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Prior to 2022, MLB adopted the “Shohei Ohtani Rule” for two-players, saying any player in the game as a pitcher and a DH can be removed from one role without being removed from the other. Clearly done t keep one of the most exciting talents in the game for fans, but did they think this through? Most of the time, the player will be removed as a pitcher. In this case, he can continue as a DH and everything works out. But what happens if someone wants to pinch hit for the DH? While this rule was written with Ohtani in mind, it applies to every two way player. So while trying to think of any non-injury-related reason to pinch hit for Ohtani is a waste of time, it’s still a possibility with any other two way player. Hypothetical example - Bobby Dalbec was a very good pitcher in college and decides his best chance to stay in MLB is to add pitching to his repertoire. So say he is starting and because the opposing pitcher is left-handed, Cora also starts Dalbec at DH, batting him 6th in front of 1b Garrett Cooper. Come to, say, the sixth inning in a 0-0 game. Dalbec is coming up with men on base. It’s late enough that this could be an important at-bat, but not so late that Dalbec’s pitch count takes him off the mound anyway. With Dalbec due up, the opposing manager brings in a RHP. Cora counters by pinch-hitting for Dalbec with LHH Dominic Smith. So now Dalbec is out of the game as the DH. Smith and Cooper both bat and finish out the inning, with Smith driving in a run with a sac fly. Come next inning, per the Shohei Ohtani Rule, Dalbec can still come out and pitch. Now with a 1-0 lead, Cora wants to put Smith in at 1b for better defense. But as Smith entered the game as a DH, putting him in the field means the Sox pitcher has to bat The Sox pitcher is Dalbec. Cooper winds up bring the player removed, vacating the seventh spot in the order. But who replaces him? Smith entered the game batting sixth. Dalbec has been batting sixth all game. Obviously one of these guys has to bat 7th. It seems like an unlikely overall scenario, but with 30 teams playing 162 times each year, if we see enough two way players, it could easily become a reality with different names involved. But do the rules cover how to handle this? Or is it an oversight on a rule that was pushed through to accommodate one popular player? Hopefully the answer isn’t “if the player gets removed as DH, he also comes out as the pitcher.” That would clear up the mess, but it would be shameful if MLB allowed a manager to force a pitching change by attacking the matchup against the rival DH…

It’s all fungible. The Sox pay the money to Atlanta. If Atlanta were to turn around and trade Sale, they can still keep the money from Boston if they (and the other team involved) so choose…

Know what else seems like a logical premise? That Sale asked the Sox for an extension or, at a minimum he asked for his option to be exercised. If Sale is as competitive as you say, certainly he would want some assurance of future chances to compete. And given the ever-shrinking Boston budget, I can see why they are hesitant. They got burned with one year $10mil with Kluber, whose career has some strong parallels with Sale’s. The Braves extended him for 2 years $38mill 5 days after trading him. If the Braves are not boobs, then why are they committing 3 years $48mill to a pitcher who has thrown 150 IP in a 4 year stretch? All without ever seeing him pitch? I doubt 9 starts that averaged less than 5 IP each carried that much weight. One reason this fits is the immediacy of the extension. Maybe without one, Sale does not approve of the trade. As a 10/5 player, he does have that right. And to sign him within 5 days is a strong indication that this process started earlier. I don’t know how long it take to draw up contract and get them reviewed and accepted, but 5 days seems extremely fast. Especially when, if Sale didn’t want one, it could wait a couple more months at a minimum. I think there were multiple factors. Sox wanted to cut budget. Sale was a massive financial risk. Atlanta was willing to absorb it given their superior pitching depth. Sale possibly wanting more years. And at some point, the Sox agreeing to Grissom as part of the exchange…

Also it’s been explained to you multiple times why Sale made more sense for the Braves than the Red Sox. But if you’re not discounting the injury factor, why do you suppose the Sox made this trade?

He hasn’t been at peak level since 2018 and even then he flatlined the end of that season. His “healthy” at the end of last year was 43 IP across 9 starts. It was certainly progress, but how much faith should the Sox have put in that sample size? Also, sure he is a dedicated and competitive guy, but how does he differ on this regard from the rest of MLB?

