2007 Spring Training Game Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

Here we go' date=' how the Sox will fail. But the Yankees will thrive because not one player will have a bad season[/quote']

 

they have failures every yr. Injuries, shittyness, infighting, etc. Hell, we won the east in 2005 with 5 starting pitchers on the DL. We have had 2 constants over the entirety of our run. A solid, pitch eating offense, and Mo. The offense gives Mo lots of opportunities and Mariano makes sure they arent wasted. This yr, our offense will be better than it ever was in terms of pitch eating and power. Our bullpen is stacked as well and our starting pitching will be league average. Yet the rotation has depth which can eat innings. We can afford injuries to everyone but Mo so long as we dont catch an injury bug that wipes out a bunch of guys at once. Hell, last yr we won the east going away with 2 starters who threw well, one guy who had a 5ERA, one guy who averaged less than 5IP per start, and a rotation 5 hole.

[riverside sluggers]

he could be. Or he could be a league average pitcher in terms of ERA and be hit or miss every time out. Sorry dude' date=' Beckett was about as hit or miss as they come last yr and nothing to this point will change that.[/quote']

 

Im surprised you havent yet dubbed the Yankees rotation the best in the East

[jacksonianmarch]

Im surprised you havent yet dubbed the Yankees rotation the best in the East

 

No way. The yankees will come in 6th in the entire AL. The Jays will be right around the same as the yankees simply because their 4 and 5 holes are absolutely terrible and the sox will have better numbers in the rotation most likely since they have stability in the 4 hole and we dont know what Igawa or Pavano can give. To be honest with you, our rotation may have Hughes and Clemens in the rotation come playoff time, so as long as the yankees eat innings in the rotation, I can live with whatever guy takes the bump.

[Dana Kiecker]

whats your point?

 

Cocoa was what?

 

If you want to rehash the Damon not signing.. we can go back to 03 when Vlad was a freee agent but they had the hardon to swap manny for a-rod.... and vlad went cheap to the Angels and they overpaid for the roid-monkey dirtdog..

 

Lets not play this game..

[jacksonianmarch]

Im surprised you havent yet dubbed the Yankees rotation the best in the East

 

and with Paps moving back to the closers role, the gap has gotten slimmer.

[jacksonianmarch]

whats your point?

 

Cocoa was what?

 

If you want to rehash the Damon not signing.. we can go back to 03 when Vlad was a freee agent but they had the hardon to swap manny for a-rod.... and vlad went cheap to the Angels and they overpaid for the roid-monkey dirtdog..

 

Lets not play this game..

 

and we got Sheffield who was very solid for us until he got hurt. Yeah, I'd rather have Vlad, but that isnt a mistake that will haunt us. The mistake that haunted us was the dissolution of our rotation in 2003. That still haunts us as guys like Vazquez and Brown never would have been acquired and the talent we gave away could have been held onto for a bigger chip.

[riverside sluggers]

Personally I feel that Roger will go back to Houston. Last year he did that whole song & dance that the team he would go to would be in serious contention nearing the All-Star Break.

 

Boston- comfortable 5 game lead over NY at time he made decison, pro-rated $21 million, best offense in 1st half (run support ka-ching), lights out closer to help him save Ws

 

Houston- were they even sniffing the lead for the NL Central?, pro-rated $22 million, inept offense who still gave him no run support, shaky closer as they could come

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, but Houston had his best friend and familiarity. Without Pettitte, the stros are going to be double digits down and floundering when Roger makes his decision. If Houston makes a competetive offer, he probably accepts it. But I think they are sick of being held hostage. I dont think Houston offers anything near what the northeast teams will offer.

[Dana Kiecker]

My point was the SOX could have had Vlad.. kept Manny and 03 would have been ours and 04 and 05 and 06... what a f***up.. but at least we had RoidDog and the guy we got for Arroyo..

[seabeachfred]

Jackson, are you really serious saying that Damon is a better ballplayer than Drew? Come off it my friend. If Drew stays healthy as he's been the past three seasons save that broken wrist in 2005, he will drive in a hell of alot more runs than Damon does. He also is twice the fielder Johnny is, a player who can play center as well as right, has a great arm and is a terrific athlete. And he doesn't have that fluke little league right field to shoot at like Damon does. I will bet you that Drew will outhit Damon this season. Besides, we needed a good No. 5 hitter, not a leadoff man. We have a good one in Lugo, and a f uture solid one in Jacoby Ellsbury.

