2007 Spring Training Game Thread

[example1]

I forgot what a Theo fanboy you are. Who is pointing out his imperfections. It just doesn't mean much for him to say that a guy has the best stuff of anyone he's drafted. Also' date=' I said I would move Bucholz and or Bowden for a current top of the rotation starter. Only a fool would not with good ML starting pitching being at a premium.[/quote']

 

But if, as you indicate, these guys are completely unproven and their minor league numbers don't mean anything, why wouldn't you just trade them for someone who has some MLB experience?

 

I'm not a Theo fanboy, I just think that his assessment not only is better than yours or mine (because he--unlike us--has seen Buchholz more than the 10 second clip I saw of his start on the news the other day) but it also is the reason that the Sox do what they do. Therefore it is relevant to look at it instead of bitching about guys you haven't seen, as if all minor leaguers are the same.

 

For what its worth, Buchholz can hit 97 on the gun, apparently has a K-Rod like curveball (also verified by Castiglione during the start the other game) and outran Jacoby Ellsbury in a race last year. He also has X-Ray vision.

[a700hitter]

I know it's only ST' date=' but he makes the game look so easy. Our 3/4/5 is going to chew pitchers up.[/quote']Drew is very smooth.

[example1]

Well 700 lets just say Santana comes available if the Twins are nowhere in sight of contention by the All-Star Break. I must say I wouldnt mind if the Sox offered a package of Bucholz & Ellsbury for him

 

Nobody would deny that. But that's not the same as saying, essentially, that the GM's opinion doesn't matter because he's not as old as a700 and hasn't been watching the Red Sox for as long. I think those points are totally irrelevant to whether or not we should take Theo's words seriously.

[ORS]

Coco's getting it together at the right time.

[TheKilo]

Well 700 lets just say Santana comes available if the Twins are nowhere in sight of contention by the All-Star Break. I must say I wouldnt mind if the Sox offered a package of Bucholz & Ellsbury for him

 

Duh?

 

It might take a complete raping of the farm system to get Santana. And even then it might not be enough.

[MANNYHOF24]

Crisp with a two run single, the offense has really come together here nicely these last two days.

[RedSoxRooter]

Drew is very smooth.

 

It must kill you that Theo has loved him for forever.

[a700hitter]

But if' date=' as you indicate, these guys are completely unproven and their minor league numbers don't mean anything, why wouldn't you just trade them for someone who has some MLB experience?[/quote']Because you try to maximize the value of your assets. If he is a top prospect, you try to get something valuable in return. Starters are more valuable than relievers, so I would try to get a top starter.

I'm not a Theo fanboy' date=' I just think that his assessment not only is better than yours or mine (because he--unlike us--has seen Buchholz more than the 10 second clip I saw of his start on the news the other day) but it also is the reason that the Sox do what they do. Therefore it is relevant to look at it instead of bitching about guys you haven't seen, as if all minor leaguers are the same.[/quote']Theo made a positive statement about the guy and you are all giddy that he will be a star? I am not criticizing Theo, and I am not saying that I don't like the kid, because as you point out, I haven't seen him throw. I am just saying that we shouldn't put much stock in Theo's statement. It doesn't mean that he will not turn around and trade the kid in a blink if he can get the right deal.

[TheKilo]

Theo made a positive statement about the guy and you are all giddy that he will be a star? I am not criticizing Theo' date=' and I am not saying that I don't like the kid, because as you point out, I haven't seen him throw. I am just saying that we shouldn't put much stock in Theo's statement. It doesn't mean that he will not turn around and trade the kid in a blink if he can get the right deal.[/quote']

 

I agree. He has to get the right deal though, and that's a big reason why I thought the Beckett deal was so good.

 

edit - I'm talking in terms of getting proven MLB talent for prospects.

[riverside sluggers]

Im not sure how to calculate batting average but JD Drew ends his hot ST with 16 hits in 45 ABs

[TheKilo]

Im not sure how to calculate batting average but JD Drew ends his hot ST with 16 hits in 45 ABs

 

Umm

 

16/45.

[ORS]

Suspect pitch call to a guy that loves the inside FB. Burrell was sitting dead-red there and he jacked it.

[a700hitter]

Nobody would deny that. But that's not the same as saying' date=' essentially, that the GM's opinion doesn't matter because he's not as old as a700 and hasn't been watching the Red Sox for as long. I think those points are totally irrelevant to whether or not we should take Theo's words seriously.[/quote']When did I say Theo's opinion doesn't matter, and when have I raised his age as issue? Please point me to a post where I criticized his age. Maybe I didn't make it clear in my other posts, but I am not disparaging Theo's opinion. I am saying that it needs to be put in perspective: a. there have not been that many gem pitchers in the organization in recent years, so there isn't much to compare him to. b. it was a single complimentary statement by the GM. It doesn't mean that Theo thinks the kid will be a star. It was just a quote in an interview. Let's not start ironing Clemens # 21 (edit) for him.

