New shortstop?

[jacksonianmarch]

We got some production out of Giambi. His 02, 03, 05, and 06 were worth at least 10mil+. Pavano- absolutely correct. Igawa- certainly starting to look like a poor move, but we shall see.

[BSN07]

Alot of you are missing the point with Ellsbury. Yes he could play CF as well as Crisp, and yes he could probably do more with the bat. But if you bring him up as a replacement this year your putting alot of pressure on a very young guy. Yes I believe he could handle it, but I would rather see him play all year in AAA and have his comfort level as hi as possible. Bringing him up now could work out greator it could end up crushing his confidence and setting his mental game(Hansen) back. I think they could find an adequate replacement for CF for this seaosn without having to rush Jacoby. Believe me I want to see this guy play, but Id rather see a guy thats polished and for sure is ready to come up take the CF starting position and stay there.

 

I for one think they should persue someone like Aaron Rowand for the late season run. Good D, Good bat, has playoff exp. and has won a title. I don´t think they would have to give up a ton for this guy considering hes a FA at the end of the season.

[jacksonianmarch]

Aaron Rowand is now in a pennant chase. He's going nowhere.

[a700hitter]

Yes Damon will be pretty good the 1st couple years of his contract. But hes got Bernie Williams written all over him' date=' and theres no way I'd want that on the team. Damon's body is going to fall apart, the signs are there. Damon going to NY hurt us short term(2 yrs) but in the long run it will be a smart choice.[/quote']

The rumors of Damon's demise are premature. Yes, he has been a little banged up this year, but he still played. Now, he's healthy and back in CF. He had a great year last year. He's only 34. That's not that old. When he's 36 he'll be better than Crisp today.

[Rdsxmbnt]

When he's 36 he'll be better than Crisp today.

 

As will practically every player in baseball, a sub .600 OPS put into perspective is incredibly bad.

[example1]

Alot of you are missing the point with Ellsbury. Yes he could play CF as well as Crisp, and yes he could probably do more with the bat. But if you bring him up as a replacement this year your putting alot of pressure on a very young guy. Yes I believe he could handle it, but I would rather see him play all year in AAA and have his comfort level as hi as possible. Bringing him up now could work out greator it could end up crushing his confidence and setting his mental game(Hansen) back. I think they could find an adequate replacement for CF for this seaosn without having to rush Jacoby. Believe me I want to see this guy play, but Id rather see a guy thats polished and for sure is ready to come up take the CF starting position and stay there.

 

I for one think they should persue someone like Aaron Rowand for the late season run. Good D, Good bat, has playoff exp. and has won a title. I don?t think they would have to give up a ton for this guy considering hes a FA at the end of the season.

 

And who would you deal for a player like Aaron Rowand? Michael Bowden? I don't think so.

 

I don't buy any of it. I don't think that Ellsbury is just going to suddenly lose the ability to hit the ball if he has a few bad games. I don't think he is suddenly going to stop being able to get on base at a decent rate or swing at bad pitches out of the zone.

 

He is not just an average athelete. As soon as he is on the Red Sox he will be the best athelete on the big league club. While you treat prospects lightly you don't treat all prospects lightly if they have shown the ability. I understand why people are hesitant about it, but I also think that the Fenway faithful tend to have more sympathy for rookies and home grown talent than overpaid underachievers. If he comes through a few times down a stretch run then we're talking about having a minor Fenway cult. I could give you a list of other players who were more than productive at 23, but I would be accused of cherry picking. If Ellsbury played on any number of other teams he would already be in the bigs, the sox need him and own him, so he should come up by the end of the season and the sox should NOT sell the farm to get some mediocre CF who will not entrench himself with Sox fans.

[jacksonianmarch]

Example, when you have a young core like you have and really no mid guys, you may need to headline a deal with someone of quality to get anything done. And with Beckett and DMats, you have two young pitchers for a LONG time. Lester plus Buchholz gives you 2 other slots and Bowden at this point would be the 5th. We'll see. But in terms of dealability, none of the mid range guys have progressed to a point of them being worth anything.

[example1]

Example' date=' when you have a young core like you have and really no mid guys, you may need to headline a deal with someone of quality to get anything done. And with Beckett and DMats, you have two young pitchers for a LONG time. Lester plus Buchholz gives you 2 other slots and Bowden at this point would be the 5th. We'll see. But in terms of dealability, none of the mid range guys have progressed to a point of them being worth anything.[/quote']

 

I don't WANT to get anything done.