[ANiMAL]

im going to disagree about lugo being a good leadoff hitter

[riverside sluggers]

Blah we can argue about who's who in October when October comes. Lets just take a game by game approach, shall we?

 

Boston @ Kansas City

Curt Schilling vs Gil Meche

 

Tampa Bay @ New York

Scott Kazmir vs Carl Pavano

 

Discuss

[Cocos Disciples]

Series rotation is as such:

 

Schilling v. Meche

Beckett v. Perez

Matsuzaka v. Greinke

 

EDIT: Don't know where else to put this, and it doesn't merit it's own thread, but...Jorge Cantu was optioned to AAA and Elijah Dukes wil start the year on the big club. Thought that was interesting.

[jacksonianmarch]

Blah we can argue about who's who in October when October comes. Lets just take a game by game approach, shall we?

 

Boston @ Kansas City

Curt Schilling vs Gil Meche

 

Tampa Bay @ New York

Scott Kazmir vs Carl Pavano

 

Discuss

 

Kazmir will be tough, but just like our lineup, we'll be feasting on that soft middle relief by the 6th inning.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jackson' date=' are you really serious saying that Damon is a better ballplayer than Drew? Come off it my friend. If Drew stays healthy as he's been the past three seasons save that broken wrist in 2005, he will drive in a hell of alot more runs than Damon does. He also is twice the fielder Johnny is, a player who can play center as well as right, has a great arm and is a terrific athlete. And he doesn't have that fluke little league right field to shoot at like Damon does. I will bet you that Drew will outhit Damon this season. Besides, we needed a good No. 5 hitter, not a leadoff man. We have a good one in Lugo, and a f uture solid one in Jacoby Ellsbury.[/quote']

 

Yes, I am. Damon plays a more marquee position, will hit more homers and will steal a lot more bases. Plus he fills the leadoff spot better than mostly anyone in the game not named Sizemore. Drew as a 5 hitter is above average. Damon as a leadoff man is top 3.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jackson' date=' are you really serious saying that Damon is a better ballplayer than Drew? Come off it my friend. If Drew stays healthy as he's been the past three seasons save that broken wrist in 2005, he will drive in a hell of alot more runs than Damon does. He also is twice the fielder Johnny is, a player who can play center as well as right, has a great arm and is a terrific athlete. And he doesn't have that fluke little league right field to shoot at like Damon does. I will bet you that Drew will outhit Damon this season. Besides, we needed a good No. 5 hitter, not a leadoff man. We have a good one in Lugo, and a f uture solid one in Jacoby Ellsbury.[/quote']

 

Drew is a terrific athlete? Are you kidding me? The guy plays RF well, but he cannot play CF in Fenway. He had enough trouble with RF in Chavez Ravine. Put him in CF with the circus in LF and who, WMP in RF? Bloopers will find the gaps. Drew is an above average RFer in total package. He is an above average 5 hitter. He is a moderately good RBI man. Damon is a top 5 CFer overall. Damon is likely the 3rd best leadoff hitter in baseball behind Reyes and Sizemore. Look where they fit. Drew doesnt hold a candle to what Damon brings to the table.

 

And banking on Ellsbury filling the hole left by Damon is laughable. Ellsbury has ZERO power. So he will be a Juan Pierre essentially with less speed. And nobody will bring the leadership and the love that Damon brought. There are certain things that numbers dont quantify.

[example1]

You put Pedro out there on day 1' date=' you take back home field.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but unfortunately, the way baseball works is that you sigh guys for MULTIPLE years. It wasn't a choice to sign him for one year or two years. He wanted 4 as a minimum. People had a feeling he would have a good '05, but NOBODY questions the Sox for not signing him to 4 years. This discussion is ridiculous.

 

No person, business or entity could ever both claim that it acts rationally AND pay a guy 49m over 4 years knowing that he won't make it for more than one. No matter what the potential benefit is from a WS victory (which, even with Pedro, may have come down to a Graffanino stolen base or Ortiz homerun...who knows) it just isn't rational. I mean, ONE World Series victory didn't stop people from complaining 3 years later, so why would two?

