Dustin's DP Buddy ('07 SS - Pervs!)

[ORS]

We go into the HotStove season without a key position filled, shortstop. Here's who is available in the market.....

 

Gonzo, Lugo, Royce Clayton, Craig Counsell.........and not much else.

 

I think the best two options are Gonzo or Lugo with either weighing in heavily on opposite sides of the offense/defense spectrum. Gonzo's the gloveman with no stick. Lugo is a very offensive talent for a MIF, but his D is suspect. Personally, I think Lugo's extra range over Gonzo makes up for the miscues he might make, so they should get the extra offense.

[CrespoBlows]

Miguel Tejada, Michael Young, Orlando Cabrera, and Omar Vizquel could be available for trade.

[YanksHater213]

I'd personally like to see Gonzo back. Maybe not in an everyday role but in a utility/late game defender. If someone like Dustin/Enter '07 Starting SS here go down Gonzo would be a solid backup to have as insurance.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Id like to see Craig Counsell, that would be neat.

 

We could spend the whole season laughing about how Counsell has two World Series rings and A-Rod has none.

[riverside sluggers]

A Manny trade I wouldnt be much opposed to (under terms they get it done fast, to then sign a Soriano/Lee type)

 

Boston- SP Ervin Santana

SS Orlando Cabrera

1B Casey Kotchman

 

Anaheim- LF Manny Ramirez

cash considerations

throw-in prospect or 2

 

The Sox lock down a 24 year old stud pitcher. An 08 rotation of Beckett, Papelbon, Santana, Lester is very good to think about. The Angels have budding prospects Wood and Kendrick making their presence noted, making Orlando Cabrera expendable.

[a700hitter]

A Manny trade I wouldnt be much opposed to (under terms they get it done fast, to then sign a Soriano/Lee type)

 

Boston- SP Ervin Santana

SS Orlando Cabrera

1B Casey Kotchman

 

Anaheim- LF Manny Ramirez

cash considerations

throw-in prospect or 2

 

The Sox lock down a 24 year old stud pitcher. An 08 rotation of Beckett, Papelbon, Santana, Lester is very good to think about. The Angels have budding prospects Wood and Kendrick making their presence noted, making Orlando Cabrera expendable.

Ervin Santana is not Johan. He's not a stud yet.

[mar_022]

i'd love to see michael young in a sox uniform...solid MIF, and the guy can just plain hit

[Gom]

A Manny trade I wouldnt be much opposed to (under terms they get it done fast, to then sign a Soriano/Lee type)

 

Boston- SP Ervin Santana

SS Orlando Cabrera

1B Casey Kotchman

 

Anaheim- LF Manny Ramirez

cash considerations

throw-in prospect or 2

 

The Sox lock down a 24 year old stud pitcher. An 08 rotation of Beckett, Papelbon, Santana, Lester is very good to think about. The Angels have budding prospects Wood and Kendrick making their presence noted, making Orlando Cabrera expendable.

 

And why, pray tell, if you are the Angels do you trade for an aging OF who is sub-par in the field [although still a very feared hitter] with one of the better young pitchers on your team, a solid, if unspectacular, SS, and your 1B of the future? Not to mention that the combined salaries of all three players I give up don't equal 1/3 of what Manny makes.

 

If I'm the Angels, why do any of this? Why not just sign Soriano/Lee etc.?

[riverside sluggers]

1) The 3 players would make an estimated combined $11 million, more than a 1/3 I believe of Manny's $19 million payday

 

Orlando Cabrera is still locked up for another 2 years. Howie Kendrick & Brandon Wood are knocking at the doors & are seen as the DP of the Angels future. Hence Cabrera is well... expendable

 

So I guess a Yankee fans' understanding is that the Sox can only get pez dispensers for trading a 1st ballot HOF who can still have 40 HR/120+ RBI seasons?

[ORS]

Not that I think any of that will happen, I believe the man said $$ would be included in the deal. Reading and understanding what people write makes this whole game a lot easier. Please try and do that if you want to be taken seriously here, Mr. Enlightenment.

 

Regarding Manny. He isn't just a feared hitter. He's an all-time great. He's trancendent. One of ten in history with at least 3000 PA and an OPS over 1.000.

[Gom]

Not that I think any of that will happen, I believe the man said $$ would be included in the deal. Reading and understanding what people write makes this whole game a lot easier. Please try and do that if you want to be taken seriously here, Mr. Enlightenment.