 

You're talking about dealing Bowden to get a guy who can be the stop-gap CF until next season? Even if they deal Ellsbury to get someone there are very few players who people here can guaranatee will become/remain stars with the Sox. Coco Crisp had legitimate tools and certainly projected to be at least AVERAGE in CF. Everyone here pretends that Theo somehow should have known that Crisp was going to be a bust, yet I defy them to produce a name of someone who is available and who is a lock to do better than Crisp. Aaron Rowand? No thanks, I don't trust it.

 

People need to be patient. We can have our cake and eat it too. We have a guy who fits all the descriptions of what we're looking for. He has what we like about Crisp (speed, defense) and has been hitting nearly .300 RECENTLY, not 3 years ago.

[a700hitter]

Coco Crisp had legitimate tools and certainly projected to be at least AVERAGE in CF. Everyone here pretends that Theo somehow should have known that Crisp was going to be a bust' date=' yet I defy them to produce a name of someone who is available and who is a lock to do better than Crisp. Aaron Rowand? No thanks, I don't trust it.[/quote']I agree that there is no one available right now. Maybe at the trading deadline we can rent one of the 3 FA CF's.

[example1]

I agree that there is no one available right now. Maybe at the trading deadline we can rent one of the 3 FA CF's.

 

What expense are you willing to go to to get a guy for a few months before giving Ellsbury (or even Moss or Murphy) his shot. Ellsbury is ONE MONTH younger than Pedroia. Pedroia is up, Ellsbury has a higher upside and his tools (speed/fielding) are going to be there whether he is hitting or not. He is hitting in the minors now, as he has been his entire MiLB career, and his entire college career, and his entire high school career. He gets on base, has a good eye and beats out mistakes.

[a700hitter]

What expense are you willing to go to to get a guy for a few months before giving Ellsbury (or even Moss or Murphy) his shot. Ellsbury is ONE MONTH younger than Pedroia. Pedroia is up' date=' Ellsbury has a higher upside and his tools (speed/fielding) are going to be there whether he is hitting or not. He is hitting in the minors now, as he has been his entire MiLB career, and his entire college career, and his entire high school career. He gets on base, has a good eye and beats out mistakes.[/quote']A couple of long shot prospects-- not top echelon.

[example1]

A couple of long shot prospects-- not top echelon.

 

There is a HUGE area between these two statements. Longshot prospects are prospects who are drafted and never make the majors. Not-top-echelon prospects are simply those who are good enough to make the majors but not necessarily the most highly touted. I am fine if Ellsbury and Pedroia turn into above average major league players who stay healthy and productive. This team doesn't need Mickey Mantle in CF, they need someone who gets on and puts up consistently productive ABs.

 

Your standards for opening the door to prospects is too high a700. You won't talk about a 2B if he isn't Chase Utley, when Utley is once in a generation. I understand not taking anyone off the table in terms of trade talk, and your hesitance to hold onto a guy like Buchholz or Ellsbury when offered a legitimate Major Leaguer. I don't understand your lack of a gray area in terms of what a productive prospect is worth and what they can offer your team. You dis Youkilis, you dis Pedroia and you're dissing Ellsbury even though very strong arguments could be made that all three are highly productive players given their positions and strengths. These are above average players who are making the most of their tools. When players come up who have better tools (young guys like Lars Anderson) I expect the philosophy of OBP and patience will have stuck, and the power will remain. This farm system is promoting and producing a certain type of hitter. I think we can expect that to continue with someone like Ellsbury.

[a700hitter]

There is a HUGE area between these two statements. Longshot prospects are prospects who are drafted and never make the majors. Not-top-echelon prospects are simply those who are good enough to make the majors but not necessarily the most highly touted. I am fine if Ellsbury and Pedroia turn into above average major league players who stay healthy and productive. This team doesn't need Mickey Mantle in CF, they need someone who gets on and puts up consistently productive ABs.

 

Your standards for opening the door to prospects is too high a700. You won't talk about a 2B if he isn't Chase Utley, when Utley is once in a generation. I understand not taking anyone off the table in terms of trade talk, and your hesitance to hold onto a guy like Buchholz or Ellsbury when offered a legitimate Major Leaguer. I don't understand your lack of a gray area in terms of what a productive prospect is worth and what they can offer your team. You dis Youkilis, you dis Pedroia and you're dissing Ellsbury even though very strong arguments could be made that all three are highly productive players given their positions and strengths. These are above average players who are making the most of their tools. When players come up who have better tools (young guys like Lars Anderson) I expect the philosophy of OBP and patience will have stuck, and the power will remain. This farm system is promoting and producing a certain type of hitter. I think we can expect that to continue with someone like Ellsbury.

as you said there is a big area between long shot and top echelon. The FO is paid to figure out which guy in between will make it and which will be career minor leaguers. That's how good FO's make their money. They trade prospects that never make it for top players.