 

Pedro has a torn rotator cuff. He had three other separate injuries last year, including a torn calf muscle and an injured toe. You are telling me, a700, that this FO would have been smart to sign Pedro for four years at 49m?

 

I'm aware enough to be able to name a dozen bad moves theo has made, giving him the blame the whole time. Would he resign Damon to a deal at this point? Probably. Does that mean he's a horrible GM? No. GM's make mistakes, consistently, because it isn't possible to be perfect. Economists and statisticians make mistakes too, for the same reasons: you can't predict the market. Despite what you may wish for.

 

You say he's on thin ice, but I just don't see it. From what I see the FO is unified and acting under a sabermetric perspective. From John Henry and Larry Lucchino to Theo and Jed and Ben. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's an old-school, scouting-based person in there who goes on hunches and the traditional ideas of speed and bunting and who doesn't look for high OBP guys... but I don't see it.

 

Furthermore, I don't hear anyone in the Sox FO claming to know how to get better pitching in the pen. Is there some prescription that is available that Theo is blatently ignoring? It seems to me that many of the teams who have successful bullpens have a) a dominant closer and some homegrown guys who they don't have to pay a lot for. How often do premier closers and set-up guys become available? The last one I remember was... Keith Foulke, who was supposed to be more than a 1 year guy. Thanks to the very philosophy that a700 was espousing in the Pedro case (sign a guy for one year and damn the consequences) this team signed Keith Foulke for multiple years (good move) and he was useless for the next two. The only thing that even made the bullpen worthwhile since that large acquisition was, ironically, a draft pick named Jonathan Papelbon.

 

Add the big-time signings of David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, the re-signing (and subsequent Captaining) of Jason Varitek, the trade for Josh Beckett and the bold and impressive signing of Matsuzaka and you're looking at a FO that has done a lot to try to improve this team.

[example1]

Drew is a terrific athlete? Are you kidding me? The guy plays RF well, but he cannot play CF in Fenway. He had enough trouble with RF in Chavez Ravine. Put him in CF with the circus in LF and who, WMP in RF? Bloopers will find the gaps. Drew is an above average RFer in total package. He is an above average 5 hitter. He is a moderately good RBI man. Damon is a top 5 CFer overall. Damon is likely the 3rd best leadoff hitter in baseball behind Reyes and Sizemore. Look where they fit. Drew doesnt hold a candle to what Damon brings to the table.

 

And banking on Ellsbury filling the hole left by Damon is laughable. Ellsbury has ZERO power. So he will be a Juan Pierre essentially with less speed. And nobody will bring the leadership and the love that Damon brought. There are certain things that numbers dont quantify.

 

Why don't you wait for a season of Drew playing in a good hitters park with a good lineup in games that you watch before making such claims.

 

Career #'s:

 

Damon: .289/.353/.436

Drew: .286/.393/.512

 

They don't have the same amounts of power. Drew clearly has more power and is better at getting on base; This is a large enough sample for us to be pretty confident with that determination.

[riverside sluggers]

Kazmir will be tough' date=' but just like our lineup, we'll be feasting on that soft middle relief by the 6th inning.[/quote']

 

If Kazmir will be tough, how will he be out by or before the 6th inning?

 

Scott Kazmir (5 games vs New York, 1-3 record with a 3.29 ERA---Career at Yankee Stadium in 3 games, 1-1 record with a 4.20 ERA)

Johnny Damon, 2 for 13 (.154 avg) Triple, 4 RBIs, 4 Walks, 4 Ks

Derek Jeter, 2 for 15 (.133 avg) HR, 2 RBIs, Walk, 5 Ks

Bobby Abreu, 2 for 3 (.667 avg) K, SB

Alex Rodriguez, 1 for 11 (.091 avg) 2 Walks, 4 Ks

Hideki Matsui, 3 for 9 (.333 avg) RBI, 2 Walks, K

Jason Giambi, 1 for 5 (.200 avg) Walk, K

Jorge Posada, 3 for 9 (.333 avg) 3 RBIs, Walk, 2 Ks

Robinson Cano, 0 for 3, RBI, 2 Ks

Josh Phelps ---

///

Melky Cabrera, 2 for 4 (.500 avg) Double, K

Miguel Cairo, 2 for 5 (.400 avg0 2 Doubles, Walk

Doug Mientkiewicz ---

Wil Nieves ---

 

