adjustment period because you can think of other players who have. Even Pedroia last year had a lot of hard hit balls and good at bats, they just didn't fall early and it killed his stats.

[riverside sluggers]

Sorry I think its easier said then done that the Sox can be able to trade Julio Lugo (who is having a horrible year) with his 4 year/$36 million contract hagning around his neck. The Sox would have to eat a very sizable portion to do so if there are any teams actually interested

 

Jacko... oh god yes Ellsbury had such an atrocious start in Triple A. Get off your high horse. Ive been tracking him since day 1, there was maybe like just over a week where he fell in a mini slump but nowhere near was he hitting like Mirabelli

[a700hitter]

Lugo needs to sit if he doesn't bust out in the next two or 3 games. It looks like his confidence is shot. His lack of offensive production is starting to carry over to the field. He needs to be taken out of the spotlight and hidden on the bench for a while. Cora could not do worse. Crisp is looking lost as well. WMP even with his k's would probably upgrade the offense, but his D is a big downgrade. Getting these guys highlights that not every player can handle the pressure of performing in Boston. When you find players that can perform in Boston, you have to pay a premium for them. The FO should have kept Damon and OCab. We are paying for those FO mistakes.

[BSN07]

Ocab ya it would be nice to have him around. Damon NO, Yes he is better then Crisp but look at him, there talking about making him a DH or 1B. He can't throw the ball and when he does( as someone else put it) he looks like the nerd in gym class who chucks the ball all retarded after hes been made fun of. Yes Damon will be pretty good the 1st couple years of his contract. But hes got Bernie Williams written all over him, and theres no way I'd want that on the team. Damon's body is going to fall apart, the signs are there. Damon going to NY hurt us short term(2 yrs) but in the long run it will be a smart choice.

 

As far as SS goes, I don't know if there ever going to beable to find someone that can play SS for more then a yr for us. Ocab was our best bet, buttheres nothing we can do about that, They signed Renteria, which in all honesty wasn't that bad of a deal prior to the start of the season. I don't know if they will beable to move Lugo without eating a huge portion of salary, and I have no clue who they could get to replace him. But for the mean time leave him in the 9th spot or on the bench until he gets his head on straight.

[Mr Crunchy]

how much money are we going to be paying other teams short stops??

this,above all of theos f*** ups,ranks at the top of the list

 

how many more shortstops must die in boston

[BSN07]

It's a cursed position or something. In all honesty tho SS is a position in the league right now where there isn't a deep talent pool. Besides a handful of guys theres really not alot to choose from. Yes we had Hanley and he looks like hes going to be a top quality SS, but if Beckett continues to pitch as a top quality starter then you have to make that trade 10/10 times. Besides, for those who are blaming Theo for the SS situation you can't account him for this trade. All the others are on him tho. We all know Lugo can be a quality SS, he just seems lost at the moment, hes struggling and he has admitted this(which is more then alot of players will do), he wants to play great, he wants to be a spectacular lead off man, its just not happening for him, and I for one believe its not from lack of effort. He wants to be here in Boston, and play for a top market team, I think he can handle it, but for now we just have to have some Patience(which is not a quality that most people have that are from RSN). Let him hit out of the 9 hole until he can find his swing, and when he does, if Pedroia is holding his own in the lead off spot leave him where he is. At this point I think trying to trade him is a bad move, and most likely an improbable one.

[jacksonianmarch]

I just don't think that can be shown to be true. Every season there are some rookies who come up and are absolutely on fire and then regress to the mean, and others who under perform and eventually ascend to the mean. Is there any reason to think players are predetermined to have one reaction or the other? No; it is a strange statistical clumping. I agree that there will be some form of an adjustment period, but it is still a game and the pitcher still has to put the ball over the plate and Jacoby has to try to hit it.

 

I think there is way more to it than assuming he will have a negative adjustment period because you can think of other players who have. Even Pedroia last year had a lot of hard hit balls and good at bats, they just didn't fall early and it killed his stats.

 

but across the board, all rookies typically produce well below their potenial in their first season. There are certainly outliers, but be serious here. How many rookies come up and hit lights out right away? You dont see it too often and for a kid who doesnt have a lot of power, it might be a little tougher. Typically, the ones who do come up and catch fire do so by hitting the ball into the seats. This kid wont be doing that anytime soon.

