mota fails physical, crisp deal off

[Beckett95]

Im hoping Cinci gets back in this and we can get Riske and Coco for Clement and Shoppach.

[MC Hammer]

I do think Coco is set to have a breakout year this year, but I didn't even think Marte for Coco straight up was a good deal. So if they want Delcarmen too forget it.

 

This has been a horrible offseason, aside from 1/3rd of 1 trade(beckett). Let's not make it worse by getting Matos, or Michaels. If we can't get Coco for a reasonable price, I'd rather just suffer without a CFer for a year than take Michaels or Matos. Michaels is horrible, he has an absolutly horrible attitude, and he beats up cops. Matos is completely average across the board, if not below average.

 

I understand that we need a CF, but whatever the price is for Michaels, and Matos it's too high unless they're asking for a warm dog turd.

[a700hitter]

I have read the thread and your last post didn't say "we should just get matos" it said "we should get Matos is the Guardians are gonna act like this". Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but your statement is definatly spitefull.

Here is my first post where I suggest getting Matos as a 4th OF. This was posted before there was any news about Mota's physical and before this thread had started.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/showpost.php?p=109093&postcount=342

 

I still think we should get Matos if we only have to give up Graffy, regardless of getting or not getting Crisp. I think they should get Matos sooner than later to help in their negotiations with the Guardians. Please don't tell me what I am thinking. Pay closer attention to your own thoughts.

[ksushi]

MC, getting mato's would be a perfect move. In case you hadn't noticed the Sox are backed into a corner. Simple supply and demand. Supply on CFers, low, demand in Boston for one, very high. So what happens? Low supply high demand? Price goes up right? Yes. Exactly. Get Mato's as your fourth outfielder or as a contigency in center. Then go back and resume talks with the Guardians under the premise that "Hey, we're comfortable with Mato's" just like the yankees did with Crosby. It works. Then if the Guardians don't pan out, turn to Michaels. Worst case, you have Mato's in center for one year. Big whoop. Everyone already seems to think we're going to finish in third anyways, so why spend prospects to finish in third?

[Optimist]

What would you likely have to give up for Matos, though?

[elsrbueno]

espn--

 

 

its sounding more and more like Crisp won't be on the red sox next year.

 

one deal ive heard...

 

sox get--crisp, riske, bard

phillies get--clement

Guardians get--kearns, shoppach (maybe delcarmen??)

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/nesn/wilbur/sports_blog/blog/2006/01/25/coco_milked_for_more/

 

theres also might be some low-level prospects involved. The firing of the old Reds GM makes this deal a possibility as it was turned down by O'Brien earlier this winter.

 

If this trade can happen, this trade SHOULD happen. I assume by Phillies you mean Reds..... but the Red Sox getting Crisp, Riske, and Bard for Clement and Shoppach is a great trade. Start talking Delcarmen and I start backing down-- I don't want to give him up in THIS TRADE-- but getting Coco without giving up Marte would be a major plus.

 

With Willie Harris the potential 25th man, if the Sox CAN get a centerfielder without giving up Marte, I predict Marte will come to spring training as the 4th outfielder. No, he hasn't done it before, but it stands to reason since they've asked him if he'd play those positions, and they've said before that they want to try to get his bat in the lineup any way possible. He's probably not a candidate to play center, but Harris could do that if necessary.

 

MC, getting mato's would be a perfect move. In case you hadn't noticed the Sox are backed into a corner. Simple supply and demand. Supply on CFers, low, demand in Boston for one, very high. So what happens? Low supply high demand? Price goes up right? Yes. Exactly. Get Mato's as your fourth outfielder or as a contigency in center. Then go back and resume talks with the Guardians under the premise that "Hey, we're comfortable with Mato's" just like the yankees did with Crosby. It works. Then if the Guardians don't pan out, turn to Michaels. Worst case, you have Mato's in center for one year. Big whoop. Everyone already seems to think we're going to finish in third anyways, so why spend prospects to finish in third?

 

For what it's worth, I agree with you. Crisp is a good player but IMO he's not worth reported package and if Cleveland starts throwing names like Delcarmen into the mix I say no way. The asking price is too high.

 

Getting Matos gives us less demand IF Cleveland buys that we're willing to give him the everyday job, and I've got my doubts that the Sox brass would do that.