Carl Pavano (5 games vs Tampa Bay, 3-2 record with a 2.92 ERA---Career at Yankee Stadium in 9 games, 1-3 record with a 6.89 ERA)

Carl Crawford, 4 for 13 (.308 avg) RBI, 3 SBs

Ben Zobrist ---

Rocco Baldelli, 1 for 6 (.167 avg) 3 Ks

Ty Wigginton, 3 for 14 (.214 avg) 2 HRs, 2 RBIs, 2 Walks, 2 Ks

Jonny Gomes, 1 for 2 (.500 avg) HR, 2 RBIs, Walk, K

B.J. Upton ---

Delmon Young ---

Akinori Iwamura ---

Dioner Navarro ---

///

Elijah Dukes ---

Brendan Harris, 0 for 2

Josh Paul ---

Carlos Pena ---

 

And banking on Ellsbury filling the hole left by Damon is laughable. Ellsbury has ZERO power. So he will be a Juan Pierre essentially with less speed. And nobody will bring the leadership and the love that Damon brought. There are certain things that numbers dont quantify.

 

Hahah ease up before you start calling this kid a hack, youre panties are really getting tied in a bunch about Damon here.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury isnt actually Joey Gathright hitting the ball, right now his max for HR potential is 10 which Im sure was the max set for Damon when he first started out. By the way uh when was terms of power an essential need for leading off?

 

Ellsbury is being touted as a future gold glover with a cannon of an arm. And very early on is praised for the leadership skills & love for the game

------------------

EDIT: A sidenote about Becket, boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox

Josh Beckett pitched four scoreless innings in a minor league game, allowing three hits while striking out six. He did not walk a batter. It was his final tuneup before pitching the second game of the regular season Wednesday night in Kansas City

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, but unfortunately, the way baseball works is that you sigh guys for MULTIPLE years. It wasn't a choice to sign him for one year or two years. He wanted 4 as a minimum. People had a feeling he would have a good '05, but NOBODY questions the Sox for not signing him to 4 years. This discussion is ridiculous.

 

No person, business or entity could ever both claim that it acts rationally AND pay a guy 49m over 4 years knowing that he won't make it for more than one. No matter what the potential benefit is from a WS victory (which, even with Pedro, may have come down to a Graffanino stolen base or Ortiz homerun...who knows) it just isn't rational. I mean, ONE World Series victory didn't stop people from complaining 3 years later, so why would two?

 

Pedro has a torn rotator cuff. He had three other separate injuries last year, including a torn calf muscle and an injured toe. You are telling me, a700, that this FO would have been smart to sign Pedro for four years at 49m?

 

I'm aware enough to be able to name a dozen bad moves theo has made, giving him the blame the whole time. Would he resign Damon to a deal at this point? Probably. Does that mean he's a horrible GM? No. GM's make mistakes, consistently, because it isn't possible to be perfect. Economists and statisticians make mistakes too, for the same reasons: you can't predict the market. Despite what you may wish for.

 

You say he's on thin ice, but I just don't see it. From what I see the FO is unified and acting under a sabermetric perspective. From John Henry and Larry Lucchino to Theo and Jed and Ben. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's an old-school, scouting-based person in there who goes on hunches and the traditional ideas of speed and bunting and who doesn't look for high OBP guys... but I don't see it.

 

Furthermore, I don't hear anyone in the Sox FO claming to know how to get better pitching in the pen. Is there some prescription that is available that Theo is blatently ignoring? It seems to me that many of the teams who have successful bullpens have a) a dominant closer and some homegrown guys who they don't have to pay a lot for. How often do premier closers and set-up guys become available? The last one I remember was... Keith Foulke, who was supposed to be more than a 1 year guy. Thanks to the very philosophy that a700 was espousing in the Pedro case (sign a guy for one year and damn the consequences) this team signed Keith Foulke for multiple years (good move) and he was useless for the next two. The only thing that even made the bullpen worthwhile since that large acquisition was, ironically, a draft pick named Jonathan Papelbon.

 

Add the big-time signings of David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, the re-signing (and subsequent Captaining) of Jason Varitek, the trade for Josh Beckett and the bold and impressive signing of Matsuzaka and you're looking at a FO that has done a lot to try to improve this team.