[Soxfan1]

My memory is fading from when Youk was brought up. He hit a HR his first AB, but was he brought up to soon?

[jacksonianmarch]

My memory is fading from when Youk was brought up. He hit a HR his first AB' date=' but was he brought up to soon?[/quote']

 

no, he was brought up at 25 or so and his role was limited until last yr.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Two months is a bit too early on calling it quits on a four-year deal' date=' isn't it?[/quote']

 

I agree...

 

Lugo has shown in the past just what kind of player he is/can be. I don't believe that he could be this type of player in Tampa and not in Boston. I understand that some people just can't cut it in Boston, but I really don't think Lugo is that type of guy. I posted my predictions for Lugo's season in another thread, but I'll repost it here.

 

.275, 10-12 HRs, 80 Rs, 75 RBIs, 35 SBs

 

I don't know that those are the exact stats that I posted in the other thread...but just going over stuff in my head, I don't think they're out of the realm of possibilities by any means. We signed Lugo to a big 4 year deal...he's going to be our shortstop for this year and three years beyond. He's not going to get the same value in a trade that we got when we dealt Renteria (who doesn't seem to be able to produce in Atlanta, either...<_ and we have too much money invested in him to let go. i confident that he produce.>

 

As far as Ellsbury goes...I think we should at least give him a taste of the big leagues. We're not going to get any worse out of him than we're getting from Coco. From what I've read, he's not the kind of guy that'll get really rattled if he comes up here and doesn't produce right away. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders and seems like the type to benefit from a little taste of the show. Who knows, maybe he'll come up here and rake and prove that he belongs now. Maybe he won't and maybe the learning curve will be a little longer. Either way, I think it has all kinds of benefits giving him a taste. Even if we bring him up and don't use him right away to start games...instead as a late pinch-runner or something, it still will help him get a feel for Fenway.

[seabeachfred]

Its getting to the point with Lugo where he is pretty hard to watch. He's hitting less than .220, his OBP is well under .300. He is pathetic at the plate, I don't know how else you can spin it. Tonight against the Rockies he has looked like he's got cinder blocks on for shoes. He deserves an error for that diving play, because there was no dive needed. So many balls are hit hard to him that most short stops handle, even sometimes right at him, and he throws the play away, boots the ball or just out right doesn't get to it. His play is atrocious.

 

The Yankees, to make matters worse, are heating up. Albeit, heating up the bats, not so much the arms, they're still closing ground while we're kind of cooling down a little bit. Lugo looks like our most glaring hole. We might need another set-up arm, you could argue that Crisp is bringing nothing to the plate but his D is winning us games and Crisp, I feel like, has more of a chance to find his pulse at the plate. That's a gut instinct thing, nothing really to back that up numbers wise.

 

Ok, to get to the point, should we pursue a trade? Eat the nine million, maybe move him to a utility role or deal him for grounds crew help. Its possible Furcal could be available. Felipe Lopez on the Nats could be available if they ever have that inevitable fire sale they should have had when they still had Soriano. Caesar Izturis would be available, but I don't know how much of an upgrade that would be. Maybe the best defensive SS in the league, (vizquel and adam everett might disagree). Eckstein would be an easy swap, in the national league he has been hitting around .290-.300 and the cardinals suck. I'm wary about expecting immediate impact from guys coming over from the national league because it is a different game and I think that is a lot of what we're seeing from Drew, there is kind of a lull in production before they really get going, sometimes... look back at OC, he came over and hit .290 with the sox for the rest of the year and caught lightning in a bottle.

 

My take is that Cora is a better alternative than Izturis, Lopez, and Eckstein (maybe, maybe not). Eckstein might be better, it depends what we're looking for. Cora would be better defensively, Eckstein is a more reliable hitter. I think, even if he isn't getting shopped, the Dodgers have a young core brewing, and aren't out of it at all, but maybe possibly we could force a trade for Furcal, but would most likely be overpaying. Eckstein is by far the most likely to become available.

 

I think Lugo needs to be out, I'd be very ok with replacing him with Cora and maybe exploring a trade for a center fielder.