Do you think that Sale’s recent injury history was a huge factor in his trade or not? Do you think the Sox should have counted on Sale to lead this staff or not? If not, how many IP should they have pencilled him in for?

Really? Ok looking at it, that wasn’t the post I meant to respond, too. But it still makes your response look a tad questionable. But past that. Do you think those were the options Breslow was looking at or not? That Sale has resurrected himself seems like the biggest shock to me…

Well, I wouldn’t go that far. Sale’s last 4 years have shown us that pitching is not always what defines his season…

Given Sale’s past 4 years, this trade looked like it was going to boil down to one of two options. 1. Pay Sale $27mill to not pitch or pitch very little. 2. Pay Sale $17mill to not pitch or pitch very little elsewhere in exchange for a prospect that Breslow liked. The past four years we called him “Chris Frail” and described him by saying “you can’t count on Sale.” Are you sure he was really viewed as a reliable source of pitching?

They got him after I suggested in February. So you’re actually wrong on this one…

Dude I wanted him locked up for 2-3 more years before he first 50 PA. He’s the right-handed power bat with Gold Glove defense. Bad injury issue but otherwise the younger, better Duvall, whom I also wanted back. It was NEVER about his first 50 PA…

Not true no one has written him off. Go back and re-read this thread, starting at post #3. I’ve repeatedly said this deal isn’t working out, but it did make sense at the time. In fact, that’s all I’ve ever offered on this trade since the season began. Like a lot of people, this deal looked better to me in the off-season when Sale making 8 starts was far from a sure thing. Also Sale’s past was definitely a factor. His 2024 season hadn’t happened yet. It was what they were selling, and why they had to pay. You’re so desperate to tell people they’re wrong that you just ignore it when they agree with you..

I don’t think they view it that way at all. I think Breslow clearly has a lot more faith in Grissom than you do. And it’s possible he’s not deterred by a 65 PA sample size…

Of course they’re concerned. But not to the point of writing him off, which has been done on this thread. Reportedly Breslow insisted on Grissom. That tells us he had some clear faith in him as a player. I don’t know what Breslow looks for, but Grissom’s track record prior to this session certainly provides some hope. And how concerned would people be if Sale was not looking like his 2017 self? Sale has 2.0 bWAR this season, and it seems like that has made a lot of people forget he had 2.6 bWAR total from 2020-2023. The trade isn’t working out right now, but it was still a sensible trade. What did people think Sale was worth in a trade after missing most of the past 4 seasons?

His slump coincided with coming back, absolutely. Why is this 50 PA stretch more important than the previous stretch on a 29 year old Gold Glove winning RH power bat whose only drawback is an injury history that would actually keep his years and salary in check? Oh wait. He had a bad stretch of 50 plate appearances…

Yeah. Cheering against O’Neill because he struggled coming back from colliding with Devers…

Soto’s team makes it sound like free agency is inevitable, which they’re going to say no matter what. Hal undoubtedly wants him, but even the Yankees have limits. And this guy might be lookining at 12 years $600mill. The big question is - who will the other players be? They will exist. But who? I’m counting Boston as out already…

Did you not read how that conversation was going?

It’s just like using a reliever two days in a row…

The thread title did…

Huh? Post 36 on this thread as I see it is the one dgalehouse made that starts with “Patience is a virtue…”. I assumed it was that way on yours and everyone else’s. Maybe not. I don’t know if it counts posts made by posters you may have blocked, if there are any. What post did you think post 36 was?

It sounds like they will be looking to until payroll, which in suggested earlier but was vehemently told was not the case…

None of that has anything to do with Grissom. In fact, Grissom is one guy who isn’t a 1 year player or BBB low cost project…

I get complaining about Sale/Grissom. But anyone complaining about O’Neill, whose OPS is still up over .850 and leads the team in home runs, and who came in for a cost of two journeyman AAAA pitchers, the type no organization has a shortage of, desperately needs to complain about something…

Adding Soto to that lineup and ballpark could have no other effect…