The Official Bash Tito Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

You know that pitching in a 10-1 game is a whole different ball game than a 3-3 ball game in the 8th inning. Mike Timlin was so bad the second half of last year in those situations' date=' so why is it stupid to want to see how Timlin would pitch in a meaningful situation this season?[/quote']

 

you dont work a guy back in like that. You have to prove that he can get major league batters out on a regular basis before you throw him into the fire. This is what I had been proposing out of Farnsworth. Both need to get their motion down and their stuff working and THEN be put into pressure situations. I am telling you right now, I'll feel very nice to see Timlin coming in this weekend in a close game.

[CrespoBlows]

You know that pitching in a 10-1 game is a whole different ball game than a 3-3 ball game in the 8th inning.

 

How is Mike Timlin going to pitch differently? Is he going to throw a slower fastball because he's up by 9? Does he suddenly lose his curveball?

 

so why is it stupid to want to see how Timlin would pitch in a meaningful situation this season?

 

Mike Timlin was so bad the second half of last year in those situations,

 

That's why.

[MANNYHOF24]

We wont score a lot on Sunday' date=' I guarantee that. I think tomorrow will be a battle. I think Saturday will be a high scoring game and we are gonna get whitewashed on Sunday. We are terrible against "rookie" pitchers that we havent seen before. But typically, we dominate them the 2nd time around. So, if I was a betting man, I'd bet sunday for the sox HARD.[/quote']

 

You really think you are going tp dominate a guy like DiceK who has great stuff? You also think you are going to crush Beckett? IMO he is a completely different pitcher this season. Last year he threw 73% FB, this year he his throwin only 63% which is a big difference. I think you will be suprised by Josh this season.

[jacksonianmarch]

You really think you are going tp dominate a guy like DiceK who has great stuff? You also think you are going to crush Beckett? IMO he is a completely different pitcher this season. Last year he threw 73% FB' date=' this year he his throwin only 63% which is a big difference. I think you will be suprised by Josh this season.[/quote']

 

I think DMats dominates us in the Fens. I also am not sold on Beckett. We will wear him down. Unless you guys blow it open early, we are gonna see that pen in a serious capacity on Saturday. That is why there will be a high scoring game IMO. Cause one thing this team does is fight off good pitches. Beckett has faced a lot of teams that dont have that capability to this point. And the yankees are the best offense you will see this yr, even if Matsui is out.

[MANNYHOF24]

How is Mike Timlin going to pitch differently? Is he going to throw a slower fastball because he's up by 9? Does he suddenly lose his curveball?

 

 

 

 

 

That's why.

 

Come on Crespo, the hitters are more focused when the score is close. He is still going to throw the same, but I just think it's a different focus level when the game is close. I know he sucked last year, but maybe he was just struggling with injuries that werent annoucned, we have to give him at least a little chance to prove him self in big spots this year. If he sucks then he shouldn't be used, but he needs that chance.

[MANNYHOF24]

I think DMats dominates us in the Fens. I also am not sold on Beckett. We will wear him down. Unless you guys blow it open early' date=' we are gonna see that pen in a serious capacity on Saturday. That is why there will be a high scoring game IMO. Cause one thing this team does is fight off good pitches. Beckett has faced a lot of teams that dont have that capability to this point. And the yankees are the best offense you will see this yr, even if Matsui is out.[/quote']

 

I think you are wrong about Beckett, I think he could win a Cy Young this year IMO, he has the stuff he just has to trust his other pitches.