 

Regarding Manny. He isn't just a feared hitter. He's an all-time great. He's trancendent. One of ten in history with at least 3000 PA and an OPS over 1.000.

 

Yes, Kemosabe...

 

My bad on the whole salary thing, I was just guessing. I take nothing away from Manny. He is one of the best hitters I have ever seen. However, if you are the Angels, which would you do?

 

1) Make the trade listed above with a couple of million dollars thrown in

 

of

 

2) Sign Soriano for less money annually than Manny, AND keep all of your players.

 

I admit that at the plate, Soriano is no Manny. However, everywhere else on the field, he blows Manny away. I pretty much see them as even when it comes to overall production. So why give up ANY players? Why not just sign Sori and keep everyone?

 

Was that enlightened enough for you?

 

It just gets tiring when people look only at what THEIR team needs are and disregard if the trade makes sense from the other side.

 

You do need someone to play devil's advocate.

 

Mr. Enlightenment

[ORS]

This, of course, assumes you are able to get Soriano who will have many other suitors. If they deal for Manny, there probably aren't as many trying to do the same thing, so the chances of success are much greater. I agree, that Soriano is choice #1, but he's also the one with the most competition for his services. If they fail on Soriano, then that deal for Manny makes sense for the Angels. They need a big bat, and pitching (and IF prospects) is their position of depth. Gotta give to get. Aybar is ready to take over SS, and I tend to think Kendry Morales is more likely to take over 1B.

 

The fact that you didn't recognize any of this, leading you to ridicule this trade as not making sense for the Angels, speaks volumes about how you will be unable to deliver on your promise to "Enlighten" us.

 

Thanks for playing, Tonto.

[riverside sluggers]

It just gets tiring when people look only at what THEIR team needs are and disregard if the trade makes sense from the other side.

 

Not all trades are hardly good for both sides... How about this recent one?

 

New York- Bobby Abreu, Cory Lidle

 

Philadelphia- cash, 3 crap prospects

[a700hitter]

Not all trades are hardly good for both sides... How about this recent one?

 

New York- Bobby Abreu, Cory Lidle

 

Philadelphia- cash, 3 crap prospects

The red Sox should have taken advantage of this one-sided trade when they had the chance.

[Gom]

This, of course, assumes you are able to get Soriano who will have many other suitors. If they deal for Manny, there probably aren't as many trying to do the same thing, so the chances of success are much greater. I agree, that Soriano is choice #1, but he's also the one with the most competition for his services. If they fail on Soriano, then that deal for Manny makes sense for the Angels. They need a big bat, and pitching (and IF prospects) is their position of depth. Gotta give to get. Aybar is ready to take over SS, and I tend to think Kendry Morales is more likely to take over 1B.

 

The fact that you didn't recognize any of this, leading you to ridicule this trade as not making sense for the Angels, speaks volumes about how you will be unable to deliver on your promise to "Enlighten" us.

 

Thanks for playing, Tonto.

 

 

Lol...it doesn't make sense for the Angels. Unless they lose out on EVERY SINGLE slugger on the market. I don't see the Angels pushing for Manny unless they strike out on Sori, Lee, Ramirez, etc...they will probably look at Arod first as well.

 

Lets go back in time...just a few years...remember that thing they call Irrevocable Waivers? If not, go look it up. Seems like this incredible, first-ballot Hall of Famer, was put up for free. Anyone could have had him, just take his salary. He wasn't injured, there was nothing wrong with his production. So why, a few years later, would they give up what you stated when they could have had him for free?

 

I'm not ridiculing the trade. I just don't think it makes sense for Angels. Manny falls in the same category as Arod. You just aren't getting equal value for him due to his contract. Talent-wise, the deal is pretty fair. It may actually be skewed in the Angels favor, actually [at least short-term]. It just doesn't make sense for them, due to the options CURRENTLY available to them, mainly the FA market. Truthfully, since the Yankees have let it be known they are not in the Soriano sweepstakes [which I hope is nothing more than a smokescreen, I love Sori, even though we were dating the same girl at the same time, lol], unless the Red Sox jump in, I can't see anyone else really signing Soriano over the Angels.

[Gom]

Not all trades are hardly good for both sides... How about this recent one?

 

New York- Bobby Abreu, Cory Lidle

 

Philadelphia- cash, 3 crap prospects

 

This was a salary dump. Nothing more or less. They saved what? 20 million? Would you rather have Abreau and Lidle [before plane crash] or Soriano? Lee? Zito?

 

They made this deal to free up some money in the off-season.

