Red Sox Sign Julian Tavarez

[ksushi]

A few points. I'm pretty sure tradition notions are that pitching and defense wins, contrary to what you argue.

 

If you read my post, and caught yourself up with what we're talking about, we're talking about a single player here, not a team philosophy. I'm the biggest pitching and defense whore on this board so don't bother telling me that.

 

You also argue that defense is the true gauge of a players value. This is completely close minded. Obviously its both.

 

Once again, not talking team here, talking about one specific player. In this case, defense is going to be the key at SS and CF. We're not looking for hitting because we already have it. Manny and Ortiz at 3-4 in a lineup is enough offense to win you a division if you have the defense and the pitching to put a stopper on the other team. Crisps upside is his bat, Reeds upside is his defense. Crisp has a short arm and can't go back on balls. He gets bad jumps and takes bad routes in general, but his speed can compensate but really he is best suited for left field. Reed has also struggled with his routes but he's got a solid arm and can go back and charge balls well. He also had a potent bat in the minors, so its likely he'll hit. Now, I'm not going to keep lobbying Reed ( I

 

Defense is not going to be what wins the east, offense isn't, pitching isn't, its gonna be the team that puts the combination of the three together the best, and I really hate when people argue that one doesn't matter, or is less significant, no matter which one it is.

 

This is where you are confused. The AL east is teeming with good hitters already. Each team in the division is stocked with hitters, even the devil rays have a good core of young hitters and they will score runs. Therefore, its the team that allows the fewest that will win this division. I know you have to have an equal balance of all three, pitching hitting and defense, but when hitting is so abundant you have to focus on bringing in the defense to stop the other teams from having their way with you. Get me yet? I have one foot out the door right now, but if you're not getting my drift let me know and when I come back I'll go on another rant. Its fun.

 

No one said errors are a good judge of defensive ability, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to argue they aren't. Thats obviously true.

 

Actually, someone a couple pages back said that Coco had less errors in one hundred and something games in center than reed. Something like that, so yeah someone did actually say that.

 

The press determined Coco Crisp is our top priority based on information from the front office. The fact that both Gammons and Edes have reported it makes it more likely. Sure its possible its not true, but given the reporters I'd say chances are they are right.

 

Why? Sure, writers have their in's but I don't think the front office is really saying anything. You'd be hardpressed to find me an article right now where someone from the front office actually said this first hand. They've got a list of guys right now, and based on what teams we have been most in contact with, they draw their connections. I don't think its safe to assume that just because Edes is a beast that he always has the in. I'm probably the biggest Gammons lover here, I read everything he writes and I take it as gospel for the most part but I just don't think that the Red Sox will be willing to pay the Crisp price tag.

 

Would you give up a potential perennial 40/100 guy for Crisp? I doubt it, if you said yes, you'd either be crazy, or you just don't see Marte's value. He's a potential GGer with power to all fields. No way do I give up a bluechip for crisp.

 

Also, I haven't seen anyone on this message board say we should give up marte for Crisp. I will say I would be happy if we get him for Mota and someone else, like arroyo/clement/Wells, or a 3 way where one of those guys goes somewhere else. The reports are that the Mariners are asking for Lester or Pappelbon in a trade for Reed. Judging by your stance on prospects I doubt you want to give up one of them, even though you say Reed is your top choice because Crisp would cost Marte.

 

The Guardians are said to have drawn the line at Marte, if no Marte then no deal. Given Crisps defensive ability, I wouldn't be willing to part with Marte or Mota. We need closer insurance if Foulke shits the bed again and I think Mota is our best insurance right now with Timlin a close second. Price tags always come down though. If they were willing to do Crisp for Arroyo straight up, and the Mariners still were pining for Lester, I'd do the deal for crisp. I suspect that the M's will chill out and we'll likely end up landing Reed for Arroyo and Shoppach or Clement and Shoppach. I'd do that deal especially after signing flaherty, it looks like thats what the sox would be prepared to do.

[guapo34]

I really hate to keep coming back to this cuz its such a stupid argument but i can't just ignore you. You say you're talking about a single player, not team philosophy. It doesn't really matter. My argument is still that you have to consider both offense and defense, while for someone you seem to be arguing that defense is far more important. I'm not saying you put a guy out there that can't play the position. I'm arguing that a worse defensive player can still be more valuable if hes a lot better offensively. You somehow refuse to believe that possible.

 

The idea that since other teams in the league have good hitting so we should focus on defense makes no sense. We should put the best players, and the best team out there. If its easier to get offensive players, and we'll be better with them overall, then thats the way you go. If great defensive players are better overall cuz their offense isn't much worse, then great you go that way.

 

It still makes no sense that you think the media is wrong while you call yourself the biggest gammons lover here. If you think hes wrong, then you either think hes being lyed to or is lying in his report. And yet you read everything he writes? Why? so you can assume the opposite is true?

 

I guess the one thing we do agree on is if the price is a lot cheaper for Reed you go after him, and if the price is a lot cheaper for Crisp you go after him. I never said we should give up marte for Crisp. I've said exactly the opposite. So I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring that up again.

[Cityofchampions33]

Yeah just drop it, the whole thing has no relevance to Tavarez.

[ksushi]

Sorry, thought I was on a baseball forum. Lighten up, enjoy some baseball talk.

 

My entire point is that we already have offense, so offense isn't a sticking point when shopping for a CFer. You're taking this as a blanket statement. Read what I'm posting. Sure when you evaluate players you look at all aspects of their game, but so long as they aren't going to hit under the mendoza line, in this instance it doesn't matter. You're getting me all wrong here. I do think defense is very important, just as important as offense, but right now we have all the offense we need and centerfield is a key position defensively.

 

The idea that because we have a lot of hitting we don't need to stock pile more from a position where defense takes favor makes plenty of sense.

[example1]

In this day and age you should be able to get a CF who is both a good fielder and who hits well enough to add something. If our CFer hits like Alex Cora then I think we could do better, but he doesn't need to hit like Manny.

 

All of that grey area in between (good hitters vs. good fielders in CF) seems very hard to quantify. Defense itself is very hard to quantify, so I suppose a grey area involving fielding vs. hitting is hard too. In any case, I HOPE the red sox have enough offense. They should, with Manny and Ortiz (not to mention the rest of their good hitters) but its not the same team as the last 3 years and I don't expect 900 runs. So the question becomes how many runs are we losing and how many runs are we preventing.

 

If reed puts up numbers offensively like last year I can't imagine that Crisp wouldn't more than make up for that with his bat (in terms of winning games, that is). But if Reed hits something like .280, .355, .450 and plays great defense, then he might be more valuable. It is very hard to tell, but if anyone has any ideas about figuring this out (ORS?) feel free to interject.

 

All in all, I hope we either get a baller (see: balla) in CF who just mashes the ball, or an above average fielding CF with a good arm. One side or the other is fine, just be very good either offensively or defensively and we'll be fine.

[spartans]

we need a leadoff hitter, assuming we dont lose Manny we just need one solid leadoff hitter and all will be alrigth

[Plumpamania]

Mark Loretta

Kevin Youkilis

 

 

Will do fine in the 1/2 spots of the lineup.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Mark Loretta shouldn't hit leadoff. IMO, he's the best 2-hole hitter in baseball. Youkilis should hit leadoff. He'd have a crazy high OBP and set the table for Manny and Papi.

[Redguitar985]

Loretta said himself in an interview, that he can go in several different places, like the number 2 spot, or down in the 6 or 7 spot, but not the leadoff spot. I don't think he would work there.

[riverside sluggers]

I think its evident by now that Loretta wont be hitting below Papi and Ortiz.

 

He and Youkilis would be able fill the losses of the previous top 2 of the order, Damon & Renteria

 

Batting 1st

Loretta in 137 games- (.298 avg) (.365 OBP)

Youkilis, 2 games experience

 

Batting 2nd

Loretta in 664 games- (.299 avg) (.361 OBP)

Youkilis in 17 games- (.274 avg) (.361 OBP)

[spartans]

I never thought of Youk at leadoff, thats def a possiblity tho, remember that ranger game wen he played leadoff, he rolled

[krazeebrainz]

Spartans,

 

This is true, but when I think of a lead-off batter, I think of one that has speed which in turn creates havok for opposing pitchers. I think that Gathwright would be an ideal lead-off hitter.

[a700hitter]

A leadoff hitter should be able to go first to third, and Youk is a bit of a turtle. It would take a minimum of two hit to score him. The comparisons to Boggs are completely unwarranted. While Boggs was also slow, he hit a boat load of doubles every year, and his OBP was out of sight. Youk will be lucky if his OBP is as high as Boggs' BA.

[spartans]

Thats not true necessarly. I agree that speed is necessary, but necessarly soley in the lead-off spot. To be honest you just want your leadoff to have a high OBP and I think Youk can provide that. Granted hes not your typicall leadoff hitter but if the sox can add speed somewere else in the line-up, I wouldnt be surprised to see youk batting 1st

[Plumpamania]

Youk will have a great OB. I still don't see why you guys are hating.

[riverside sluggers]

Spartans,

 

This is true, but when I think of a lead-off batter, I think of one that has speed which in turn creates havok for opposing pitchers. I think that Gathwright would be an ideal lead-off hitter.

 

Nothing to take away from you "krazee". I do respect your opinion.

 

Its just I dont have that much big love for acquiring Gathright, let alone trying to work with Tampa Bay. I do agree with speed, that valuable asset he does have. But plate patience like taking fair share of walks, something much needed in a leadoff hitter, he does not. His best production rather comes in the #9 hole

He bodes a career .271 batting avg & .316 OBP

[krazeebrainz]

Point well taken riverside. The reason Gathwright entered my mind was when these talks of Johnny Peralta entered the forum. I figured that with Peralta's offensive prowess, taking a chance on a good fielding speed demon like Gathwright may work well.

 

The other angle to look at with Gathwright is his age. I believe he is going to turn 22 this season...I feel that if this kid was taught to take a pitch-or-two, hit the ball on the ground and really learn how to bunt he could very well be a .285 hitter with a much higher O.B.P.

