Rumor: Are The Red Sox Planning To Trade Masataka Yoshida This Offseason?

[harmony]

2 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

Is this meant for someone else? I never suggested Yoshida would net a starting pitcher or Gausman. 

The vague pronoun in "They're of comparable value" was apparently misinterpreted.

Sorry.

[Bellhorn04]

19 minutes ago, harmony said:

Why would the Blue Jays trade their top-of-rotation starter for a designated hitter?

Even in his down 2024 season, Kevin Gausman posted twice the fWAR that Masataka Yoshida has posted in his first two MLB seasons combined.

 

Hence the inclusion of Abreu.

[moonslav59]

6 hours ago, notin said:

Why wouldn’t they want a full time DH?

There is a theory that a manager can rest his players at DH on some sort of rotation. Instead of giving a player 5 days of total rest, you can DH him 10-15 times and stay in the line-up 162 games (for the good hitters, only.)

The idea of Casas and Devers sharing 1B and DH also could help both stay healthier and not miss any line-ups, at all. 81 games at DH and 81 at 1B, each.

That being said, I'm not for trading Yoshida just to add $2-3M to the winter AAV amount Brez is given. I'd rather just keep him at DH and hope he does a little better. Trading other players will bring back better returns.

The idea of trading Yoshida for a high-priced pitcher was just a theory. I came up with the Guasman example, and said I doubt TOR does it, unless they rest of the return package helps their longer term outlook (like Abreu would) AND save them some money, as we could pay down enough to tilt the money balance in their favor. There are other high priced pitchers on teams looking more toward the extended future than 2025 & 2026.

I just hope we kick all the tires on trading Yoshida, because I think our team can get much better by opening up slots for Anthony, Campbell, Mayer, while letting our poor defenders DH or move to less important positions. I seriously doubt moving Devers off 3B will happen, this winter, but it would be one big way to improve the defense, without hurting the offense or costing Brez a penny.

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Hence the inclusion of Abreu.

It could be more than Abreu, or a prospect, if they prefer that.

It's not easy finding a trade partner to balance a salary dump trade, since they would likely prefer to dump the whole salary and get young talent in return. The idea is to allow them to still save some money, and maybe get a better return by agreeing to take Yoshida plus some cash but not a big chunk as part of the package.

We all saw what including half-Price to the Betts trade did to the return. Something on those lines.

Maybe someone takes Yoshida, if we package him with Mayer, or Mayer and Abreu. One would assume a decent return player might be received.

[Larry Cook]

Hang’em Chaim got the dodgers to take price off our hands when he moved betts along. Moving yoshida is finding the right team and the right motivation! 
if hang’em Chaim, especially with his trade record, could close the betts-price trade, I think bres-slow can figure out how to move yoshida. 

[mvp 78]

9 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

You thought .700 before the season, or after he had that nice run to get over .700?

700 would be acceptable. 725 would be good. 750 would be great. Under 675 is potentially unplayable.

[moonslav59]

30 minutes ago, Larry Cook said:

Hang’em Chaim got the dodgers to take price off our hands when he moved betts along. Moving yoshida is finding the right team and the right motivation! 
if hang’em Chaim, especially with his trade record, could close the betts-price trade, I think bres-slow can figure out how to move yoshida. 

Trading Betts made dumping half of Price much easier. We are still paying the price for that trade. I'm not sure that is a good example on how we can or might dump Yoshida. I would not look for someone to take Yoshida, if they wanted Duran or Casas with him, unless we get some young and controllable pitcher who looks to be an ace.

How many rebuilding teams who would love to have Mayer, would agree to take on Yoshida or 3/4 Yoshi. I guess there might be someone, and maybe Brez needs to get real creative, My guess is, Yoshida will be our DH, next season.

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

700 would be acceptable. 725 would be good. 750 would be great. Under 675 is potentially unplayable.

I get that. My question was, what did you expect Rafaela to hit in 2024, back in March.

I would have guessed .650 to .680. 

Once he started heating up, I was thinking .700 to .725, but he slumped, badly at the end.

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

I get that. My question was, what did you expect Rafaela to hit in 2024, back in March.

I would have guessed .650 to .680. 

Once he started heating up, I was thinking .700 to .725, but he slumped, badly at the end.