 

 

Pedro is the one pitcher who can have his cuff repaired and will still come back and be special. He isnt a guy who absolutely needs his velocity. He has some 3-4 plus offspeed pitches that he can locate on a dime. He lost one yr, but will likely finish this season as the mets ace. Either way, at the time, the sox had no idea he'd be a one and done. They thought he'd be a 3 and done. They offered him 3, and if he took that, he'd be missing this season too. It isnt like they saw that he was beat up and passed now, they made an attempt.

 

As far as theo being on thin ice, I see it something like that. The sox were huge spenders this offseason on guys who are anything but sure bets. Matsuzaka never pitched in the bigs before. Drfew has trouble staying healthy. Lugo has been a solid player for 1.5 seasons in his career and has had trouble keeping his fists off his wives. He built a pitching staff that looked solid on paper and then forgot about the closer, then took their brightest young arm and threw him back to the closers role against the advice of the doctors. They seem to be relying on Lester as the 5 in a few months, knowing he still wont be all the way back. LOTS of things theo has put his neck out there for and I think most of them will work out. But there is also the slim possibility that most of these go down in flames and leave the sox holding the bag for a major shitfest. This offseason was the rubber stamp of their immediate future. If it bombs out, theo is toast.

[jacksonianmarch]

If Kazmir will be tough, how will he be out by or before the 6th inning?

 

 

 

 

 

Hahah ease up before you start calling this kid a hack, youre panties are really getting tied in a bunch about Damon here.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury isnt actually Joey Gathright hitting the ball, right now his max for HR potential is 10 which Im sure was the max set for Damon when he first started out. By the way uh when was terms of power an essential need for leading off?

 

Ellsbury is being touted as a future gold glover with a cannon of an arm. And very early on is praised for the leadership skills & love for the game

------------------

EDIT: A sidenote about Becket, boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox

 

Nah, no panties son, commando all the way!

 

I think Ellsbury will be a solid major leaguer. Damon was way more than a solid major leaguer. To give you an idea, see where he was drafted in most fantasy leagues. Typically top 6 rounds in a 12 man league. That says something. That was my point. I have no qualms about thinking Ellsbury will be holding down cf from '08-'18. He jus wont be Johnny Damon.

[riverside sluggers]

Jacko could you bring up an article where it is confirmed that Theo went against recent doctors orders and put Papelbon back in the pen?

[jacksonianmarch]

If Kazmir will be tough, how will he be out by or before the 6th inning?

 

 

 

 

 

Hahah ease up before you start calling this kid a hack, youre panties are really getting tied in a bunch about Damon here.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury isnt actually Joey Gathright hitting the ball, right now his max for HR potential is 10 which Im sure was the max set for Damon when he first started out. By the way uh when was terms of power an essential need for leading off?

 

Ellsbury is being touted as a future gold glover with a cannon of an arm. And very early on is praised for the leadership skills & love for the game

------------------

EDIT: A sidenote about Becket, boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox

 

 

Damon his 16HR in his final minor league season. I dont think the bolded statement is correct.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jacko could you bring up an article where it is confirmed that Theo went against recent doctors orders and put Papelbon back in the pen?

 

come on now, are you really going to pick between which media spin you want to buy. Regardless, once he flip flopped back, he made his bed. Personally, I dont get how starting is less stressful, but he sold it to sox nation and then all of a sudden flopped back. This move is hanging over his head once again.

[ORS]

That's not exactly accurate. He didn't sell it to RSN. A lot more people would be skeptical, myself included, if the medical community offered contrary advice. Since they've, for the most part, supported it, it lends credence to the Sox medical staff's opinion being on the up and up.

 

Here's something I find a little funny. Jacko is quick to cite the "David Eckstein without the talent" quote re: Pedroia, but positive comparisons are immediately dismissed. The Ellsbury/Damon comparisons are coming from the scouts. I would think a guy who seems to value their opinion so much would just let it be. I guess their message only rings true when it's unfavorable for a Sox prospect.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have given both sides of Pedroia every time. I have said:

 

1. Eckstein without the talent or

2. Loretta with more power and everything in between

 

I know they are comparing him to Damon just because of the organization for the most part. Their games are similar, but Ellsbury has the better arm and Damon has more power and always did have more power.

[ORS]

We'll see. Damon didn't become a 10+ HR regular until he was 24. Ellsbury is 23 this year. I think this year is the most important year in terms of getting a true sense of his power potential. Last was his first full year with wood bats, so the adjustment period should be over.