 

Edit: I don't dis Ellsbury. I think he is a big talent, but he's probably not ready to step in and produce this season. That's why I'd consider a rent a player for the second half.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

As far as rushing Ellsbury.....yes we should rush him. It may not be fair but next season you have Ichiro Suzuki, Andrew Jones, and Torii Hunter hitting the market. The Red Sox should make a decision if Jacoby Ellsbury is the true CF of the future (I hope he is) and let the kid play. If he shows good signs then we are set (and he will contribute more than Crisp immediately). If it turns out he is not the right fit, then the Red Sox are showcasing his talent at the major league level.

 

Now how does one fix the disaster at SS?

[jacksonianmarch]

As far as rushing Ellsbury.....yes we should rush him. It may not be fair but next season you have Ichiro Suzuki, Andrew Jones, and Torii Hunter hitting the market. The Red Sox should make a decision if Jacoby Ellsbury is the true CF of the future (I hope he is) and let the kid play. If he shows good signs then we are set (and he will contribute more than Crisp immediately). If it turns out he is not the right fit, then the Red Sox are showcasing his talent at the major league level.

 

Now how does one fix the disaster at SS?

 

if he doesnt do well, showcasing hurts his value. If he does well, then you will keep him up. If you really want to "showcase" him, you keep him in AAA and let him dominate.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

if he doesnt do well' date=' showcasing hurts his value. If he does well, then you will keep him up. If you really want to "showcase" him, you keep him in AAA and let him dominate.[/quote']

 

Who cares about "showcasing" him in AAA when we have no idea what he could provide at the MLB level. What doesn't work for one team could work for another. Either way I see Ellsbury being able to perform and either show the Red Sox FO what they need or another team will see something they could use.

 

Remember that if the kid comes to the MLB level and collapses under the pressure of playing in Boston...he is no different than Edgar Renteria, Coco Crisp, Julio Lugo, etc....players we don't want. You either have it or you don't. The earlier this kid comes up, the more time he has to show something.

 

More important than just "whats good for Ellsbury"....I want to win...and I believe he can help us win more games than some other guys on this team.

[example1]

if he doesnt do well' date=' showcasing hurts his value. If he does well, then you will keep him up. If you really want to "showcase" him, you keep him in AAA and let him dominate.[/quote']

 

Showcasing his talents is a secondary goal. Look at Scott Podsednik, for example. He was traded with Luis Vizcaino for Carlos Lee. What did Podsednik have going for him? Well, he was a CF with plus plus speed. That's about it. Ellsbury is superior to Podsednik in every category except perhaps SBs. If he struggles and the Sox want to move him there will be a purchaser.

[jacksonianmarch]

Showcasing his talents is a secondary goal. Look at Scott Podsednik' date=' for example. He was traded with Luis Vizcaino for Carlos Lee. What did Podsednik have going for him? Well, he was a CF with plus plus speed. That's about it. Ellsbury is superior to Podsednik in every category except perhaps SBs. If he struggles and the Sox want to move him there will be a purchaser.[/quote']

 

I agree. But right now, Ellsbury may be the centerpiece of a package trade for a B level major leaguer. If you bring him up and he stinks, he may be a part of the package for a B level major league, but not the centerpiece. You have to figure, Pedroia went from having moderate trade value to NO trade value just from the last 2 months of the season. Now, the kid is probably jumping into the moderate+ trade value eschelon. A poor audition can really turn some people sour, OR give backing to the sox getting raped in a future deal.

[ORS]

Pedroia had a longer and more pronounced adjustment period at each level. Ellsbury, to this point, has hit every level and performed, so concerns about 2+ months of finding it at this level may be reduced.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I agree. But right now' date=' Ellsbury may be the centerpiece of a package trade for a B level major leaguer. If you bring him up and he stinks, he may be a part of the package for a B level major league, but not the centerpiece. You have to figure, Pedroia went from having moderate trade value to NO trade value just from the last 2 months of the season. Now, the kid is probably jumping into the moderate+ trade value eschelon. A poor audition can really turn some people sour, OR give backing to the sox getting raped in a future deal.[/quote']

 

How can you possibly know any of that? Where did you see that Dustin Pedroia had no trade value because of his first two months at the MLB level? Are GMs really that stupid or are you just saying this because its that way in fantasy baseball? The Red Sox made him the starting 2B after seeing that in the final two months of the season....I think the guy still had plenty of value.

 

Not to mention you should consider the team....this is the Boston Red Sox so if they can't make anything good come out of a Jacoby Ellsbury situation, who cares! Life moves on with the Red Sox and they go after a free agent. RIGHT NOW...in this current moment they have a big issue with the offense and need a jump start....Ellsbury makes sense. If he played SS then he would still make sense. Any other position...he wouldn't make sense.

[jacksonianmarch]

How can you possibly know any of that? Where did you see that Dustin Pedroia had no trade value because of his first two months at the MLB level? Are GMs really that stupid or are you just saying this because its that way in fantasy baseball? The Red Sox made him the starting 2B after seeing that in the final two months of the season....I think the guy still had plenty of value.

 

obviously I can only go off what most of the scouting sites think, but Pedroia dropped on many a scouting list from mid 50s to off the list or even in the high 90s based solely off the major league performance.

[jacksonianmarch]

Pedroia had a longer and more pronounced adjustment period at each level. Ellsbury' date=' to this point, has hit every level and performed, so concerns about 2+ months of finding it at this level may be reduced.[/quote']

 

this is the kind of post that I have been looking for. I did not know this about Pedroia.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

obviously I can only go off what most of the scouting sites think' date=' but Pedroia dropped on many a scouting list from mid 50s to off the list or even in the high 90s based solely off the major league performance.[/quote']

 

Shows how much they know wouldn't you say? Thats the issue with scouting reports from anyone. Young players cannot be judged on such short term appearances. So if Jacoby Ellsbury was to come up and struggle....I don't think many teams would forget who he is.

[scaffolds]

Most of the posters on this board shouldn't complain about Lugo's play, because you guys wanted for the Sox to sign him in the off season, instead of resigning Gonzalez which was the correct move at the time. Gonzalez hitting for a 250 ave and some power plus his defense, would had been a more valuable contributor than what Lugo has done.

[example1]

You could be right. Or we could be talking about the black hole hitting in the SS spot in the order. Who the hell truly thought that Gonzo would suddenly put up a 20 HR season? I wouldn't bet on it happening again next year, or the year after that. He's just not that good.

 

Lugo hasn't been that good either, but I'm willing to give him some time. Complaints about all of these guys will disappear if they produce later in the season and help this team win. If the Sox had lost in game 4 of the 04 season, people would have turned around and criticized the Nomar move and would have said Cabrera is a moderate solution at best. Face it, we had elite production from Nomar and see that level of production in other places and feel like we should have it.

[example1]

I agree. But right now' date=' Ellsbury may be the centerpiece of a package trade for a B level major leaguer. If you bring him up and he stinks, he may be a part of the package for a B level major league, but not the centerpiece. You have to figure, Pedroia went from having moderate trade value to NO trade value just from the last 2 months of the season. Now, the kid is probably jumping into the moderate+ trade value eschelon. A poor audition can really turn some people sour, OR give backing to the sox getting raped in a future deal.[/quote']

 

If it gets to the point where Ellsbury is not good enough to eventually be the Sox CF and they are needing to trade him, then I will be willing to move a higher value minor leaguer to get that need filled. I have enough faith that this won't be the case that I would take that risk without blinking.

 

Ellsbury will be an impact player for this team, not just okay. They won't trade him if he starts slowly. They will let him play through it and knowingly enjoy the benefits when he gets going. I truly don't think the Sox FO was worried about Pedroia's start. THEY weren't worried. Others may have lowered his value, but the Sox knew what they had.

 

Evidenced by Ellsbury's quick ascent through the system I think the sox know what they have with him too.

[a700hitter]

Lugo is the 4th SS in 4 years--- really 5 if you count Nomah. Maybe next year the Sox will lure ARod who will opt out of his contract and the parade of Shortstops will end.

[ksushi]

I'm favor of Cora taking over for the time being, eat that awful nine mil. for Lugo, and wait until you have that sure thing option that comes around every now and then that can hold the fort down for four or five years. We blew it when we let OCab go.

[BSN07]

Can we send him to AAA...

 

This might be an all season thing, and we might have to hope for next yr. But its baseball, he could all the sudden get it, and get hot. We will have to see...

[SCM33]

I say we have to stick with him. Hes absolutely awful......but we seriously need some stability at the SS position. I dont want to get rid of another, then the following year say once again..."man we shoulda just kept lugo" just like i did with ocab, renteria, and now agon. His track record shows he will come out of it.....and we are the best team in baseball.....lets just stick with him a little longer and hopefully we are rewarded like the way we have been with Drew and Pedroia and Crisp lately. All 3 were pretty terrible at some point, and have all turned it around.

 

Lets just wait it out.