 

If I'm Shapiro, I stand my ground. I call the Sox' bluff and say: "Fine, we'll keep Coco." It's pretty much a game at this point, and I still think the Guardians have the upper hand though because Matos is hardly Coco Crisp.

[example1]

I would rather trade 3 Manny Delcarmen's to get Crisp and keep Marte. If there is any way to ship out Clement, MDC, Shoppach and another player to get back Crisp then I'm fine with it.

 

If the sox could look to the future with players like Crisp, Beckett, Papelbon, Lester, Marte, Pedroia, and Hansen they would be in great shape. I like Crisp a lot. I think the Sox fans would attach to him in a similar way as they attached to Orlando Cabrera. He'll hustle, he'll make good plays, he'll be speedy on the bases and he'll probably be a little bit of a sparkplug. That being said, if they can make it happen without losing Marte then I'm all for it. Probably not likely, but I would put in 2 decent players to keep Marte. Even if it falls short and Marte isn't what he could be, losing MDC and Shoppach isn't the equivalent of giving up Sandy Koufax and Yogi Berra.

[ORS]

Everyone keeps mentioning the fact that Cleveland can pull the strings because they have the upper hand, and I even thought this way too until recently, but I think their desire/need may be just as high as the Sox's is. Aaron Boone is coming off an utterly craptastic 84 OPS+ season as their 3B. That just plain sucks for a CIF; it's Erstadesque. Yeah, Lowell was bad last year too, but his career numbers are significantly better and he's moving into to the RHPH's dream park. I think they need Marte just as much as the Sox need Crisp, so the gamesmanship to try and squeeze a little more out of the Sox FO is a little misplaced IMO. Perhaps they think they have the Sox by the balls because of Damon jumping ship, and if they do they are mistaken, because this FO has said they won't make moves in reaction to what the MFY's do.

[nueva]

mota is fine with me to give away i dont see any promise in him, but marte is probelly the besst prospect around i dunno i think this trade is out the door if it isn't all ready :thumbdown

[schillingouttheks]

Meh, man, I'm not picky, but it's very hard to read your posts. Could you use punctuation a little more? Not to be an *******, I just think it would make your posts a little more clear.

[26 to 6]

mota is fine with me to give away i dont see any promise in him, but marte is probelly the besst prospect around i dunno i think this trade is out the door if it isn't all ready :thumbdown

I think you meant already lol

 

jp with ya

 

...You guys not getting Crisp is fine with me..but you guys getting Crisp is also fine with me (Im not really looking forward to getting eaten alive by Andy Marte for 20 years)...just get something DONE! lol

[jsinger121]

marte but is fine prospect but there are alot better prospects than him......delmon young, brandon wood, justin upton, bj upton, stephen drew, etc.....i love marte and i agree i want to keep him if we can revive this reds 3 way deal.

[example1]

Everyone keeps mentioning the fact that Cleveland can pull the strings because they have the upper hand, and I even thought this way too until recently, but I think their desire/need may be just as high as the Sox's is. Aaron Boone is coming off an utterly craptastic 84 OPS+ season as their 3B. That just plain sucks for a CIF; it's Erstadesque. Yeah, Lowell was bad last year too, but his career numbers are significantly better and he's moving into to the RHPH's dream park. I think they need Marte just as much as the Sox need Crisp, so the gamesmanship to try and squeeze a little more out of the Sox FO is a little misplaced IMO. Perhaps they think they have the Sox by the balls because of Damon jumping ship, and if they do they are mistaken, because this FO has said they won't make moves in reaction to what the MFY's do.

 

 

Don't you think Aaron Boone is a better option than Adam Stern though? I would much rather go into a season with Aaron Boone as my 3B than with Stern as my CF. Otherwise, though, I can see why CLE would be a little desperate too. I wouldn't want EITHER in my potent/high-powered offense to be quite honest.

 

I think initially CLE was in a position of power, and now they may have shot themselves in the foot. I'm not mad about utilizing someone not named Crisp in CF. I'm not willing to watch the sox get hosed on a deal including much more than Marte and Mota for Crisp +.

[example1]

marte but is fine prospect but there are alot better prospects than him......delmon young, brandon wood, justin upton, bj upton, stephen drew, etc.....i love marte and i agree i want to keep him if we can revive this reds 3 way deal.