[a700hitter]

It must kill you that Theo has loved him for forever.

...and that would bother me because...?:dunno:

[example1]

I am not criticizing Theo' date='[/b'] and I am not saying that I don't like the kid, because as you point out, I haven't seen him throw. I am just saying that we shouldn't put much stock in Theo's statement. It doesn't mean that he will not turn around and trade the kid in a blink if he can get the right deal.

 

You don't see how saying essentially 'he's not trustworthy in terms of judging baseball talent' is criticizing someone who's job is GM of a baseball team? If you were a lawyer and I said "don't listen to a700, he doesn't know what he's talking about in legal matters" wouldn't you take that as criticism? I sure would.

 

I'm not giddy about Buchholz, but I'm not ready to trade a pitcher who has + command, 4 solid pitches and the ability to hit 97 on the gun either. Given that the sox can have him for 6 seasons at an absurdly cheap price there is no reason to trade him except for in extreme circumstances.

 

But again, don't listen to what I say. He might not throw what Theo says he throws and he might not actually hit 97. He could be a soft tossing lefty for all we know. Minor leaguers are entirely impossible to evaluate.

[a700hitter]

70 pitches in three innings. I know he averged 130 pitches in Japan, but realistically, how many pitches do you think Tito will let him throw when the season starts?

[TheKilo]

You don't see how saying essentially 'he's not trustworthy in terms of judging baseball talent' is criticizing someone who's job is GM of a baseball team? If you were a lawyer and I said "don't listen to a700, he doesn't know what he's talking about in legal matters" wouldn't you take that as criticism? I sure would.

 

I'm not giddy about Buchholz, but I'm not ready to trade a pitcher who has + command, 4 solid pitches and the ability to hit 97 on the gun either. Given that the sox can have him for 6 seasons at an absurdly cheap price there is no reason to trade him except for in extreme circumstances.

 

But again, don't listen to what I say. He might not throw what Theo says he throws and he might not actually hit 97. He could be a soft tossing lefty for all we know. Minor leaguers are entirely impossible to evaluate.

 

Dude, Theo did draft guys like Papelbon and the B's, but he's also drafted guys like Abe Alvarez.

 

It's pretty much hit or miss with the draft. Theo's good most of the time and he's got a knack for signing cheap offensive players with good potential.

 

He's not very good at constructing a bullpen.

[example1]

When did I say Theo's opinion doesn't matter' date=' and when have I raised his age as issue? Please point me to a post where I criticized his age. Maybe I didn't make it clear in my other posts, but I am not disparaging Theo's opinion. I am saying that it needs to be put in perspective: a. there have not been that many gem pitchers in the organization in recent years, so there isn't much to compare him to. b. it was a single complimentary statement by the GM. It doesn't mean that Theo thinks the kid will be a star. It was just a quote in an interview. Let's not start ironing Clemens # 22 for him.[/quote']

 

Just curious, what would it take for you to retain a young player with ace stuff? What would they have to do in the minor leagues to earn a spot on your team?

 

You didn't criticize theo's age, but you said tha tif he had been around for 20+ year evaluating talent he would somehow be more reliable. I'm just saying this guy has seen many players in his short time, including some very good ones (Lester, Papelbon, Bard, Bowden, etc.,) and to me, putting Buchholz (a junior-college draft pick who had played OF primarily) at the top of that list means that he could easily be a star in the making. Castiglione (who has been watching young talent for 20 years) seemed VERY pleased and indicated that there would certainly be a spot for this kid in the Sox rotation in the near future. I tend to agree.

[TheKilo]

70 pitches in three innings. I know he averged 130 pitches in Japan' date=' but realistically, how many pitches do you think Tito will let him throw when the season starts?[/quote']

 

 

He averaged 130 pitches every 6 days.

 

I'd say maybe in the 100ish range? The Pedro limit maybe just to get his feet wet?

[a700hitter]

You don't see how saying essentially 'he's not trustworthy in terms of judging baseball talent' is criticizing someone who's job is GM of a baseball team? If you were a lawyer and I said "don't listen to a700' date=' he doesn't know what he's talking about in legal matters" wouldn't you take that as criticism? I sure would. [/quote']

You have a real talent for overstating your position. If you were a lawyer that would negatively impact the credibility of your argument. I have never said not to listen to Theo. That is just your interpretation. I will admit that I as others have been critical of a number of his moves, and to his credit he took responsibility for them and held himself accountable.

I'm not giddy about Buchholz' date=' but I'm not ready to trade a pitcher who has + command, 4 solid pitches and the ability to hit 97 on the gun either. Given that the sox can have him for 6 seasons at an absurdly cheap price there is no reason to trade him except for in extreme circumstances.[/quote']I'd trade anyone if the deal was in our favor even if he has X-ray vision.

[example1]

Dude, Theo did draft guys like Papelbon and the B's, but he's also drafted guys like Abe Alvarez.

 

It's pretty much hit or miss with the draft. Theo's good most of the time and he's got a knack for signing cheap offensive players with good potential.