700 is probably the minimum here. I can’t call myself from months and months ago so I don’t know for sure.

[Larry Cook]

24 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I get that. My question was, what did you expect Rafaela to hit in 2024, back in March.

I would have guessed .650 to .680. 

Once he started heating up, I was thinking .700 to .725, but he slumped, badly at the end.

rafaela definitely hit the rookie wall in September 

[moonslav59]

Just trying to find out, if he met or fell short of pre-season expectations.

[notin]

3 hours ago, Larry Cook said:

Hang’em Chaim got the dodgers to take price off our hands when he moved betts along. Moving yoshida is finding the right team and the right motivation! 
if hang’em Chaim, especially with his trade record, could close the betts-price trade, I think bres-slow can figure out how to move yoshida. 

Definitely the Dodgers are a good landing spot for Yoshida, what with that glaring 10 WAR hole they have at DH…

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

Definitely the Dodgers are a good landing spot for Yoshida, what with that glaring 10 WAR hole they have at DH…

Too bad, huh?

They might be one team that would take the contract, if we included someone they really want.

[notin]

10 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Too bad, huh?

They might be one team that would take the contract, if we included someone they really want.

… 

The Giants might make more sense as they traded away their DH last July and pretty  much always have a deadweight contract…

[mvp 78]

12 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Just trying to find out, if he met or fell short of pre-season expectations.

Overall, it ended up short. He had a hot stretch that was above expectations, but it was a very JBJesque season of cold start, hot streak, cold finish when you think about it.

[Bellhorn04]

14 hours ago, Larry Cook said:

rafaela definitely hit the rookie wall in September 

The entire offense hit some kind of wall in September.  

[Bellhorn04]

53 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Overall, it ended up short. He had a hot stretch that was above expectations, but it was a very JBJesque season of cold start, hot streak, cold finish when you think about it.

Ceddanne ended up with 151 Ks and 15 BBs.

His last BB was on August 9.

If he is to succeed with this approach he would be breaking a paradigm.

I don't think it's possible, personally. 

I don't think he survives as an MLB hitter. 

[mvp 78]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Ceddanne ended up with 151 Ks and 15 BBs.

His last BB was on August 9.

If he is to succeed with this approach he would be breaking a paradigm.

I don't think it's possible, personally. 

I don't think he survives as an MLB hitter. 

I think that paradigm is why his limited to a 725 ceiling. If he knew how to take a walk, he'd be a 775 hitter. He's just never going to get there. He just needs to learn to not swing at pitches 2' outside the zone. 

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I think that paradigm is why his limited to a 725 ceiling. If he knew how to take a walk, he'd be a 775 hitter. He's just never going to get there. He just needs to learn to not swing at pitches 2' outside the zone. 

Per TalkSox contributor Daniel Fox's just-posted article on the Red Sox Stats survey:

It is impossible to be a successful big-league hitter with a 46% chase rate. To put things in perspective, that number is worse than Javier Báez in all but his absolute worst season. Towards the end of the season, pitchers realized they didn’t have to throw anything near the strike zone to Rafaela, and his chase rate ballooned to over 56% in September.  

[notin]

3 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Per TalkSox contributor Daniel Fox's just-posted article on the stats survey:

It is impossible to be a successful big-league hitter with a 46% chase rate. To put things in perspective, that number is worse than Javier Báez in all but his absolute worst season. Towards the end of the season, pitchers realized they didn’t have to throw anything near the strike zone to Rafaela, and his chase rate ballooned to over 56% in September.  

Maybe this is all part of his Master Plan.  Rafaela now has a book on himself of throwing nothing but wildly outside pitches.  Next year he can just sit back and watch as pitchers throw nothing but pitches out of the zone, and he can rake in the walks.

Very clever, huh?

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, notin said:

… 

The Giants might make more sense as they traded away their DH last July and pretty  much always have a deadweight contract…

The Angels, too, but the Trout idea is just to fish-smelling.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

Overall, it ended up short. He had a hot stretch that was above expectations, but it was a very JBJesque season of cold start, hot streak, cold finish when you think about it.

I kinda feel like, for a first full season, he did about what the expectations were. Remember, JBJ started off way, way, way worse that this, and for a couple of seasons.

[Bellhorn04]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I kinda feel like, for a first full season, he did about what the expectations were. Remember, JBJ started off way, way, way worse that this, and for a couple of seasons.