[jacksonianmarch]

We'll see. Damon didn't become a 10+ HR regular until he was 24. Ellsbury is 23 this year. I think this year is the most important year in terms of getting a true sense of his power potential. Last was his first full year with wood bats' date=' so the adjustment period should be over.[/quote']

 

I can agree with that statement.

[a700hitter]

Pedro has a torn rotator cuff. He had three other separate injuries last year' date=' including a torn calf muscle and an injured toe. You are telling me, a700, that this FO would have been smart to sign Pedro for four years at 49m?[/quote']His last game for us he gave up 3 hits in 7 innings of game 3 and retired the final 14 batters against the team that had the best record in baseball. Maybe it wasn't a vintage Pedro, but it was a virtuoso performance. He walked to the Mets and had an All Star year for a crappy Met team in 2005. I f they had been any good at all, Pedro could have notched 20 that year. Yes, I believe that if they had kept the Hall of Fame pitcher, that we had a great chance of repeating. BTW how many Hall of Fame Pitchers have we had in their prime? Only two that I remember and we let them both go.

 

Are you pooh poohing a repeat? That's ridiculou, because it is so rare to repeat in baseball. Boston fans were on a high for quite some time after 1 championship. If they had repeated, we'd be walking around giggling to ourselves for decades. That opportunity was thrown in the trash the day Pedro walked. Everyone feels the FO was vindicated when Pedro's arm blew out. I do not. If he comes back and gives the Mets a strong year and a half from this point on, in my opinion 3 years of Pedro for $49 million is about right in the market place, especially considering that they were willing to flush $25 million down the toilet on an unaccomplished head case like Clement. He spent his last month in the Cubs bullpen because he sucked so bad. WTF were they thinking. Also, if they had examined his shoulder a little more closely maybe they would have found that it too was hanging by a thread. There was extensive damage in his shoulder, and it didn't happen in one year pitching for Boston.

You say he's on thin ice' date=' but I just don't see it. [/quote']You'll see it if this team is out of the race again in August after this off season of spending like a mad drunken sailor.

From what I see the FO is unified and acting under a sabermetric perspective. From John Henry and Larry Lucchino to Theo and Jed and Ben. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's an old-school' date=' scouting-based person in there who goes on hunches and the traditional ideas of speed and bunting and who doesn't look for high OBP guys... but I don't see it.[/quote']I don't even know what point you are trying to make here.:dunno:

Furthermore' date=' I don't hear anyone in the Sox FO claming to know how to get better pitching in the pen. Is there some prescription that is available that Theo is blatently ignoring? It seems to me that many of the teams who have successful bullpens have a) a dominant closer and some homegrown guys who they don't have to pay a lot for. How often do premier closers and set-up guys become available? [/quote']I don't know if there is a prescription, but his record speaks for itself. He has not been able to build adequate pitching staffs, particularly bullpens, in the last two years. He's built old-school Red Sox teams with solid gold offenses and tin plated pitching.

Thanks to the very philosophy that a700 was espousing in the Pedro case (sign a guy for one year and damn the consequences) this team signed Keith Foulke for multiple years (good move) and he was useless for the next two.

You constantly misstate my position. First of all' date=' Foulke was a good move. Without him we're going into our 89th year without a championship. Second, there was absolutely no reason for the FO to know that he would break down after one year, but in my mind his mental state had as much to do with his collapse as his physical state. His arm is still healthy and he's not that old. He finished strong last year and Cleveland was prepared to throw a nice piece of change at him. You can't blame the FO for not predicting when Foulke would just give up. He was the right man for that 2004 team and Theo gets big kudos for bringing him in after he extensively courted him. Are you saying that you think Theo screwed that one up? Please notice that I have asked you what you think instead of assuming what you think, as you do with me.

Add the big-time signings of David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, the re-signing (and subsequent Captaining) of Jason Varitek, the trade for Josh Beckett and the bold and impressive signing of Matsuzaka and you're looking at a FO that has done a lot to try to improve this team.