[ORS]

Lol...it doesn't make sense for the Angels. Unless they lose out on EVERY SINGLE slugger on the market. I don't see the Angels pushing for Manny unless they strike out on Sori' date=' Lee, Ramirez, etc...they will probably look at Arod first as well. [/quote']

It absolutely makes sense for the Angels. They would be losing Cabrera (replaced within by Aybar), Kotchman (replaced within by Morales), and Santana. They deal from depth to fill a hole. That's how this stuff works.

 

Lets go back in time...just a few years...remember that thing they call Irrevocable Waivers? If not, go look it up. Seems like this incredible, first-ballot Hall of Famer, was put up for free. Anyone could have had him, just take his salary. He wasn't injured, there was nothing wrong with his production. So why, a few years later, would they give up what you stated when they could have had him for free?

For the same reason that you think Super Sheff is such a spiffy idea for the whole league. Manny's salary would be $38M over 2 years vs. ~$100M over 5. He's more attractive because there's less time on his contract. Man, kinda sucks getting caught talking out of both sides of your mouth, doesn't it? Oh, and like I previously mentioned, the proposal you ridiculed as not making sense would have Manny getting subsidized. Try and keep up.

[riverside sluggers]

I'm not ridiculing the trade. I just don't think it makes sense for Angels. Manny falls in the same category as Arod. You just aren't getting equal value for him due to his contract. Talent-wise' date=' the deal is pretty fair. It may actually be skewed in the Angels favor, actually [at least short-term']. It just doesn't make sense for them, due to the options CURRENTLY available to them, mainly the FA market. Truthfully, since the Yankees have let it be known they are not in the Soriano sweepstakes [which I hope is nothing more than a smokescreen, I love Sori, even though we were dating the same girl at the same time, lol], unless the Red Sox jump in, I can't see anyone else really signing Soriano over the Angels.

 

um what position would the Yankees put Soriano at?

[Gom]

It absolutely makes sense for the Angels. They would be losing Cabrera (replaced within by Aybar), Kotchman (replaced within by Morales), and Santana. They deal from depth to fill a hole. That's how this stuff works.

 

For the same reason that you think Super Sheff is such a spiffy idea for the whole league. Manny's salary would be $38M over 2 years vs. ~$100M over 5. He's more attractive because there's less time on his contract. Man, kinda sucks getting caught talking out of both sides of your mouth, doesn't it? Oh, and like I previously mentioned, the proposal you ridiculed as not making sense would have Manny getting subsidized. Try and keep up.

 

First of all, the Angels are trying to win NOW. They are not going to trade their major league players unless they have to. They are not rebuilding. Try following the rest of the major leagues once in a while. They are more likely to make the trade with Aybar and Morales than with Cabrera and Kotchman. Like you said, they deal depth to fill a hole.

 

Look at your beloved Sox. MDC, Lester, Papelbon, and Hansen were supposed to be the top 4 of the best rotation in baseball in the next few years. Leaving Lester out of it, MDC was nothing to write home about, Hansen's stock dropped, and Papelbon was lights out, and now his health [sure as hell not his stuff though] is in question. Pedrioa was supposed to be a can't miss who now is looking like he may miss. A lot. That's the thing with prospects. They miss often. If I'm the Angels, I don't take that chance.

 

Manny's 34. Soriano is 30. Ramirez is 28. Lee is 30. The former is, statistically speaking, about to enter a decline, or at best, stay where he is [which is still pretty incredible, no matter which happnens]. These latter three are in their prime, and will be so for at least the next 3-4 years.

 

We agreed on one thing, that the first option for the Angels is to sign a FA. For the sake of argument, lets say they totally strike out on the FA market. Do you think the Angels will feel comfortable with two rookies in their lineup? Or would you trade those rookies for Manny? If I'm the Angels, I deal the rookies. Would you take it then?

 

P.S. Arod is a better fit, too bad about the no-trade clause.

[Gom]

um what position would the Yankees put Soriano at?

 

I'll find a spot, lol. Move Matsui or Damon to 1B. Trade Arod, put him at 3rd. Teach him to catch [j/k]. I just love his bat and speed. He is also underrated as on OF. He wasn't much of a second baseman, but Mantle was no Gold Glover at short, and neither was Dale Murphy. He has the natural talent to compete for a Gold Glove in the OF if he puts his mind to it.

