9/09 SOX @ O's 7:05PM ET

[Maxbialystock]

Or maybe not put in a 7 ERA sack of s*** with bases loaded with a fully rested bullpen?

 

Fully rested bullpen doesn't mean that much when it stinks to high heaven and means still less when whoever you send in has a freaking 2 run lead with the bases loaded and one out.

 

It's basically Schreiber or nobody because he's the only Sox reliever who has gone in with the bases loaded and gotten 3 outs with no runs scored. But he did that against the loser Rangers. These Orioles are pretty decent, especially at Camden Yards where they are 41-28. And the last time Schreiber faced the Orioles he gave up 2 runs while getting no one out.

 

Or put it this way. By any reasonable measure this was a good game for the Sox pitching. The lineup, not so good. 9 hits plus free passes, but yet again hit with RISP disease: 1 for freaking 10, Devers especially.

[d-money]

Based on how the game was managed tonight they clearly don't care about winning games anymore this season.

 

I do especially if we can help the rays knock the Yankees out of first place lol.

[Old Red]

The players are not giving themselves the best chance to win. All the big guns are in the lineup and they can't hit spit. Two freaking runs in 8 freaking innings. The pitching has given up just 3 runs despite Bello, who had an excellent start, leaving with the bases full and 1 out in the 6th. All 3 of those runners scored and are charged to Bello. None of that is Bello's fault of course. Nor is it Ort's.

No it is not Ort’s fault he was brought into the game, or on the team for that matter that is on Cora, and Bloom, but it is Ort’s fault that he just plain sucks.

[moonslav59]

It's never the players fault, anymore.

[Old Red]

It's never the players fault, anymore.

 

Not true at all. Duran had trouble catching fly balls, but yet he stayed in the lineup when he should have been down in the instructional league learning how to do so. Franchy Strange Glove wasn’t a 1B, but yet he kept being put out there. JD hitting, and power has sucked for sometime now, and that is all on him, and so is it all on Raffy for what you want to call whatever he’s going through. Bogey is top 5 in hitting , and top 5 in hits in all of MLB, which doesn’t mean much to some, but it is an a accomplishment. Power numbers are down, and he went through long stretches of not doing much, and that is on him too.

[Jasonbay44]

Fully rested bullpen doesn't mean that much when it stinks to high heaven and means still less when whoever you send in has a freaking 2 run lead with the bases loaded and one out.

 

It's basically Schreiber or nobody because he's the only Sox reliever who has gone in with the bases loaded and gotten 3 outs with no runs scored. But he did that against the loser Rangers. These Orioles are pretty decent, especially at Camden Yards where they are 41-28. And the last time Schreiber faced the Orioles he gave up 2 runs while getting no one out.

 

Or put it this way. By any reasonable measure this was a good game for the Sox pitching. The lineup, not so good. 9 hits plus free passes, but yet again hit with RISP disease: 1 for freaking 10, Devers especially.

 

So basically you still couldn’t give me a logical reason for putting in one of our worst relievers with bases loaded in a must win game and changed the subject and listed a bunch of other unrelated things. Okay, cool.

 

 

Schrieber and Whitlock were both well rested and available. The fact Cora decided Kaleb Ort was his best option is a white flag. He is completely useless and likely won’t be in MLB next year.

 

I get you have unconditional love for Cora, but there is no defense for that. Who was his 2nd option? Brasier?

[Jasonbay44]

It's never the players fault, anymore.

 

Ort sucks. But why would he even be put into that game? Like seriously, no one can answer why the hell he’d be the choice to be put into the game, he’s AAAA fodder and has a near 7 ERA and it’s not like he has potential. He’s 30.

[Old Red]

So basically you still couldn’t give me a logical reason for putting in one of our worst relievers with bases loaded in a must win game and changed the subject and listed a bunch of other unrelated things. Okay, cool.

 

 

Schrieber and Whitlock were both well rested and available. The fact Cora decided Kaleb Ort was his best option is a white flag. He is completely useless and likely won’t be in MLB next year.

 

I get you have unconditional love for Cora, but there is no defense for that. Who was his 2nd option? Brasier?