Do you think that my criticizing some moves of the FO is some sort of blanket condemnation of the FO? Again, notice I am asking you, not assuming. I give them credit for the good and great moves, e.g getting Schilling, Foulke, Ortiz, Beckett, Matsuzaka, and finding Papelbon. Unless I do nothing but uniformly praise the FO, it seems (notice the use of the word "seems") that you think I am totally against the FO and that's just not true, but what would be the point of me posting that David Ortiz was such a great acquisition? Who would debate or discuss that? BTW the resigning of Varitek that you mention as a good move is debatable. How much good service have we gotten from him since he re-signed? If they were banking on Pedro going down, they should have been aware of the long track record of catchers in their mid-30's declining precipitously. That seems to be the case with Tek too. I for one think the money would have been better spent on Damon.

[example1]

His last game for us he gave up 3 hits in 7 innings of game 3 and retired the final 14 batters against the team that had the best record in baseball. Maybe it wasn't a vintage Pedro' date=' but it was a virtuoso performance. He walked to the Mets and had an All Star year for a crappy Met team in 2005. I f they had been any good at all, Pedro could have notched 20 that year. Yes, I believe that if they had kept the Hall of Fame pitcher, that we had a great chance of repeating. BTW how many Hall of Fame Pitchers have we had in their prime? Only two that I remember and we let them both go.[/quote']

 

Pedro isn't and wasn't in his prime. He has a torn rotator cuff and was pondering retirement not 2 months ago. It can look rosy, like he'll come back and be very efective Pedro for a few more years, but it certainly wouldn't if he was on the Sox. You put too much weight on whether or not Pedro would have won them a WS. All he could have done was put them in a position to win the playoffs. Without him in 2005 this team made it to the playoffs and was simply outplayed by a better team.

 

Are you pooh poohing a repeat? That's ridiculou, because it is so rare to repeat in baseball. Boston fans were on a high for quite some time after 1 championship. If they had repeated, we'd be walking around giggling to ourselves for decades.

 

I guess. I didn't know that a repeat got them carte blanche for a decade, but a single victory only gets 2 years. Where does it say that's the rule? Where does it say that 2 championships in 5 years is considerably less valuable than a repeat? I think its an arbitrary argument, not because a repeat is insignificant--it's not--but because a single championship is still enough for me to rest my hat on for a few years. Two would have been nice, but even the first was a product of luck as much as it was great players and management. No dave roberts, no ground rule double, no world series. All teams win that way. Like Billy Beane says, you can construct a team to get to the playoffs, from there its luck. Who would have predicted that the Tigers would lose on PFP issues?

 

That opportunity was thrown in the trash the day Pedro walked. Everyone feels the FO was vindicated when Pedro's arm blew out. I do not. If he comes back and gives the Mets a strong year and a half from this point on, in my opinion 3 years of Pedro for $49 million is about right in the market place, especially considering that they were willing to flush $25 million down the toilet on an unaccomplished head case like Clement.

 

And would you have been willing to throw away a full season (which he will have missed when he comes back around the ASB) plus the next year and a half since we don't know if he's coming back for a chance to be competitive in the playoffs in 05? We were in the playoffs in 05. Graffanino let a ball roll between his legs that cemented the victory for the white sox. Couldn't the same thing have happened then? As far as I remember, Pedro turned down a reasonable 3 year offer from the Sox. Are you saying the Sox should have given Pedro whatever he wanted? If you ask me whether I would rather have Matsuzaka or Pedro at this point I will say Matsuzaka time and time again.

 

 

I don't even know what point you are trying to make here.:dunno:

 

The point is that if the entire FO is in agreement about things like Drew and Matsuzaka and the rest, and if they see how hard Theo works and how dedicated he and his team are to winning, then they will likely realize that the organization's philosophy has been carried out as they wished. If your boss agreed with you about what you did, had active discussions with you about what to do, and ultimately gave you the okay for your decisions, do you think you would get canned if thing went wrong? I think it is people's propensity to harp on things like 'should theo lose his job' that makes Boston such a crappy place to work. I get no sense that John Henry or Tom Warner are disappointed with what Theo has done. He has put a team on the field that has sold out games for years and years. They are maxamizing revenue while putting out a competitive team. What more could an owner want? Yes, a WS would be nice but Henry and Warner understand how much luck is involved getting over that last hurdle. If they were putting out a New York Knicks-esque product then i would understand the question about Theo getting fired, but they aren't. They made the playoffs--an extremely difficult task--for three straight years and, again, should have made it last year without the injuries.