 

El Moderino, you mentioned the guy we need to revamp our team and his name is David Eckstein. Don't let anyone ******** you about being a National Leaguer or his arm being suspect. The little bastard can play baseball, has been a focul point of two WS Titles, hits in the clutch, plays with real heart and somehow always seems to get the job done. Don't mention Izturis unless you love a little squirt hitting fly balls to the leftfielder. As for the moment, put Cora there and hope he gives us some consisistency. As for Crisp, I am one of the few voices screaming in the wilderness--bring ellsbury up and put him at the leadoff spot He cannot possibly be worse at the plate than Crisp has been and with some new youthful energy this young and winning ballplayer could be a big help to us. Crisp has got to go and Lugo has to be benched. Eckstein and Ellsbury and a call-up of Lester as soon as he's ready gives us the kind of club that will win the AL East and advance deep in the Playoffs.

 

The only problem??? Crisp and Lugo are Theo's boys, and with Pena, he will try and hold on to them with all his might trying to justify their acquisition. I think he has a terrifying fear of being shown that he has been wrong. Just my opinion.

[seabeachfred]

His name is Jacoby Ellsbury and he plays for Pawtucket. I don't care what other people say, bring the kid up for a 2nd half run. He gives the Sox the leadoff hitter they need to put everyone in a more appropriate position in the lineup:

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Ortiz

Manny

Drew

Youkilis

Lowell

Varitek

Lugo

 

There is no real solution at SS, but if he's batting 9th then you mitigate his suckiness a little bit, allow him to run more, etc., and take him out of the top of the order. Ellsbury's speed alone will produce some interesting results (he could be a 50-60+ stolen base guy) and will keep CF well-defended.

 

So there's my solution. I would likely also try to bring up Buchholz too, but few people agree with that approach. I think there is a lot to be gained by these young guys being able to be the lowest rungs on the ladder on this team, so to speak. Getting to play on a team with the likes of Schilling, Manny, Ortiz, Varitek, etc., could help that core nucleus of the next few years to gel. The team of the future is undoubtedly going to be comprised of names like Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Papelbon and Buchholz, so like a700 argues, we should make a run while we have THIS group that includes Manny and Lowell and Varitek and Schilling. I think the experienced gained would outweigh any potential temporary loss in performance.

 

Bravo Ex. My thinking exactly. There is no way Ellsbury could be worse than Crisp has been. No way!!!!! He will also give us a legitimate leadoff man. I don't understand this over-protection of our young players with this mantra of they are too inexperienced, they have to get their feet warm. ********!!!!! They can do the job better than the guys we have. I also happen to think Bucholz COULD make the jump. He is that good, that poised, that talented. However, as long as you have an ******* manager who clings to his veterans and has to be pushed by trades or releases to give a young player a chance, I don't this is going to get done and we just might have to have our faces smelling the Yankee asses again this year because of Francona and his pea-in-a-pod partner, Epstein.

[jacksonianmarch]

my god. YOu want Eckstein to replace Lugo. Yikes. BTW, how does 4 yrs of Lugo look these days?

[seabeachfred]

Ellsbury is just starting to get a hang of AAA. You have to let him get settled before you bring him up.

 

Nonsense. Robinson Cano had very little AAA experience when he was brought up in 2005.

From what I remember that worked out OK. Ellsbury is a rare gem; he can thrive because he is a good player, pliable, resourceful and very talented. Like I was on the mark with Pedroia, Ellsbury is the same kind of player. We need him and now. Crisp has got to go.

[Taliesin]

my god. YOu want Eckstein to replace Lugo. Yikes. BTW' date=' how does 4 yrs of Lugo look these days?[/quote']

 

About as good as this:

 

Giambi:

02:$8M,

03:$9M,

04:$10M,

05:$11M,

06:$18M,

07:$21M,

08:$21M,

09:$22M club option ($5M buyout)

Full no-trade clause

 

Pavano

05:$9M,

06:$8M,

07:$10M,

08:$11M,

09:$13M club option

($1.95M buyout)

no-trade clause

 

Kei Igawa

07:$4M,

08:$4M,

09:$4M,

10:$4M,

11:$4M

$26,000,194 for negotiating rights

 

The SS revolving door is starting to resemble the exploding drummers from Spinal Tap however.