June 24, 2023 Red vs White

[vegasbob]

Near Ace James Paxton vs washed up hack Lance Lynn . Should be a hit fest for Boston after the 17K's last night in a WIN, featuring two plays that made up the offense ( Hamilton/Devers), and great pitching by Bello and Pivetta/Martin/Jansen.

 

The real question of the game is whether Connor Wong going 7 games straight can survive this level of physical abuse ? Has any Boston catcher ever had to match the challenge of a straight week's worth of catching ? Anyway, hats off to Connor for stepping into the breach and handling the chore, even if he K's every time at bat , like Duvall and almost Arroyo. Duvall has no excuse . Hitting , like pitching, is as much legs as arms, and I am sure Wong's thighs and knees are very fatigued at this point. Sunday will be his biblical day of rest .

[Jasonbay44]

I imagine Caleb Hamilton has to start at least one game this weekend. We don’t want to wear down Wong in a June series against the White Sox

[moonslav59]

Lynn just turned 36. His numbers look like Kluber, this year, but I'm not sure he deserves the name "hack." He's been a fine pitcher for just about his whole career.

 

Going into this year, his career ERA was 3.52 (3.61 FIP)!

That's with 285 career GS'd

He was the model of consistency, as he only had one season over a 3.99 ERA (2018 at 4.77)

 

Until this year, he appeared to be aging well. (Age 32-35 seasons '19-'22)

41-27 3.42 ERA (3.48 FIP) which was better than his age 24-31 seasons, combined.

 

Let's hope he doesn't decide to regain his magic, today!

 

 

[moonslav59]

I imagine Caleb Hamilton has to start at least one game this weekend. We don’t want to wear down Wong in a June series against the White Sox

 

Is Crawford starting tomorrow? My guess is they match Hamilton with him, but with Monday off, maybe they go with 8 games in 8 days.

 

They might sub in Hamilton during a game, if it gets out of hand, but with no 3rd catcher, that has its risks.

[Maxbialystock]

Near Ace James Paxton vs washed up hack Lance Lynn . Should be a hit fest for Boston after the 17K's last night in a WIN, featuring two plays that made up the offense ( Hamilton/Devers), and great pitching by Bello and Pivetta/Martin/Jansen.

 

The real question of the game is whether Connor Wong going 7 games straight can survive this level of physical abuse ? Has any Boston catcher ever had to match the challenge of a straight week's worth of catching ? Anyway, hats off to Connor for stepping into the breach and handling the chore, even if he K's every time at bat , like Duvall and almost Arroyo. Duvall has no excuse . Hitting , like pitching, is as much legs as arms, and I am sure Wong's thighs and knees are very fatigued at this point. Sunday will be his biblical day of rest .

 

Well said. I was definitely over the top defending Wong.

[moonslav59]

Well said. I was definitely over the top defending Wong.

 

It was worth pointing out, but may I ask who you are defending Wong against?

 

I think we all greatly appreciate his amazing growth as a catcher.

 

The kid was apparently meant to move off catching early in his career in the minors.

 

He has top speed for a catcher and even vs most ML'ers.

 

His bat has emerged as a plus for a catcher. His 20 XBHs in 39 hits and 168 ABs has been a blessing.

 

Somebody complained about the 4 Ks, last night. For a game thread, it was pretty tame.

 

I think your hard work has paid off: we all like Wong!

 

If loving Wong is Wrong: I don't wanna to be right!

 

[vegasbob]

Max, I rarely know when you are serious and I am sure vice versa . To be clear, Wong having to catch at the MLB level for a week straight is a challenge and very wearying . Everything from his hand to his legs have got to be aching . Swinging the bat requires quick twitch muscle reaction which is absent when muscles are tired, not to mention the build-up of lactic acid. So let's value Wong for his catching, strong arm throws to 2B, and baserunning speed .

 

A throw-in of sorts in the infamous Mookie trade, Connor has become a valid fix at a key position in Bloom's evolving , younger, cost efficient roster construction. I think we are ahead of the game vs if they had kept Vazquez.

 

Get a win today, thereby take the series and look for a sweep tomorrow with Connor Wong resting on his....laurels

[vegasbob]

Lynn just turned 36. His numbers look like Kluber, this year, but I'm not sure he deserves the name "hack." He's been a fine pitcher for just about his whole career.

 

Going into this year, his career ERA was 3.52 (3.61 FIP)!