 

I don't know if there is a prescription, but his record speaks for itself. He has not been able to build adequate pitching staffs, particularly bullpens, in the last two years. He's built old-school Red Sox teams with solid gold offenses and tin plated pitching.

 

Agreed. Bullpens haven't been his strength. Good thing its not bullpens that cause people to buy tickets, when the sox sell out half a stadium in Seattle or Kansas City or Philadelphia.

 

You constantly misstate my position. First of all, Foulke was a good move. Without him we're going into our 89th year without a championship. Second, there was absolutely no reason for the FO to know that he would break down after one year, but in my mind his mental state had as much to do with his collapse as his physical state. His arm is still healthy and he's not that old. He finished strong last year and Cleveland was prepared to throw a nice piece of change at him. You can't blame the FO for not predicting when Foulke would just give up.

 

I"m not blaming them. I'm saying that running a team is a tricky business and it often involves things like investing in players who may break down, and letting others go for the same reason. It was a calculated decision to sign Foulke (who likely had the same mental issues before being on the Sox) at a time when he could help put them over the top. ONce he did it became a different decision whether or not to resign Pedro or to give Damon 5 yeras when this team was trying to move in a different direction. Of course, if this team uses its numerous 1st round picks in the next 4 or 5 years to win a championship or two I expect that 'moving in a new direction' will look pretty good. We'll have to see.

 

Are you saying that you think Theo screwed that one up? Please notice that I have asked you what you think instead of assuming what you think, as you do with me.

 

No. I think it was the right move. I think front offices have to make calculated decisions about which players they are willing to pay to break down and which ones they will let someone else break down. Having foulke at 6m a year (or whatever) is very different from signing Pedro for 4 yeras at 12 m per.

 

Do you think that my criticizing some moves of the FO is some sort of blanket condemnation of the FO? Again, notice I am asking you, not assuming.

 

Which moves do you like of theirs? (notice I'm asking, not assuming). I have a pretty good idea about your views a700 (this isn't the first discussion we've had about this) and I'm sorry if I am putting words in your mouth. I haven't heard you praise the FO in quite awhile, and usually your criticism (about guys the FO likes, such as Pedroia and Youkilis) makes me think you believe they don't know what they're doing and that their philosophy is wrong. When you link everything back to their ineptitude then, yes, I take it as a blanket statement rather than as a statement along the lines of "you win some, you lose some". When you're calling for Theo's head after one more season then I take that as a blanket condemnation rather than a recognition of the success they've had the last few years or the types of teams they build. There have been mistakes. Everyone acknowledges it. There have also been great acquisitions. We still care about the Sox. They are still selling out every game and have the most devoted fanbase in the world. How is that not a success? YOu always talk about the past... don't you remember the mid-90's when these weren't the case?

 

I give them credit for the good and great moves, e.g getting Schilling, Foulke, Ortiz, Beckett, Matsuzaka, and finding Papelbon. Unless I do nothing but uniformly praise the FO, it seems (notice the use of the word "seems") that you think I am totally against the FO and that's just not true, but what would be the point of me posting that David Ortiz was such a great acquisition? Who would debate or discuss that?

 

So are your comments merely to get people to debate and discuss rather than your real convictions? If you truly believe that the Sox have a better franchise than most, and if you believe they have a competitive team made up of some of the games greatest superstars, then perhaps that should outweigh the minor mistakes they have made in your rhetoric.

 

BTW the resigning of Varitek that you mention as a good move is debatable. How much good service have we gotten from him since he re-signed? If they were banking on Pedro going down, they should have been aware of the long track record of catchers in their mid-30's declining precipitously. That seems to be the case with Tek too. I for one think the money would have been better spent on Damon.

 

Varitek has played in 10 times the number of games that Pedro has over the past few years. The choice to resign a catcher--who is also a consumate team leader, a great role-model for younger players, the first CAPTAIN in a number of years--is different from resigning a pitcher who throws occasionally. The correct move could have been to resign Damon and Varitek, but I certainly don't have a problem with giving Varitek 10m a season to be the rock behind the plate that he has been. Would you rather have George Kottaras, Doug Mirabelli, Kelley Schoppach or Josh Bard charged with the task of catching Schilling, Beckett, and Matsuzaka? Didn't Varitek give them a little more security when making a risky choice to sign a guy like Matsuzaka to a huge deal? I assume he did.