[jacksonianmarch]

Come on Crespo' date=' the hitters are more focused when the score is close. He is still going to throw the same, but I just think it's a different focus level when the game is close. I know he sucked last year, but maybe he was just struggling with injuries that werent annoucned, we have to give him at least a little chance to prove him self in big spots this year. If he sucks then he shouldn't be used, but he needs that chance.[/quote']

 

Struggling with injuries? Timlin was AWFUL last season once the dog days of summer hit. His sinker was up, his offspeed stuff was terrible and his confidence was shaken. Add that to his age and his obscene workload recently and he is likely an old horse heading to the glue factory.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think you are wrong about Beckett' date=' I think he could win a Cy Young this year IMO, he has the stuff he just has to trust his other pitches.[/quote']

 

He could win a CY, but he is also the type of pitcher that we love to face. He can get a bit wild, is very fastball oriented and loses his offspeed stuff when hit around a bit. The guys like Schilling and Matsuzaka can go to their offspeed stuff and locate it when they are in trouble. Beckett cannot. Hence, he is predictable. The days he dominated us last yr, his curve was perfect. The days we killed him, his curve was not. Nobody else on your staff is THAT reliant on one pitch for his success.

[ORS]

I also am not sold on Beckett. We will wear him down.

You are going to eat your words here. He looks nothing like last year. This is more of your overreliance on the last sample (last year). He's just not the same pitcher you saw last year, if you would have watched him, you'd know that.

 

If there's any pitcher I'm worried about you getting to, it's Schilling. He's still pitching like a power pitcher, but without the power. His location has been spot on the last two starts, so he'll get some outs on pitchers pitches, but when your hitters guess right they will have success.

[seabeachfred]

Everyone seems to remember how lousy Timlin was the second half of last year. Very very true, but there was an oasis in that disastrous summer. In the four game Yankee series in September Timlin saved three straight games for the Red Sox. I was there, thank God, instead of in Boston for that five game debacle. If Timlin can pitch effectively, we have him Okajima, Donnelly and maybe Romero for a pretty good bullpen corps. At least now our pen has thrown effectively. Just the same I would love to see a complete game or two the next three days.

[jacksonianmarch]

Everyone seems to remember how lousy Timlin was the second half of last year. Very very true' date=' but there was an oasis in that disastrous summer. In the four game Yankee series in September Timlin saved three straight games for the Red Sox. I was there, thank God, instead of in Boston for that five game debacle. If Timlin can pitch effectively, we have him Okajima, Donnelly and maybe Romero for a pretty good bullpen corps. At least now our pen has thrown effectively. Just the same I would love to see a complete game or two the next three days.[/quote']

 

Yeah, he was simply amazing in that 3 game span. Dont think about the whole 6+ ERA from July on though. Nice short sample sizes in the middle of a horrible larger sample size doesnt do much for you.

[seabeachfred]

I think DMats dominates us in the Fens. I also am not sold on Beckett. We will wear him down. Unless you guys blow it open early' date=' we are gonna see that pen in a serious capacity on Saturday. That is why there will be a high scoring game IMO. Cause one thing this team does is fight off good pitches. Beckett has faced a lot of teams that dont have that capability to this point. And the yankees are the best offense you will see this yr, even if Matsui is out.[/quote']

 

No matter how you or I slice it Jackson the Red Sox should win two of the games this weekend PERIOD!!!!!!!! That is what I think is going to happen, though I would love to take your gang three straight to make up just a tid for that series last August. Vengence is mine speaketh The Lord, so it is up to my team to do it on their own because the Big Guys is neutral in all of this. Red Sox pride must prevail.

[jacksonianmarch]

You are going to eat your words here. He looks nothing like last year. This is more of your overreliance on the last sample (last year). He's just not the same pitcher you saw last year, if you would have watched him, you'd know that.

 

If there's any pitcher I'm worried about you getting to, it's Schilling. He's still pitching like a power pitcher, but without the power. His location has been spot on the last two starts, so he'll get some outs on pitchers pitches, but when your hitters guess right they will have success.

 

Last yr, through 3 games, Beckett was filthy. He had a LOWER ERA last yr at this point (1.28). Once he got hit around, the rest is history. This will be his game to make it or break it.

[CrespoBlows]

I know he sucked last year' date=' but maybe he was just struggling with injuries that werent annoucned, we have to give him at least a little chance to prove him self in big spots this year. If he sucks then he shouldn't be used, but he needs that chance.[/quote']

 

This is absolute lunacy.