Whitlock had 2 bad outings in a row, but he hasn’t pitched for a week now. You are 100% right that Ort should not have been in that game in that situation, and only Cora knows why it was done.

[Jasonbay44]

Whitlock had 2 bad outings in a row, but he hasn’t pitched for a week now. You are 100% right that Ort should not have been in that game in that situation, and only Cora knows why it was done.

 

Even with Whitlock not available, it’s still inexcusable move if you are attempting to win a game. Ort and Brasier are two of worst relievers in baseball and should never see high leverage situations… yet it keeps happening

[Old Red]

Even with Whitlock not available, it’s still inexcusable move if you are attempting to win a game. Ort and Brasier are two of worst relievers in baseball and should never see high leverage situations… yet it keeps happening

 

That’s why the players to me don’t deserve as much blame as Cora, and Bloom who keep them on the team, and keep playing them.

[moonslav59]

Not true at all. Duran had trouble catching fly balls, but yet he stayed in the lineup when he should have been down in the instructional league learning how to do so. Franchy Strange Glove wasn’t a 1B, but yet he kept being put out there. JD hitting, and power has sucked for sometime now, and that is all on him, and so is it all on Raffy for what you want to call whatever he’s going through. Bogey is top 5 in hitting , and top 5 in hits in all of MLB, which doesn’t mean much to some, but it is an a accomplishment. Power numbers are down, and he went through long stretches of not doing much, and that is on him too.

 

When just about ever single player from the 2021 team declined, some by a ton, I'm thinking the players are mostly to blame.

 

I realize you can't fire the whole team, so the age old tradition is to blame the manager for not motivating or preparing the team and the GM for not being a fortuneteller.

 

Sure, on the game threads, we hear this guy sucks and that guy sucks, and "no way should this guy still be on the team," but just about evert single carry-over player has let the team down, including Bogey, JD, Devers, Nate and all the "team leaders."

 

Of course, Cora and Bloom share in the blame, but Bloom has other priorities besides "win now." To some extent, managers need to look at the whole 162 games not just go all out to win every game, but not to the extreme Cora seems to take it.

 

On the specifics you mentioned:

 

Duran was not this bad on D in AAA. I think most GMs give call-ups time to adjust to the pressure and new level. Did he give Duran too long a look? In hindsight, the answer is easy.

 

On Dalbec, many felt he should have been demoted, last season, but look what happened. Then, this year's flip flop. Many wanted him demoted again, and Cora tried Cordero at a new position to fill the Dalbec benching with what he felt was the best chance to improve our 1B production. Cordero was showing signing of hitting better than almost anyone but our big 3. I'm sure he expected a learning curve on defense, and he got one much worse than any of us wished. Did he stick with him, too long? It looks like it.

 

I'm not one to say he should have made a late May trade, unless I know for sure, what 1Bman any team was offering, but Bloom did not make a trade, so it's his fault not Dalbec's, not Cordero's, not Arroyo's? I just can't bring myself to see it that way, and it doesn't concern me that I may be in the vast minority among fellow Sox fans. Show me a trade that was offered in late May through June, and I'll throw blame or laugh at it.

 

On Bloom, I would have moved JD down to 6th and then maybe 7th in the line-up, but some would view that as a slap in the face of a vet. Plus, with so many injuries, it's not like we had much better options.

 

With Bogey's power sapped, and his BA and OBP still high, I might have tried leading him off, but oh, don't go there! Many posters swear players are creatures of habit and hate being jerked around in the line-up, and we don't want to upset an established vet and team leader.

 

In many way, a manager is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Brining in Ort looked, to me, like a horrible call, and hindsight proves it was. I'm sure he had his reasons, but the end result matters more than anything to most. I never let a call a disagree with here and there bring me to the point of calling for a manager's firing. I try to look at the whole picture (not that you and others are not,) but to me, the whole picture is not just looking at the team record, ranking and total budget. We all see the same things differently, and I'm not saying my view is superior, but I do think JH looks beyond just the fact that we are spending a ton and sucking on the field, currently and choosing to blame Bloom & Cora for most of that.