OPS-wise, yes.  But his chase numbers are much worse than anyone could have imagined.  I thought he might start taking some walks, but he went in the other direction and decided to take none whatsoever!

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

OPS-wise, yes.  But his chase numbers are much worse than anyone could have imagined.  I thought he might start taking some walks, but he went in the other direction and decided to take none whatsoever!

The chase rate and K rate were off-the-charts bad- like MLB historically bad by a long mile.

I did not expect that, but his MO has always seemed to be that somehow he gets enough hits, despite swinging and missly, so often. He kinds kept that mystique going, especially for that 6-8 week stretch.

It's hard to know where he goes, from here. You know they have tried to get him to be more selective- to little avail. He may just end uo being who he is and scrape by with the minimal OPS needed to survive, or just end up as a defensive replacement with some baserunning skills. He'd be a nice 4th OF'er in 2025, but I think they give him another very long look, next year. I hope his infield days are over, but if he gets more chances there, maybe he can be a super-sub type.

[win red sox]

2 hours ago, notin said:

… 

The Giants might make more sense as they traded away their DH last July and pretty  much always have a deadweight contract…

Yoshida -23.7 for Ray -34.2 and Doval  11.5 could make sense for both teams. Conforto is a free agent and Yoshida would be an upgrade. Theres not many bats on the free agent market better the Yoshida and would also free up some cash the next 2 years for the Giants.  Ray has missed significant time the last 2 years, but in limited innings this year the velocity was good and K/9 were 12.62, could be Chris Sale situation. Doval had a down year but K/9 was 11.90 and GB 60%.  

 

[Larry Cook]

37 minutes ago, win red sox said:

Yoshida -23.7 for Ray -34.2 and Doval  11.5 could make sense for both teams. Conforto is a free agent and Yoshida would be an upgrade. Theres not many bats on the free agent market better the Yoshida and would also free up some cash the next 2 years for the Giants.  Ray has missed significant time the last 2 years, but in limited innings this year the velocity was good and K/9 were 12.62, could be Chris Sale situation. Doval had a down year but K/9 was 11.90 and GB 60%.  

 

I agree. Maybe we kick them some cash to sweeten the deal! 

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

OPS-wise, yes.  But his chase numbers are much worse than anyone could have imagined.  I thought he might start taking some walks, but he went in the other direction and decided to take none whatsoever!

I don't know why you thought he'd start taking walks when he never really did before. 

[Bellhorn04]

13 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I don't know why you thought he'd start taking walks when he never really did before. 

Just didn't know him as well as you do.  Or thought he was capable of some adjustment.

I certainly never thought we'd have a guy with a K/BB ratio twice as bad as Middlebrooks or Dalbec and believe he's capable of staying in the big leagues.  

[harmony]

5 hours ago, win red sox said:

Yoshida -23.7 for Ray -34.2 and Doval  11.5 could make sense for both teams. Conforto is a free agent and Yoshida would be an upgrade. Theres not many bats on the free agent market better the Yoshida and would also free up some cash the next 2 years for the Giants.  Ray has missed significant time the last 2 years, but in limited innings this year the velocity was good and K/9 were 12.62, could be Chris Sale situation. Doval had a down year but K/9 was 11.90 and GB 60%.  

 

This season 31-year-old Michael Conforto posted 1.3 fWAR in 130 games while 31-year-old Masataka Yoshida has posted 1.4 fWAR in 248 games over his two-year MLB career.

The San Francisco Giants are unlikely to trade Robbie Ray and their former closer for a downgrade from Conforto.

[moonslav59]

7 hours ago, win red sox said:

Yoshida -23.7 for Ray -34.2 and Doval  11.5 could make sense for both teams. Conforto is a free agent and Yoshida would be an upgrade. Theres not many bats on the free agent market better the Yoshida and would also free up some cash the next 2 years for the Giants.  Ray has missed significant time the last 2 years, but in limited innings this year the velocity was good and K/9 were 12.62, could be Chris Sale situation. Doval had a down year but K/9 was 11.90 and GB 60%.  

 

I actually thought of Ray as an option, then forgot to bring it up. Yes, this is the type of deal, I think makes more sense than just handing Yoshida plus $12-13M a year away for nothing.