 

You are actually justifying the use of a bad pitcher in a big spot.

[MANNYHOF24]

This is absolute lunacy.

 

You are actually justifying the use of a bad pitcher in a big spot.

 

So are you saying Curt Schilling should not be in the rotation because he sucked after the allstar break? It's not lunacy, Timlin can still be a quality pitcher, he threw the ball well today. Did you watch the game? His fastball was 92-94 and he had good movement, he let's kill a guy because he had one bad half. I am not saying he will come back but he deserves a chance to prove him self.

[ORS]

Last yr' date=' through 3 games, Beckett was filthy. He had a LOWER ERA last yr at this point (1.28). Once he got hit around, the rest is history. This will be his game to make it or break it.[/quote']

Stay on topic. Did I say anything about his stats? No. He's completely different. Even last year he wasn't throwing the curve as much or as effectively, and he didn't throw the change at all. He's different. You are the one who hasn't watched him. And the 3 game parallel is as meaningless as the JD Drew every other year injury theory. Sure, you can think there's a trend, but there's no causal link.

[jacksonianmarch]

Stay on topic. Did I say anything about his stats? No. He's completely different. Even last year he wasn't throwing the curve as much or as effectively' date=' and he didn't throw the change at all. He's different. You are the one who hasn't watched him. And the 3 game parallel is as meaningless as the JD Drew every other year injury theory. Sure, you can think there's a trend, but there's no causal link.[/quote']

 

Well, we get a chance to see it. You never seem to buy the whole, "he looks so much different" argument when I use it, so I am just throwing it back at you. Again, we are a different offense than what you will face anytime this year.

 

As I said before, Beckett is so reliant on one pitch that he is very prone to meltdown. If that curve is bouncing and he isnt locating it, we will destroy him. Nobody else on your staff is that way, they all could go down 1 pitch and be serviceable. If he locates the curve, we may be in trouble. But I think we wait him out, get our pitches and drive him out of the game early. Hell, the royals did it, why cant we?

[MANNYHOF24]

Well, we get a chance to see it. You never seem to buy the whole, "he looks so much different" argument when I use it, so I am just throwing it back at you. Again, we are a different offense than what you will face anytime this year.

 

As I said before, Beckett is so reliant on one pitch that he is very prone to meltdown. If that curve is bouncing and he isnt locating it, we will destroy him. Nobody else on your staff is that way, they all could go down 1 pitch and be serviceable. If he locates the curve, we may be in trouble. But I think we wait him out, get our pitches and drive him out of the game early. Hell, the royals did it, why cant we?

In his last two starts he has located the curve. The biggest difference is the change which sits around 85-86 instead of 89-90. That is a huge difference IMO.

[ORS]

Well' date=' we get a chance to see it. You never seem to buy the whole, "he looks so much different" argument when I use it, so I am just throwing it back at you. Again, we are a different offense than what you will face anytime this year.[/quote']

When did I do this?

 

Hell, the royals did it, why cant we?

Against Beckett? Check the boxscores and get back to me.

 

EDIT: You were right, they did chase him early.

[CrespoBlows]

So are you saying Curt Schilling should not be in the rotation because he sucked after the allstar break?

 

No, and this is a stupid point. You should know why.

 

Timlin can still be a quality pitcher,

 

Sure, he can, but it's probably improbable that he will. His WHIP the last two years were 1.32 and 1.47. He's not a 8th inning pitcher anymore.

 

he threw the ball well today. Did you watch the game? His fastball was 92-94 and he had good movement,

 

Good velocity, not a lot of movement.

 

he let's kill a guy because he had one bad half. I am not saying he will come back but he deserves a chance to prove him self.

 

Not in these kind of situations. Show that he can pitch well, then he can be elevated.

[jacksonianmarch]

When did I do this?

 

 

Against Beckett? Check the boxscores and get back to me.

 

EDIT: You were right, they did chase him early.

 

5IP 1ER. I didnt say we'd hammer him, just that we will grind him.