That's with 285 career GS'd

He was the model of consistency, as he only had one season over a 3.99 ERA (2018 at 4.77)

 

Until this year, he appeared to be aging well. (Age 32-35 seasons '19-'22)

41-27 3.42 ERA (3.48 FIP) which was better than his age 24-31 seasons, combined.

 

Let's hope he doesn't decide to regain his magic, today!

 

 

 

Please don't take game thread trash talk too seriously , although I know you are a serious guy. Check back after 2 innings and if the Sox are 0-6 with 4 k's, the misnomer 'hack" will be with drawn.

 

You can't catch a fish without throwing out some bait !

[moonslav59]

Please don't take game thread trash talk too seriously , although I know you are a serious guy. Check back after 2 innings and if the Sox are 0-6 with 4 k's, the misnomer 'hack" will be with drawn.

 

You can't catch a fish without throwing out some bait !

 

I'm not trying to say Lynn is going to throw a gem. His chances at that may be as high as Kluber pitching one.

 

He's been horrible, this year. I hope we bring his ERA to over 7.00, today.

 

I just think the word "hack" implies a longer term sucktitudeness.

[Maxbialystock]

It would be terrific to win again today to clinch the series. Paxton is the guy to do it, and I do think Wong behind the plate is a plus. 7 games in 7 days is a load for a catcher, but he strikes me as a good athlete in top shape--and at the optimal age of 27. Plus I think Cora is super-sensitive to overworking anyone.

 

I like moonslav's caution that Lynn could surprise us even though his numbers this year are Kubleresque.

 

I like Duran and Casas back in the lineup and still wonder why they were excluded last night. And, since I'm in a criticizing mood, I personally would sit Duvall today and play Refsnyder, who hit the ball hard at least twice last night and didn't K on a night when the team K'd 17 freaking times. Duvall accounted for 4 K's.

[Maxbialystock]

Max, I rarely know when you are serious and I am sure vice versa . To be clear, Wong having to catch at the MLB level for a week straight is a challenge and very wearying . Everything from his hand to his legs have got to be aching . Swinging the bat requires quick twitch muscle reaction which is absent when muscles are tired, not to mention the build-up of lactic acid. So let's value Wong for his catching, strong arm throws to 2B, and baserunning speed .

 

A throw-in of sorts in the infamous Mookie trade, Connor has become a valid fix at a key position in Bloom's evolving , younger, cost efficient roster construction. I think we are ahead of the game vs if they had kept Vazquez.

 

Get a win today, thereby take the series and look for a sweep tomorrow with Connor Wong resting on his....laurels

 

I thought Mookie was just too expensive and still feel that way. So I was fine with losing him even though he was great, great fun to watch. To get Dugo and Wong in addition is just astounding.

 

I still think that home to 2B to 1B double play 4 days ago was beyond good. On the replay I was able to confirm that going to 3b would have been a mistake because Devers was still trying to get there whereas Kike was right at 2B. So wild applause for Wong immediately seeing what was the best play and then beginning it with a daring throw all the way to 2B. Plus I'm pissed at McGuire for injuring himself swinging a freaking bat.

[moonslav59]

 

I still think that home to 2B to 1B double play 4 days ago was beyond good. On the replay I was able to confirm that going to 3b would have been a mistake because Devers was still trying to get there whereas Kike was right at 2B. So wild applause for Wong immediately seeing what was the best play and then beginning it with a daring throw all the way to 2B. .

 

Since Kike just barely got the guy out at 1B, going to 3rd would have been just one out, at best. No way, Devers gets the guy out at 1B.

 

It was a great play by Wong and a pretty good one by Kike.

[Maxbialystock]

A belated shoutout to mvp 78 for that amazing, essential, timely 6 straight wins. We're in June and it feels like freaking September.

 

I mean the games are that exciting. Like last night with a seemingly disastrous 17 K's by the good guys, who however also played good D, held the Chisox to 1 run, absolutely stole 1 run, and got that magnificent 2-run dinger from Devers.

[Maxbialystock]

Since Kike just barely got the guy out at 1B, going to 3rd would have been just one out, at best. No way, Devers gets the guy out at 1B.

 

It was a great play by Wong and a pretty good one by Kike.

 

Agree on all. My point is that most catchers would have instinctively gone after the lead runner, but Wong wanted two--and was right. And, yes, great grab by Kike and then a great throw for the DP. What was hilarious was that, after it was over, Crawford had to say, "hey that was the third out, wasn't it?"

[vegasbob]

I thought Mookie was just too expensive and still feel that way. So I was fine with losing him even though he was great, great fun to watch. To get Dugo and Wong in addition is just astounding.

 

I still think that home to 2B to 1B double play 4 days ago was beyond good. On the replay I was able to confirm that going to 3b would have been a mistake because Devers was still trying to get there whereas Kike was right at 2B. So wild applause for Wong immediately seeing what was the best play and then beginning it with a daring throw all the way to 2B. Plus I'm pissed at McGuire for injuring himself swinging a freaking bat.

 

Note that Yu Chang also broke his hamate on an exaggerated swing and miss that has now led to missing the rest of the season. I say that because I think Hamilton's very early skill set showing would favor Ham over Yu's goose eggs, for the utility infielder position .

[vegasbob]

From the echo chamber, that DP started by Wong was the best possible choice and outcome. I noted in that thread that his reaction to the ball dribbled in front of the plate was extremely quick.

 

Recall all the early analytic work on McGuire , Wong in comparison to Vaz with many splits and pitcher lists . I think the subsequent evidence is clear that Wong is the superior catching talent . We need to see if C Hamilton can show anything positive , but McGuire certainly could be on the trade block in a deal that includes another back up catcher. McGuire has gone from a positive bat/ weak arm catcher to being unable to hit, plus the IL stint . He has a negative bWAR and 80 OPS+.

[illinoisredsox]

Near Ace James Paxton vs washed up hack Lance Lynn . Should be a hit fest for Boston after the 17K's last night in a WIN, featuring two plays that made up the offense ( Hamilton/Devers), and great pitching by Bello and Pivetta/Martin/Jansen.

 

The real question of the game is whether Connor Wong going 7 games straight can survive this level of physical abuse ? Has any Boston catcher ever had to match the challenge of a straight week's worth of catching ? Anyway, hats off to Connor for stepping into the breach and handling the chore, even if he K's every time at bat , like Duvall and almost Arroyo. Duvall has no excuse . Hitting , like pitching, is as much legs as arms, and I am sure Wong's thighs and knees are very fatigued at this point. Sunday will be his biblical day of rest .

 

Just to throw a little perspective though, “washed up hack” Lynn struck out 16 Mariners over 7 innings last Sunday.

[vegasbob]

Just to throw a little perspective though, “washed up hack” Lynn struck out 16 Mariners over 7 innings last Sunday.

 

Sox go out on 9 pitches in the first . But no K's !

[illinoisredsox]

Great play by Berger; took away a likely triple from Duran.

[moonslav59]

From the echo chamber, that DP started by Wong was the best possible choice and outcome. I noted in that thread that his reaction to the ball dribbled in front of the plate was extremely quick.

 

Recall all the early analytic work on McGuire , Wong in comparison to Vaz with many splits and pitcher lists . I think the subsequent evidence is clear that Wong is the superior catching talent . We need to see if C Hamilton can show anything positive , but McGuire certainly could be on the trade block in a deal that includes another back up catcher. McGuire has gone from a positive bat/ weak arm catcher to being unable to hit, plus the IL stint . He has a negative bWAR and 80 OPS+.

 

I doubt we give up on McGuire, so quickly. He has several years of team control, and Hickey is a couple years away.

 

I think McGuire has been playing hurt, some. He missed some starts, I think would have been his, earlier this year.

 

On the numbers with pitchers, one has to realize who each has caught way more than the other and adjust, accordingly.

 

Also, the head to head match-ups are pretty close to even:

 

(Note: McGuire has caught about 60% of all PAs Against- a 3:2 ratio)

 

OPS Against with each catcher:

 

** Note the unbalanced PAs against

 

Houck

.692 Wong (263 PAs) **

.727 McGuire (22)

 

Sale

.633 Wong (185) **

1.061 McGuire (64 mostly early in the season)

 

Bello (I'm counting this even)

.695 Wong (142)

.696 McGuire (142)

 

Paxton

.631 Wong (130) **

.683 McGuire (26)

 

Whitlock

.810 Wong (110)

.714 McGuire (62)

 

Crawford

.815 Wong (109)

.472 McGuire (78)

 

Winckowski

.656 Wong (110)

.595 McGuire (62)

 

Pivetta

.646 Wong (126)

.904 McGuire (124)

 

Kluber

.918 Wong (51)

.982 McGuire (206)**

_________________

 

Jansen

.722 Wong (79)

.328 McGuire (31)

 

Martin

.581 Wong (66)

.401 McGuire (26)

 

When not counting massive unbalanced sample size, McGuire actually has done better or the same with more pitchers than Wong, especially the younger ones (Bello, Crawford and Wink). McGuire 5-1

 

If you count the unbalanced samples: Wong 5- McGuire 5

 

(If Sale and Kulber don't pitch the rest of the season, it's 5-3 McGuire.)