 

Well gotta go, off to work...

-krazeebrainz

[ksushi]

A leadoff hitter should be able to go first to third, and Youk is a bit of a turtle. It would take a minimum of two hit to score him. The comparisons to Boggs are completely unwarranted. While Boggs was also slow, he hit a boat load of doubles every year, and his OBP was out of sight. Youk will be lucky if his OBP is as high as Boggs' BA.

 

Thats an awesome point, I just read this and haven't read of the posts under it yet, but this is key. You do need a leadoff guy who can score from second on a single or get to 3rd from first. This is something thats key. Moneyball is all well and good but I do think that speed at the top does matter. I hadn't really thought of that. I am slightly less in favor of youk leading off now although I do like his OBP and wouldn't be upset at all if he did lead off.

 

but yeah, care to make that last statement interesting? I will put money on Youk having a higher OBP, if given everyday duties, than Boggs 320ish career BA. I think its .328 someone might have to give 'er a looksy, I'm on the lazy side and plan to not look it up myself. If thats his career batting average I guarentee youk will have higher OBP than that.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

I know this slighty off topic ( but most of this discussion is ), this thread seems to cntered now on who leads off. It seems that the consensus is a guy who has a good OBP, average, and speed ( sounds like someone we had ). Yet we have two positions yet to be filled, short stop and center field. Normally, these positions are filled by some of the faster more athletic players. Not to mention, you have no idea ( at least I don't how's going to be traded to get them ). Speculating on trades is one thing, but making out, and debating, a batting order for players you don't have is somewhat ridiculous. Just my opinion.

[ksushi]

Eh, its not like there is a lot going on in baseball right now, so gotta find a way to pass the time i suppose.

[guapo34]

Thats an awesome point, I just read this and haven't read of the posts under it yet, but this is key. You do need a leadoff guy who can score from second on a single or get to 3rd from first. This is something thats key. Moneyball is all well and good but I do think that speed at the top does matter. I hadn't really thought of that. I am slightly less in favor of youk leading off now although I do like his OBP and wouldn't be upset at all if he did lead off.

 

but yeah, care to make that last statement interesting? I will put money on Youk having a higher OBP, if given everyday duties, than Boggs 320ish career BA. I think its .328 someone might have to give 'er a looksy, I'm on the lazy side and plan to not look it up myself. If thats his career batting average I guarentee youk will have higher OBP than that.

 

You might be lazy but you have a good memory, its exactly .328. I'd be willing to bet Youks has a higher OBP than Boggs' career best BA of .366. A .328 OBP out of Youk would be beyond awful.

 

Of course ideally you'd like your leadoff hitter to have some speed. I don't think theres anyone out there in the rumored trades thats fast and hits well enough to hit leadoff though. Joey Gathwright? Jeremy Reed? I wouldn't mind getting either of these guys, but would much rather them hit at the bottom of the order with Youk and Loretta 1-2.

[Plumpamania]

Bill James' Handbook 2006 Predictions show that Youk will have a good year. I'm waiting on PETCOA to see what they say too.

 

Check out my new thread for this.

[seabeachfred]

oh my goodness i thought we would never sign someone. i was dying of boredom.....an alirght pickup i guess...his 4+ career era isnt stellar but watever

We're all bored to tears with the inaction my friend. Taverez was a good pickup for us. The guy is fiery and hates to lose. He also has good stuff and will become a fan favorite in Boston. Unless I am very wrong he is made for the Red Sox

[jacksonianmarch]

Ok, as long as the $$ and time aren't big. One of these pitchers (Mota, Saenz, Tavarez) are likely to suck, one of these pitchers (Hansen, Delcarmen, Meredith) are likely to be pitching well enough for a call up. As long as the flexibility to place on waivers remains, then this is not a bad pick up.

 

sorry to dredge up old posts, but I am trying to gather a little history on this site. This was a good call.

[RedSoxRooter]

Yeah, nice call. Funny, out of Mota, Seanez and Tavarez, I really thought Mota was going to be the good one. I think he just got DFA'd or DL'd.

[Optimist]

We're all bored to tears with the inaction my friend. Taverez was a good pickup for us. The guy is fiery and hates to lose. He also has good stuff and will become a fan favorite in Boston. Unless I am very wrong he is made for the Red Sox

 

You were very wrong.

[yeszir]

You were very wrong.

He was right about the fiery aspect.

http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/03/27/1143498926_7034.jpg

[jacksonianmarch]

He was right about the fiery aspect.

http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/03/27/1143498926_7034.jpg

 

Looks like some S&M s*** right there.

[schillingouttheks]

Mark Loretta shouldn't hit leadoff. IMO, he's the best 2-hole hitter in baseball. Youkilis should hit leadoff. He'd have a crazy high OBP and set the table for Manny and Papi.

I'll also bring this one back up

[jacksonianmarch]

I'll also bring this one back up

 

wow, I do defend Loretta, but wow. Best 2 hole hitter in baseball? One MVP candidate would likely disagre with that.