[jacksonianmarch]

btw, solid argument tonight. I dont think either of us are wrong right now. We'll find out on Saturday.

[seabeachfred]

Very interesting posts guys and I am glad that I am on the sidelines in these exchanges, but the crux of all this written verbiage is what happens the next three days on that mound at Fenway. We have been getting great pitching up to now but this time we go against our arch enemies and it will high noon for Schilling, Beckett and Matsuzaka to either crap or get off the pot. Crude as that sounds that's the way it is. To me a lot will be validated if they go out there and stop the Yankees cold. If not, we might be back to square one for another round he's better, no he's not, he got it together, no he doesn't. Again, I expect our team to win two of three. I want nothing less than that.

[CrespoBlows]

Why the f*** are our two lowest OBP guys batting 1st and 2nd?

 

I can get Lugo, because he owns Fenway, but Crisp? You can bat 9th.

[MANNYHOF24]

Why the f*** are our two lowest OBP guys batting 1st and 2nd?

 

I can get Lugo, because he owns Fenway, but Crisp? You can bat 9th.

 

With Ortiz out, what would you suggest the batting order to be? Drew second, and Lowell hitting fifth? I have actually been thinking lately, that when everyone is in the lineup, Drew should leadoff and have Coco and Lugo at the bottom of the order. But why change anything right now when we are 35-15 and 13.5 games ahead of the Yankees.

 

Edit- maybe when Ortiz is out we could bat Pedroia 2nd, he has really been hammering the cover off the ball lately.

[seabeachfred]

Eventually Pedroia will be the second man in the order; I just don't know if it is wise to make that move now even though my gut feeling is that he is ready and able to do it. He might have a comfort zone down in the 9th spot and his hitting has really come around as I thought it would. Crisp in that spot, though, is a disaster waiting to happen. He needs to bat as low in the lineup as the circumstances will permit. I still hope Lugo can make it as our leadoff hitter this year, however. He does bring some speed and power to the table in the leadoff role. I think eventually he will be fine there. If not, then we must consider some alternatives. We're doing well the way things are going now. Do we push the envelope to see if things can be even more productive for us, or do we leave well enough along now that things are moving smoothly and keep things the way they are???? That is what I'm sure the Board of Strategy must be mulling over about now.

[CrespoBlows]

With Ortiz out, what would you suggest the batting order to be? Drew second, and Lowell hitting fifth? I have actually been thinking lately, that when everyone is in the lineup, Drew should leadoff and have Coco and Lugo at the bottom of the order. But why change anything right now when we are 35-15 and 13.5 games ahead of the Yankees.

 

Edit- maybe when Ortiz is out we could bat Pedroia 2nd, he has really been hammering the cover off the ball lately.

 

We could score more runs if we put higher OBP guys at the top of the lineup.

 

1. Youk

2. Drew

 

OR

 

1. Youk

2. Pedroia

[mosox]

He did it again Sunday in Arizona, Lugo and Crisp, 1 and 2. What in the Wide, Wide World of Sports does Tito see in these guys?

[RedSoxRooter]

speed?

[seabeachfred]

He did it again Sunday in Arizona' date=' Lugo and Crisp, 1 and 2. What in the Wide, Wide World of Sports does Tito see in these guys?[/quote']

 

You must understand something Mo. Francona is a very stubborn man who will keep pushing the envelope until he is proven right, or, in most cases, until it completely blows up in his face. That is why he and Theo get along so well. They're two peas in a pod, unwilling to admit mistakes and forever trying to piss into a gale force wind.

 

As most of you know this is only my seventh season as a Red Sox fanatic, but in that time I have had to stomach Jimy Williams, Joe Kerrigan, Grady "f***in" Little, and now Francona. I have also followed the Red Sox goings on for longer than that as a non-fan and one thing has struck me like a blow to the kidneys. Time and again they seem to hire shithole managers who cannot compare to some of the men they go up against. Dick Williams was the last really good manager they hired with maybe Kevin Kennedy adequate. The rest of them are been a pile of s*** for the most part.:thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown