Ortiz a Shoo-In for MVP

[example1]

This has probably been said, but this is why A-Rod is the MVP. If you compare him with Ortiz, they have similar stats. A-Rod plays the field which gives him a leg up in some peoples minds. Now if you took A-Rod out of the Yankees lineup, you would be taking out the only consistent player on that team (maybe with the exception of Rivera). But if you took out Papi, you would still have Manny, Varitek, Mueller, and a few other guys who have had very solid seasons. Now you might argue that Ortiz has more game winning hits, but I think those are overrated, because they count for the same amount whether they come in the 1st inning, 9th inning or 983rd inning. The award is Most VALUABLE Player. And I interpret that as the player who has the most value to his team. And this year I truly believe it was A-Rod. You could make a case for Ortiz, and an even better one for Victor Martinez, but from a non-biased point of view, A-Rod is the MVP.

 

Go ahead, bash away. It will just show how biased you people are for thinking Ortiz is more valuable.

 

I don't think this is an issue of BIAS, this is a legitimate argument. But I'm glad to know that you're capable to taking a non-biased point of view, while the rest of us are completely biased and subjective.

 

If you took A-Rod out of the lineup you would be taking out the only consistent player on that team? Are you kidding me? Jeter is hitting over .300 with over 100 runs. Sheffield has 102 RBI. Giambi leads the league in OBP. Matsui has 110 RBI. So A-Rod has done well all year... so what? You said that Manny, Varitek and Mueller are having very solid seasons... are their seasons MORE solid than, say, Sheffield, Giambi and Matsui? Look at the numbers, obviously not. Tek has had a great year, as has manny but look at RBI's, HR's, OBP and OPS. There is little difference at all, if any it favors the Yankees.

 

I'm so sick of all these "poor Yankee" arguments about A-Rod. The fact of the matter is this: The yankees have had a disappointing year. They could have had the same disappointing year if you put Bill Mueller at 3rd for them. They haven't been hurt by their offense (currently they are 2nd in Average, 3rd in Runs, 3rd in hits, 3rd in total bases, 2nd in Home runs and 3rd in RBI. Not to mention the fact that they are 2nd in walks, 3rd in Slugging and 2nd in OBP). So don't give me the argument that without A-Rod the Yankees would be a weak offensive team. Maybe CONSISTENCY isn't their strength. Giambi sucks this week? That's okay, Matsui is hot. Jeter struggling? Okay, Sheffield is on fire.

 

I'm not saying that Ortiz should necessarily win the MVP. A-Rod is extremely deserving and if he wins I won't be disappointed. However, Ortiz has done everything possible to win the award. He has knocked in more runs than A-Rod, the same number of HR's. He comes through in the clutch and, yes, like you said, an RBI in the 1st is, in theory, as valuable as one in the 9th, or 10th. But if you're at home and hit a walk-off home run, that run is not one that the opposing team has a chance to make up later in the game. They can't bunt a runner over, they can't sacrifice, or squeeze or anything. It is an exclamination point and a nail in the coffin.

 

Finally, and this has little to do with the voting but A LOT to do with value:

Ortiz: $5,250,000

A-Rod: $25,705,118

 

Now, if your argument is that A-Rod is better because of his FIELDING, then my argument is: do you think you could get equal or better fielding for the remaining 20,545,118 dollars difference? I think you probably could get someone who would be as effective in the field for that amount of money. if I were starting a team I would EASILY choose Ortiz over A-Rod, knowing that with the remaining 20 million dollars not only would I get the same offensive output, but I could easily make up the difference in fielding, while ALSO adding some value offensively.

 

The sox are a more balanced team, but the only reason they can be balanced is because they have Ortiz and Manny. The yankees are a top heavy team, Jeter, Rod, Sheffield, Matsui and Giambi have carried them this year (in varied forms).

 

So, again, A-Rod is deserving. Ortiz is deserving. I don't much care who wins, but don't pretend that the Yankees would not be anywhere without A-rod. Look at the stats first.. Look at the RBI's, and the HR's, the OBP and the Runs scored and then come back and say that it has been ALL A-Rod to the same degree that the Sox have been ALL ortiz. Offensively, at least, Ortiz is more valuable.

[26 to 6]

actually A-Rod has 1 more Home Run.

 

Good arguements. But I dont think its about which team would be worse without their MVP candidate.

[26 to 6]

I was responding to this.

my bad

 

Remmy said this right. If the DH can't win the MVP than their shouldn't be a DH. Why not just tell every DH at the beggining of the season that they can't win a MVP award?

A DH can win MVP. But the thig here is that A-Rod and Ortiz's seasons are so even offensively, that you need something to push one over the top. And because A-Rod is a pretty good 3Bmen as opposed to Ortiz who is a DH, that pushes him over the top. If this award were based solely on hitting than this debate would be more than fair. But the fact of the matter is that it is not the Most Valueable Hitter, but the Most Valueable Player. It is pretty clear that Ortiz is the Silver Slugger winner at the DH position, the award for the best hitter. Whether or not he wins the MVP award, for the best player, has yet to be determined. And it will do us no good argueing because we are not the ones who decide.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

Well said 26.

 

Arod=Ortiz hitting wise.

Arod>>Ortiz in everything else.

[HOFer51]

Only time where a DH can definitely win MVP is if he blows away the competition. If its about the same like right now, then I dont see Ortiz winning over A-Rod.

 

If Ortiz had like 55 Hrs and 150 RBIs then he would win the MVP hands down.

[example1]

Ortiz is about to break the record for most home runs hit by a lefty Red Sox and most home runs hit by a DH. He is, therefore, putting up the greatest season by a DH EVER, which to me, is worthy of discussion in the MVP discussion. Is A-Rod's season the best ever by a 3rd baseman? Is it the best since the DH era started? I don't know the answer, just asking...

 

Also, the same argument--that DH's don't field so they shouldn't win the MVP--should be extended to pitchers as well. Pitchers don't hit, and they only pitch every 5 days. Therefore, lets remove:

 

Dennis Eckersley (1992)

Roger Clemens (1986)

Willie Hernandez (1984)

Rollie Fingers (1981)

Vida Blue (1971)

Denny McLain (1968)

Bob Gibson (1968)

Sandy Koufax (1963)

Don Newcombe (1956)

Bobby Shantz (1952)

Hal Newhouser (1945, 1944)

Spud Chandler (1943)

etc.,

 

From the list of MVP winners.

 

Also, the same argument says that DH's shouldn't win MVP awards in division, league or world series either, since they don't play the field. So, all the pro-A-Rod folks on here: who SHOULD have won the MVP in the ALCS last year? I thought Ortiz's 2 game winning hits were pretty impressive and worthy of the award. Who was more deserving?

 

As Ortiz says "I never saw anybody win the MVP because they won the Gold Glove and hit .230. You win the MVP because you help your ballclub, you win games whenever your team needs it and because you put up some numbers."

 

You all are saying that if Ortiz had gone out and played mediocre defense all year then he might deserve the MVP, but since the sox have better 1st basemen Ortiz doesn't deserve the MVP.

[ARod2212]

Ortiz is about to break the record for most home runs hit by a lefty Red Sox and most home runs hit by a DH. He is, therefore, putting up the greatest season by a DH EVER, which to me, is worthy of discussion in the MVP discussion. Is A-Rod's season the best ever by a 3rd baseman? Is it the best since the DH era started? I don't know the answer, just asking...

Rodriguez has already broken the record for most homers by a righty at Yankee Stadium.

 

Again, extremely simplified.

 

Defensive play + offensive play = total value

 

It doesn't matter if he's able to play the field, he hasn't. And for the 46th time, I'm not saying a DH can't win it, but Ortiz' numbers don't justify it considering Rodriguez has been pretty much better across the board. A designated hitter has to without a doubt prove he's having a better offensive year, to make up for his lack of defense and Ortiz isn't doing that. Case closed.

[soxie thefangirl]

Ortiz hits way better when it COUNTS.

[yankeessuck013]

Ortiz hits way better when it COUNTS.

 

They flashed the numbers for Ortiz and ARod the other day on BBTN. While they're pretty close on just about everything, there was a signifcant gap between the two in terms of BA with RISP.

 

I don't recall the exact figures, but the graphic did support the theory that Ortiz comes up big when his team needs him most, whereas ARod is at his best in 11-3 ballgames.

[YanksHater213]

Ortiz hits way better when it COUNTS.

So your saying the first 7 innings dont count? Dont get me wrong, I love Ortiz's big hits, and hope he wins this, I just think A-Rod has been more valuable to his team.

[example1]

They flashed the numbers for Ortiz and ARod the other day on BBTN. While they're pretty close on just about everything, there was a signifcant gap between the two in terms of BA with RISP.

 

I don't recall the exact figures, but the graphic did support the theory that Ortiz comes up big when his team needs him most, whereas ARod is at his best in 11-3 ballgames.

 

maybe it was this:

"Close and Late" (Avg, OBP, SLG, OPS) (AB/R/H/HR/RBI/SO)

 

A-Rod: (.300, .424, .542, .967)(70AB/ 14R/ 21H/ 4HR/ 12RBI/ 19SO)

Ortiz: (.319, .425, .764, 1.189) (72AB, 18R, 23H, 9HR, 28 RBI, 15 SO)

 

Or this: (weird stats)

 

Runners On:

A-Rod (.297, .402, .548, .950)(279AB, 88R, 83H, 20HR, 94RBI, 42 BB, 65 SO)

Ortiz: (.313, .426, .579, .1005) (259AB, 82R, 81H, 16HR, 105 RBI, 56BB, 37SO)

 

That's with 20 FEWER at bats, and 14 MORE walks.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

Jeeze, this is a really frustrating thread to read. Please, for one minute, forget about the rivalry.

 

Once you have forgotten...

 

Please tell me which would get your vote for MVP:

 

Guy number one: Great bat & high OBP

Guy number two: Great bat, has a high OBP, great defensive skills, can start the running game and not one to sneeze at for Gold Glove

[HOFer51]

Jeeze, this is a really frustrating thread to read. Please, for one minute, forget about the rivalry.

 

Once you have forgotten...

 

Please tell me which would get your vote for MVP:

 

Guy number one: Great bat & high OBP

Guy number two: Great bat, has a high OBP, great defensive skills, can start the running game and not one to sneeze at for Gold Glove

I cant believe that A-Rod had a year to remember in 02 had outstanding defense, and only lost on the MVP because his team sucked, then won it on the same bad team the next year.......

 

 

Back on track, I wuld take Guy number two, who incidentally is the only guy in the AL with a OPS over 1.000

[Pinstripe_Pride]

I wuld take Guy number two, who incidentally is the only guy in the AL with a OPS over 1.000

 

 

Ding ding ding!!

 

We have a winner. :thumbsup:

[redsoxrules]

I cant believe that A-Rod had a year to remember in 02 had outstanding defense, and only lost on the MVP because his team sucked, then won it on the same bad team the next year.......

 

 

Back on track, I wuld take Guy number two, who incidentally is the only guy in the AL with a OPS over 1.000

 

and for the second time im saying this last years MVP didnt lead in OPS and was under 1000

[HOFer51]

and for the second time im saying this last years MVP didnt lead in OPS and was under 1000

last year's MVP went on a tear to get his team into the playoffs, so it all balanced out. We'll have to see how Ortiz and A-Rod carry their teams down the next two weeks.

[redsoxrules]

Only time where a DH can definitely win MVP is if he blows away the competition. If its about the same like right now, then I dont see Ortiz winning over A-Rod.

 

If Ortiz had like 55 Hrs and 150 RBIs then he would win the MVP hands down.

 

hands down eh? well he will be pretty close to those numbers by the time the season is over

[ARod2212]

hands down eh? well he will be pretty close to those numbers by the time the season is over

His numbers aren't better than Rodriguez'. Ortiz has far less merit for the award, other than 'clutchness'. We've been over this 40,000 times. Unless Ortiz has way better numbers than everyone else, there is no way he should win. He doesn't, so he should not win.

[example1]

I cant believe that A-Rod had a year to remember in 02 had outstanding defense, and only lost on the MVP because his team sucked, then won it on the same bad team the next year.......

 

 

Back on track, I wuld take Guy number two, who incidentally is the only guy in the AL with a OPS over 1.000

 

That's such a convincing statistic I can't believe nobody mentioned it earlier. But I checked the stats, and Ortiz currently has an OPS of 1.018 (.397 OBP, 621 SLG), which means that A-Rod is NOT the only guy in the AL with an OPS over 1.000

[example1]

His numbers aren't better than Rodriguez'. Ortiz has far less merit for the award, other than 'clutchness'. We've been over this 40,000 times. Unless Ortiz has way better numbers than everyone else, there is no way he should win. He doesn't, so he should not win.

 

Why dis the 20 RBI's that Ortiz has that A-Rod doesn't? That's a run he drives in (i.e., picking up his teammates) every eight games that A-Rod doesn't drive in. So in eight games ortiz averages one more rbi than A-rod. Over the course of a season that's HUGE.

 

In Runs Created A-Rod is a bit better, although i really think that's because of Ortiz's lower GIDP numbers (Ortiz is SLOW) and A-Rod's SB's. .

 

However, Ortiz still has more XBH (85) than Rodriguez (71). ARod has been hit by a pitch much more often (15 to 1) than Ortiz, which certainly helps the OBP. Of course, with the tying run on third, I want Ortiz up due to his higher sac fly totals (9 to 2).

 

Ortiz leads the league in Runs, Homeruns and RBI, not to mention walks, and SLG. A-Rod is something like 17th in Range factor and 18th in Zone Rating (meaning he's a largely average 3rd baseman in those terms). You also concede clutchness, which means that only the fielding is the difference and A-rod isn't much better than your average MLB third baseman in that category. I'll take the 20 RBI's rather than average fielding any day of the week. Especially with a 200+ mill payroll; you can buy an average 3rd baseman. .

[riverside sluggers]

with 11 games left Ortiz is set to have 50 +/- HRS, and 150 +/- RBIS

[yeszir]

Ortiz is the greatest player I have ever seen.

[example1]

Seriously, the dude is an absolute monster at the plate.

[example1]

2 2R HR tonight, along with 2 hits and 4 runs scored in a game the sox absolutely HAD to win. He's clutch, he's consistent, he manages to get XBH without speed and he has 20+ more RBI's than A-Rod does.

[ARod2212]

Why dis the 20 RBI's that Ortiz has that A-Rod doesn't? That's a run he drives in (i.e., picking up his teammates) every eight games that A-Rod doesn't drive in. So in eight games ortiz averages one more rbi than A-rod. Over the course of a season that's HUGE.

 

In Runs Created A-Rod is a bit better, although i really think that's because of Ortiz's lower GIDP numbers (Ortiz is SLOW) and A-Rod's SB's. .

 

However, Ortiz still has more XBH (85) than Rodriguez (71). ARod has been hit by a pitch much more often (15 to 1) than Ortiz, which certainly helps the OBP. Of course, with the tying run on third, I want Ortiz up due to his higher sac fly totals (9 to 2).

 

Ortiz leads the league in Runs, Homeruns and RBI, not to mention walks, and SLG. A-Rod is something like 17th in Range factor and 18th in Zone Rating (meaning he's a largely average 3rd baseman in those terms). You also concede clutchness, which means that only the fielding is the difference and A-rod isn't much better than your average MLB third baseman in that category. I'll take the 20 RBI's rather than average fielding any day of the week. Especially with a 200+ mill payroll; you can buy an average 3rd baseman. .

You go with RBIs, XBH.. these are hugely determined by ballpark and team situations. How about percentages, a little more of a fair assessment of hitting.

OBP

Rodriguez .419

Ortiz .397

 

Rodriguez is better (in my opinion, the best category to judge a hitter's success at the plate. It is number of chances vs. amount of success, pretty good way to see how good they do at the dish.)

 

SLG

Rodriguez .609

Ortiz .621

(This is where Ortiz has made his hay, but most baseball people will agree that OBP is the more important half of the following stat.)

 

OPS

Rodriguez 1.029

Ortiz 1.018

(Ortiz has made progress, but still Rodriguez is better)

 

 

You can take Range Factor and Zone rating all you want. I for one, don't buy into it. Jeter improved in both categories last year, when the Yankees had the groundball inducing Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez, and strikeout/flyball guys Pettitte, Clemens and Wells out of the rotation. I don't think Jeter got that much better defensively. It's all circumstantial. I'll go with a guy going 62 games without an error at one of, if not the most difficult position to do that. I think someone who posts the best errorless streak in 7 years deserves some defensive credit.

 

Hey if you want to get into defensive stats, why not go with Win Shares? Rodriguez has 27.7 Batting WS and 3.0 Defensive. Ortiz has 27.2 batting WS, and 0.1 Defensive. Averaged total of 31 > 27. (If you don't know what Win Shares is, don't just dismiss it out of ignorance. If you want to make an argument against this part of my post, know what you are talking about.)

 

This belittling Rodriguez' defense doesn't add to Ortiz' defensive value. Again, DEFENSE HAS VALUE. If all non-pitchers had to do was hit, I think we'd see some better hitters out there. Being able to do both makes Rodriguez more valuable than Ortiz.

[ORS]

OBP

Rodriguez .419

Ortiz .397

 

Rodriguez is better (in my opinion, the best category to judge a hitter's success at the plate. It is number of chances vs. amount of success, pretty good way to see how good they do at the dish.)

 

This is the only thing that is keeping Alex ahead of David on the offensive side of the conversation, so I thought I'd give it a little deeper look.

 

The difference between the two (.022) amounts to 2 extra times on base for every 100 PA or every ~22 games. This may lead one to ask where can you account for these extra non-outs? Ortiz has more HR (+1), 2B (+10), BB (+10), while Rodriquez has more 1B (+24), HBP (+14), and, strangley, they have the same amount of 3B. So, every 22 games, ARod will outproduce Ortiz by 2 singles.

 

How do those 2 singles benefit Alex's team? Statistically, they don't. Despite having more opportunities to score runs, Ortiz has scored one more run. And those 2 extra singles per 22 games have managed to score 13 fewer RISP (Ortiz 85 RBI RISP, ARod 72 RBI RISP) , with a lower probability of ocurring with a chance to score runners (Ortiz .345 BA RISP, ARod .291 BA RISP). Given the production that has resulted from that higher OBP, you will have to excuse me if I don't wet my pants with excitement.

 

All things considered, ARod's the MVP. But, I'll take Papi at the plate.

[yankeessuck013]

AROD:$25 Million ORTIZ: $4.5 Million

 

Rings: Ortiz 1, Arod 0.

HR's: Ortiz 46, Arod 45

RBI's: Ortiz 140, Arod 1

 

Slaps: A-rod: 1, Ortiz: 0

 

Throws from right field knocked down to keep teammate from being doubled off first: A-rod: 1, Ortiz: 0

 

Purple Lips: A-rod: 2, Ortiz: 0

 

haha, guys I couldn't resist

[yankeessuck013]

from boston.com

 

Why Ortiz is AL MVP

By Seth Needle, Boston

 

David Ortiz deserves the American League Most Value Player Award. Period. Yes, Alex Rodriguez has incredible numbers, there's no denying that. But, as the title states, the award is for most VALUABLE player. As I write this response, Ortiz has three game-winning home runs in the last nine days. And not just any three games, three games in the home stretch of a pennant race, two against a team that the Red Sox have fared incredibly poorly against in the 2005 season.

 

I've heard the argument plenty of times. David Ortiz does not deserve the award because is primarily a DH for the Red Sox. To me, this argument is absolutely ludicrous. Why should Ortiz's season be overlooked just because the Red Sox already have a (or even two or three) legitimate option(s) at first base?

 

In addition, defense is not an aspect highly rated when considering MVP candidates anyways. Andruw Jones has been arguably the best center fielder in the National League for the last couple years, yet his name has never been mentioned in any conversation until this year, when his power numbers are finally up. Instead, Barry Bonds has taken home the last four straight MVPs -- playing a very mediocre left field -- because his offensive numbers are mind-boggling. Ortiz himself put it perfectly -- if defense is so important, then why hasn't a gold glove winner hitting .230 ever won the award?

 

To overlook David Ortiz this season would be ridiculous. The Red Sox have not been in first place this late in a season since they last won the division in 1995. Coincidence? Hardly. Last season, his contributions were overlooked as well, mainly because he split a lot of MVP votes with Manny Ramirez. Well in case you haven't noticed, Manny has not been Manny at all this season, going through several prolonged offensive slumps. But who was providing the power during those times? Yep, you guessed it. Big Papi. The Red Sox are threatening to become the first team in a long, long time to lead the majors in runs scored for three straight seasons.

 

Just checking, but how many years has Ortiz been with the Red Sox? Oh, right -- three. Ortiz leads the AL in home runs and RBIs, and is hitting close to .300. Oh yeah, he also leads the AL in runs scored, slugging percentage, and walks. And is there a better time to be hot than in September? Ask Vladimir Guerrero, whose scorching September last year got his team into the playoffs (where who other than Papi beat them) and earned him the AL MVP. Ortiz has homered 16 times in his last 30 games. Not a bad September.

 

Again, the MVP is given to the most VALUABLE player. Take him away from the Red Sox this season and you would effectively eliminate any notion of a repeat. How valuable is David Ortiz to the Red Sox? Ask Scott Shields, or Josh Towers, or Pete Walker. Or B.J. Ryan, or Paul Quantrill, or Jarrod Washburn.

 

good read.

[HOFer51]

from boston.com

 

 

 

good read.

It's coming down to who wins the division. If the Yankees win, theres a good chance a rod will win it, and vice versa for Ortiz.

[HOFer51]

AROD:$25 Million ORTIZ: $4.5 Million

 

Rings: Ortiz 1, Arod 0.

HR's: Ortiz 46, Arod 45

RBI's: Ortiz 140, Arod 1

 

Slaps: A-rod: 1, Ortiz: 0

 

Throws from right field knocked down to keep teammate from being doubled off first: A-rod: 1, Ortiz: 0

 

Purple Lips: A-rod: 2, Ortiz: 0

 

haha, guys I couldn't resist

WOAH!!!!!!! BURN! You are WICKED cool!!!!