 

This is not meant to disparage Wong. He's done a great job behind the plate. There was an expected learning curve, early in the season, as we added so many new pitchers, and Wong and McGuire had very little history with any pitchers on the staff.

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by moonslav59

[wyo-sox]

Nice bottom of the 1st. Just getting here..

[vegasbob]

Got the lead on Devers hit and hustle. Let's shut the White Sox out and call it a win.

[wyo-sox]

1-0.... Nice way to start a game.... we are ahead, not playing from behind. I prefer this type of start- feels more sustainable than the games we score 15 runs.

[illinoisredsox]

Sox go out on 9 pitches in the first . But no K's !

 

Here’s an odd K stat for you:

 

Last night was the 7th time this year White Sox pitchers have struck out at least 14 hitters in a game. They are 0-7 in those games.

 

(Courtesy of the White Sox TV crew)

[Maxbialystock]

Note that Yu Chang also broke his hamate on an exaggerated swing and miss that has now led to missing the rest of the season. I say that because I think Hamilton's very early skill set showing would favor Ham over Yu's goose eggs, for the utility infielder position .

 

Agree. Chang took himself out. And yesterday Hamilton worked some magic.

[Maxbialystock]

I doubt we give up on McGuire, so quickly. He has several years of team control, and Hickey is a couple years away.

 

I think McGuire has been playing hurt, some. He missed some starts, I think would have been his, earlier this year.

 

On the numbers with pitchers, one has to realize who each has caught way more than the other and adjust, accordingly.

 

Also, the head to head match-ups are pretty close to even:

 

(Note: McGuire has caught about 60% of all PAs Against- a 3:2 ratio)

 

OPS Against with each catcher:

 

** Note the unbalanced PAs against

 

Houck

.692 Wong (263 PAs) **

.727 McGuire (22)

 

Sale

.633 Wong (185) **

1.061 McGuire (64 mostly early in the season)

 

Bello (I'm counting this even)

.695 Wong (142)

.696 McGuire (142)

 

Paxton

.631 Wong (130) **

.683 McGuire (26)

 

Whitlock

.810 Wong (110)

.714 McGuire (62)

 

Crawford

.815 Wong (109)

.472 McGuire (78)

 

Winckowski

.656 Wong (110)

.595 McGuire (62)

 

Pivetta

.646 Wong (126)

.904 McGuire (124)

 

Kluber

.918 Wong (51)

.982 McGuire (206)**

_________________

 

Jansen

.722 Wong (79)

.328 McGuire (31)

 

Martin

.581 Wong (66)

.401 McGuire (26)

 

When not counting massive unbalanced sample size, McGuire actually has done better or the same with more pitchers than Wong, especially the younger ones (Bello, Crawford and Wink). McGuire 5-1

 

If you count the unbalanced samples: Wong 5- McGuire 5

 

(If Sale and Kulber don't pitch the rest of the season, it's 5-3 McGuire.)

 

This is not meant to disparage Wong. He's done a great job behind the plate. There was an expected learning curve, early in the season, as we added so many new pitchers, and Wong and McGuire had very little history with any pitchers on the staff.

 

 

 

 

Wong >>McGuire, but I agree McGuire is a good catcher worth keeping.

 

Meanwhile, Paxton just gave up dinger. Score 1-1 after two. We are already off script.

[Maxbialystock]

OK. Cora and Wong have been reading my stuff and taken it to heart. Wong K's in 3 pitches!

[Maxbialystock]

Lynn > Paxton, so far.

[illinoisredsox]

Lynn > Paxton, so far.

 

Huh?

 

Paxton. 3IP, 2H, 1R, 0BB, 3K

Lynn. 3IP, 2H, 1R, 0BB, 2K

 

Looks pretty even to me

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Would ya rather have a hot dog or a burger on your team?