 

He's not very good at constructing a bullpen.

 

 

Did theo ever say that Alvarez has the best stuff of any of his draft picks? No. The Sox make 50 draft picks a year or so. Theo has done 4 drafts, which is about 200 players. He singled out ONE to make this comment about, and that one came out and had a dominant performance for a 22 year old making his first ever start against MLB talent.

 

I made one comment, simply relaying a comment by Joe Castiglione about a conversation he had had with Theo about one of the more exciting prospects the Sox have. If you don't believe him then fine, that's your deal. I put weight on it, in terms of how that impacts my valuing of Buchholz's skills and potential value as a major leaguer in discussions like these.

[example1]

You have a real talent for overstating your position. If you were a lawyer that would negatively impact the credibility of your argument. I have never said not to listen to Theo. That is just your interpretation. I will admit that I as others have been critical of a number of his moves' date=' and to his credit he took responsibility for them and held himself accountable. I'd trade anyone if the deal was in our favor even if he has X-ray vision.[/quote']

 

What about the ability to leap a tall building in a single bound? I head that Buchholz did that once, leaping over a Fidelity Investments building in Ft. Meyers. I think it took two bounds though.

[ORS]

Signs of life from Varitek.

[example1]

If Tek can put up .270 with 16-19 HR with 70 RBI while staying healthy and catching 4 of 5 days I'll be happy.

[RedSoxRooter]

Let's not start ironing Clemens # 22 for him.

 

What?

[a700hitter]

Just curious' date=' what would it take for you to retain a young player with ace stuff? What would they have to do in the minor leagues to earn a spot on your team?[/quote']As a GM of a team with the second highest payroll in baseball in a tough town like Boston, I would be much less likely to wait for guys to develop into major leaguers. Let KC, and the other small market teams wait 5 or more years for a guy to develop and carry him on the roster for another year or two in the majors until he blossoms. As the Boston GM, the kid would have to be a can't miss big contributor if not a star. Those who are not can't miss I would talk up and trade to other teams for their young established stars.

You didn't criticize theo's age' date=' but you said tha tif he had been around for 20+ year evaluating talent he would somehow be more reliable. I'm just saying this guy has seen many players in his short time, including some very good ones (Lester, Papelbon, Bard, Bowden, etc.,) and to me, putting Buchholz (a junior-college draft pick who had played OF primarily) at the top of that list means that he could easily be a star in the making. [/quote'] It wasn't a knock on his age, but an observation that there have not been a lot of pitchers drafted under his short reign.

[example1]

As a GM of a team with the second highest payroll in baseball in a tough town like Boston' date=' I would be much less likely to wait for guys to develop into major leaguers. [/quote']

 

Why? It seems to me like that philosophy is what has gotten the Yankees a team that has talent but no coherence or team unity. It seems to me like a team that is willing to spend 51m on a posting fee has shown that it is willing to spend when needed, but why be stupid and go after the Kevin Browns and Pavanos and Clement's of the world when you have guys who can do just as well for 1/10th the price, and who may have a higher upside?

 

Let KC, and the other small market teams wait 5 or more years for a guy to develop and carry him on the roster for another year or two in the majors until he blossoms.

 

So what's the point of a farm system if its not to take high upside guys and give them time to develop? It seems to me that the Sox have the LUXARY to let these guys develop and that they should use that. They also have had the luxary of having extra draft picks when not overpaying for aging stars and were smart enough to exploit that loophole.

[a700hitter]

Why? It seems to me like that philosophy is what has gotten the Yankees a team that has talent but no coherence or team unity. It seems to me like a team that is willing to spend 51m on a posting fee has shown that it is willing to spend when needed' date=' but why be stupid and go after the Kevin Browns and Pavanos and Clement's of the world when you have guys who can do just as well for 1/10th the price, and who may have a higher upside?[/quote']I said I would trade them for established young stars on other teams, not Kevin Brown or Clement or even Pavano (a one-year wonder). I didn't say I would go after old decrepit has beens. By the way, although you criticize the Yankee style of management, they make the post-season every year. They must be doing something right.

So what's the point of a farm system if its not to take high upside guys and give them time to develop?

That is the purpose' date=' but the Red Sox don't need to be as patient because they have more resources than most teams.

They also have had the luxury of having extra draft picks when not overpaying for aging stars and were smart enough to exploit that loophole.

Yes, I am still turning cartwheels over luxury of the picks we got for letting Damon walk to the Yankees. :thumbdown I don't consider age 32 to be old for a an All Star major leaguer. If it is, maybe we should consider dumping Papi after this season even though his power is increasing every year.

[a700hitter]

Crisp is swinging the bat pretty well lately.

[riverside sluggers]

No cause for concern?

 

Yesterday Papelbon rolled over his ankle while covering first. It was reported that he would get at least an inng of relief in today's game to see how he pitches. Entering the 9th inning ahead 7-4 they gave the ball to Joel Pineiro to notch the save, not Papelbon