[moonslav59]

That’s why the players to me don’t deserve as much blame as Cora, and Bloom who keep them on the team, and keep playing them.

 

Cora had nobody better to play.

 

Bloom was not given a wide open budget, and IMO, the Story signing was a reactive, last minute panic and temporary opening of the budget.

 

The injuries and near total vet declines were something no manager or GM could overcome with a restricted budget.

 

25 players decline or get hurt and that has to be Bloom and Cora's fault?

[dgalehouse]

After the game , Cora was asked why he used Ort in that situation. He answered, " These kids have to learn and show us what they can do." Maybe Alex should check the birth certificates. Ort is not a kid any more. He is older than Bello , Schreiber and Whitlock.

[Maxbialystock]

No it is not Ort’s fault he was brought into the game, or on the team for that matter that is on Cora, and Bloom, but it is Ort’s fault that he just plain sucks.

 

The lineup was about as good as the Sox have fielded this year. They had 9 hits, including a dinger and 2 doubles, and 4 free passes. But they were 1 for 10 with RISP and of course had two GIDP's. Thus did they score 2 measly runs.

 

Cora started a promising rookie, Bello, who pitched 5 shutout innings and who started the 6th with a K. Then the roof fell in and suddenly the bases were loaded on a grounder single and 2 walks. All 3 of them scored. Ort had a WP and gave up a single and a walk. He was charged with zero runs while getting 2 outs.

 

The Orioles finished the game with 3 runs--by any measure a well-pitched game by the Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

After the game , Cora was asked why he used Ort in that situation. He answered, " These kids have to learn and show us what they can do." Maybe Alex should check the birth certificates. Ort is not a kid any more. He is older than Bello , Schreiber and Whitlock.

 

How about "these guys with less major league experience", then?

[Old Red]

Cora had nobody better to play.

 

Bloom was not given a wide open budget, and IMO, the Story signing was a reactive, last minute panic and temporary opening of the budget.

 

The injuries and near total vet declines were something no manager or GM could overcome with a restricted budget.

 

25 players decline or get hurt and that has to be Bloom and Cora's fault?

 

If you can’t find better players than Duran, or Franchy then maybe the Sox better find someone who can. Yes it’s well documented many times on here about declining veterans, and injuries, but still doesn’t take away from what Bloom did, and didn’t do such as JBJ for Renfroe, and no plan at all for the backend of the BP to start the season. Also the 1B fiasco that became apparent, and Bloom did nothing until the trade deadline when Hosmer was given to him. You don’t wait to see what was offered you go out, and offer yourself. As it looks now it might not have made a difference, but you didn’t know that at the time. Once again declines, and injuries do not change the ineptness of Bloom this season.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Cora's explanation for using Ort there makes sense. Now if we were 1 game out of a playoff spot and not 10, the same answer wouldn't make sense.

[Old Red]

I think Cora's explanation for using Ort there makes sense. Now if we were 1 game out of a playoff spot and not 10, the same answer wouldn't make sense.

 

There should be nothing to be found out about Ort that isn’t known already. If there is then Houston we have a bigger problem evaluating talent then we thought.

[Bellhorn04]

There should be nothing to be found out about Ort that isn’t known already. If there is then Houston we have a bigger problem evaluating talent then we thought.

 

He's pitched 21 major league innings.

 

In the 4 outings before last night he didn't give up any runs.

[Old Red]

He's pitched 21 major league innings.

 

In the 4 outings before last night he didn't give up any runs.

 

In the words of 700 he’s a ham, and egger. Look if you think bringing in Ort in that situation was the right move last night then we just disagree.

[Bellhorn04]

In the words of 700 he’s a ham, and egger. Look if you think bringing in Ort in that situation was the right move last night then we just disagree.

 

It was the 6th inning. I guess you're saying we should have used a Relief Ace.

[Bellhorn04]

If Cora was being brutally honest he would have said "Look, we're not making the playoffs, and we're trying to find out if this guy is worth keeping for next year."

[a700hitter]

Cora sux! This is how one MANAGES to lose a game.