 

Yeah, but this is one of those times where you're actually evaluating someone's "prospectness". That's like the least relavent thing: how highly they're regarded at the upper echalon of prospects. I'm down with differentiating between prospects on the level of Moss and Marte. That makes sense. But at the level of the 10 ten prospects it really will only matter when they step on the field. Who knows whether Marte will be better than Brandon Wood, or Stephen Drew? In any case, all of them will get MASSIVE amounts of playing time for some big league club, as opposed to guys like Moss who may or may not.

[nueva]

Sorry about that i'm used to talking on Gaming forums and all they use is "cyber slang." Ill fix up my posts now

[schillingouttheks]

Haha there we go. Much better

[schillingouttheks]

whoooooops

[nueva]

Im not trying to be off-topic here but if we could maybe give away another Prospect in that trade and keep clement. We could save clement for maybe a "BIGGER" trade consisting of maybe manny and clement i don't no.

[schillingouttheks]

I don't want Manny to go anywhere at this stage. We have enough starters to send Clement on his way and just fill the necessary holes. If we get Crisp, and sign Gonzalez, we are in some serious business to contend again.

[jsinger121]

trade manny....6 weeks from spring training.....real smart idea.

[nueva]

Wasn't thinking like that. Forgot about how the off-season went like that (snaps finger). Well than i still believe we can get better for Manny if he doesn't want to play here. But Gonzalez, Crisp and Manny could make a pretty good batting order. O yeah and tune into WEEI tommorow for some reason i think something big is gonna happen .

[jsinger121]

alex gonzalez can't hit at all. he is an offensive liability.

[Rdsxmbnt]

If we wouldnt be trading Marte then we pretty much HAVE to trade either Clement or Arroyo. Not really a way around that unless your thinking of including a Lester/Papelbon prospects which is certainly not happening. Fact of the matter is, if you can get Crisp for a SP (which we have 7 of) and you get to keep Marte then thats one amazing move. If theres any truth to it, is yet to be seen...

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

alex gonzalez can't hit at all. he is an offensive liability.

 

He did hit 20+ HRs in a season didn't he?? Besides you don't need to focus on hitting for the guys up the middle. They are the most important players on defense (SS, 2B, and CF). Alex Gonzalez is an excellent defensive player which is what you want...so who cares if he can't hit?? He can bat 9th in the lineup and I'm sure he will do just fine with the protection.

[jsinger121]

for the money it will require to get him the red sox would be better starting cora instead. right now i have heard gonzalez wants 2 yrs 10 million....i'm sorry but for that money i am going to pass.

[schillingouttheks]

alex gonzalez can't hit at all. he is an offensive liability.

That's not the point. If we get Crisp, a solid lead off man, we can afford to take a dip in the offensive part of the game. Look at the ChiSox. They were not based on offense last year, they had good pitching, and great defense. This team has enough power in it to take a dip in power at SS.

[jsinger121]

who says we are even getting crisp right now....from the way it looks the deal is pretty much dead.

[example1]

who says we are even getting crisp right now....from the way it looks the deal is pretty much dead.

 

I don't get the impression that the deal is dead. The deal is as it should be: quiet. So much gossip and speculation and leaking. The red sox are going to make some move for a CF. The question is whether they need to give up Marte to get one. I sure hope they don't have to. They have 7 starting pitchers for godssakes! I mean, don't teams have any interest in SPs + money? I would think so.

[schillingouttheks]

That's not the point. If we get Crisp, a solid lead off man, we can afford to take a dip in the offensive part of the game. Look at the ChiSox. They were not based on offense last year, they had good pitching, and great defense. This team has enough power in it to take a dip in power at SS.

I bolded the key word.

[schillingouttheks]

for the money it will require to get him the red sox would be better starting cora instead. right now i have heard gonzalez wants 2 yrs 10 million....i'm sorry but for that money i am going to pass.

who says we are even getting crisp right now....from the way it looks the deal is pretty much dead.

So, essentially you're saying that even if we don't get Crisp, you're still willing to start Cora, who has a WORSE bat than Gonzalez? Sorry, we need to sign Gonzalez if we don't get Crisp, we can't have a CF and a SS who have depleted bats. If we have Crisp who brings a solid bat to the lineup, than I'm all for starting Cora at SS. However, we can't a dip with the bat anywhere on the field if we don't find that one bat we need. Crisp brings it.

 

No Crisp and no Gonzalez just can't happen. We need 1 of the 2. And if not Crisp, then another CF who brings a bat to the lineup.