[riverside sluggers]

Look at your beloved Sox. MDC' date=' Lester, Papelbon, and Hansen were supposed to be the top 4 of the best rotation in baseball in the next few years. Leaving Lester out of it, MDC was nothing to write home about, Hansen's stock dropped, and Papelbon was lights out, and now his health [sure as hell not his stuff though'] is in question. Pedrioa was supposed to be a can't miss who now is looking like he may miss. A lot. That's the thing with prospects. They miss often. If I'm the Angels, I don't take that chance.

 

Im sure you mean staff, not rotation. MDC is supposed to be the 8th inning guy of the future, Hansen the closer of the future. Still hope (minimal yes) with Hansen who is just 22. He needs to start the season in Triple A and lock some f***ing composure down

 

Im also sitting pretty that fans of any team are counting out a rookie who played in baseball for like 5 weeks

[ORS]

First of all' date=' the Angels are trying to win NOW. They are not going to trade their major league players unless they have to. They are not rebuilding. Try following the rest of the major leagues once in a while. They are more likely to make the trade with Aybar and Morales than with Cabrera and Kotchman. Like you said, they deal depth to fill a hole. [/quote']

Try following other teams? No sir, you try. They have shopped Cabrera's bad contract already and they have been very resistant to offers involving their prospects. Very. The fact that you didn't know this is wonderful irony in this instance. You must like the taste of feet, because you have a habit of putting yours in your mouth.

 

That's the thing with prospects. They miss often. If I'm the Angels, I don't take that chance.

Wood is not far behind Aybar. Their system is one of the deepest in IF talent.

 

Soriano is the only one I'd prefer to Manny. CLee is a much lighter hitting version of Manny, so I'd take the real thing there (even with the age).

 

P.S. ARod is a better fit on every roster in baseball. Thanks for the newsflash.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Miguel Tejada' date=' [b']Michael Young[/b], Orlando Cabrera, and Omar Vizquel could be available for trade.

 

Abso-freakin-lutely

[seabeachfred]

We go into the HotStove season without a key position filled, shortstop. Here's who is available in the market.....

 

Gonzo, Lugo, Royce Clayton, Craig Counsell.........and not much else.

 

I think the best two options are Gonzo or Lugo with either weighing in heavily on opposite sides of the offense/defense spectrum. Gonzo's the gloveman with no stick. Lugo is a very offensive talent for a MIF, but his D is suspect. Personally, I think Lugo's extra range over Gonzo makes up for the miscues he might make, so they should get the extra offense.

 

Craig Counsell is a David Eckstein type player who get more out of his ability than most anyone else. He is a hard nosed player who knows how to win because he has won. He would be a good fill in for two or three years until Jed Lowrie is ready. Counsell can hit, bunt, run the bases well and works the count. Of course, because of all that Epstein will probably wind up with some stiff, maybe Gonzales again which to me is the same thing.:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

[Beckett95]

Id love to see Michael Young, but what would we need to give up?

 

Would Crisp, Hansen, Murphy and Gabbard do it???

[CrespoBlows]

Id love to see Michael Young, but what would we need to give up?

 

Would Crisp, Hansen, Murphy and Gabbard do it???

 

NO

[ksushi]

To get Young, we'd have to part with Bucholz or Bowden. I would rather let go of Bucholz, because I think Bowden is more advanced for his age and is the better long term investment. Bucholz most likely also has the most trade value, him crisp and hansen ABSOLUTELY bring Young in if he is on the block. I haven't read anywhere credible saying he is though.

[riverside sluggers]

Id love to see Michael Young, but what would we need to give up?

 

Would Crisp, Hansen, Murphy and Gabbard do it???

 

Young is a free agent after the 07 season

[jacksonianmarch]

young will not be a FA after the season. He will resign.

[scaffolds]

We go into the HotStove season without a key position filled, shortstop. Here's who is available in the market.....

 

Gonzo, Lugo, Royce Clayton, Craig Counsell.........and not much else.

 

I think the best two options are Gonzo or Lugo with either weighing in heavily on opposite sides of the offense/defense spectrum. Gonzo's the gloveman with no stick. Lugo is a very offensive talent for a MIF, but his D is suspect. Personally, I think Lugo's extra range over Gonzo makes up for the miscues he might make, so they should get the extra offense.

 

Red Seat; there isn't a chance that Lugo has a better range than Gonzalez.

 

Counsil and Pedroia aren't ML starting Shortstop caliber, they are second baseman who would hurt a team defense (not just in errors, but in range) if they play in a regular basis. The Red Sox can carry Gonzalez and even Pedroia in their line up if they can get a productive firstbaseman and Pena doing his job in RF.