Cora can win with a healthy Cris Sale, David Price, Eovaldi, Eduardo Rodriguez, and Rick Porello with a shutdown closer getting 42 saves and a middle of the lineup with Mookie, Devers, Bogey And JD in his prime. And just a little bit of cheating. Winning with those guys was nothing short of genius.

 

Cora should be fired. He’s nothing special.

[Old Red]

It was the 6th inning. I guess you're saying we should have used a Relief Ace.

 

No I’m saying that Ort to me was not the best option. That would have been a situation for a good long man, or setup man.

[moonslav59]

If Cora was being brutally honest he would have said "Look, we're not making the playoffs, and we're trying to find out if this guy is worth keeping for next year."

 

It should not be rocket science.

 

When a season is lost, you play bubble players to get a better feel on who you decide to keep or let go. You play ML ready prospects to get a better feel on what you might count ont hem for, next year: starter, back-up or minor league depth (or trade.)

 

Getting an answer, now, is better than trying them out during next year's playoff run.

 

One of the major problems with winning teams and bringing up borderline prospec ts is, you can't afford to give them a long enough look to determine anything.

 

Had Kike been healthy and we were winning, we might still have hopes that Duran could be a future FT'er, because he would have never shown us that he is not (or looks like he needs more work.)

[Old Red]

It should not be rocket science.

 

When a season is lost, you play bubble players to get a better feel on who you decide to keep or let go. You play ML ready prospects to get a better feel on what you might count ont hem for, next year: starter, back-up or minor league depth (or trade.)

 

Getting an answer, now, is better than trying them out during next year's playoff run.

 

One of the major problems with winning teams and bringing up borderline prospec ts is, you can't afford to give them a long enough look to determine anything.

 

Had Kike been healthy and we were winning, we might still have hopes that Duran could be a future FT'er, because he would have never shown us that he is not (or looks like he needs more work.)

Once again are you saying paying customers, which you are not should be watching so called bubble players when they go to Fenway? Like I said earlier people at the games in person only care about that moment in time, and not if Ort will make the team next year. Now that is not Rocket science.

[moonslav59]

Once again are you saying paying customers, which you are not should be watching so called bubble players when they go to Fenway? Like I said earlier people at the games in person only care about that moment in time, and not if Ort will make the team next year. Now that is not Rocket science.

 

No, I specifically said I am in the vast minority.

 

I have also said I am a paying customer, but you choose to not believe me- again, your choice.

 

Not all people at the game think the same way, and I know most just want to see a good game and hopefully a win. They don't want to see Ort. I'd rather see Schreiber, too. I'm not disagreeing with the facts.

 

However, I also can think about more than one thing: my instant gratification of my senses. I can think about sometimes having to sacrifice the here and now for a better future, and when sometimes, experiencing the here and now can or should take the front seat. It's a constant trade off and weighing of the benefits of doing one thing over another.

 

It seems like our society has moved more and more towards instant gratification and getting what's mine and NOW. Companies rarely look beyond 3 years. It's all about maximizing profits for the stock holders, now.

 

I plan on being alive for a few more decades, and I would prefer a ring or a strong run at one in 2-3 years than 84 wins this season, instead of 72. I don't expect others to think like I do. I don't really even want everyone to think like me. I don't pretend to think my way is the right or better way to think. IMO, I do think JH and Bloom are looking more to the future than most fans do, but less than the way I do, but that's just my opinion.

 

It seems like many are unhappy with the choices made, but some for the opposite reasons. Isn't life wonderfully complex?

[dgalehouse]

Cora can win with a healthy Cris Sale, David Price, Eovaldi, Eduardo Rodriguez, and Rick Porello with a shutdown closer getting 42 saves and a middle of the lineup with Mookie, Devers, Bogey And JD in his prime. And just a little bit of cheating. Winning with those guys was nothing short of genius.

 

Cora should be fired. He’s nothing special.

 

When Cora won with those players, he was called " the greatest manager in Sox history." And when the Sox finished tied for second last year (8 games out of first}, he was praised again. And Bloom was lauded. Apparently, credit is given for success, but no blame is issued for failure. That's how it is with some of our more biased observers.

[Old Red]

No, I specifically said I am in the vast minority.

 

I have also said I am a paying customer, but you choose to not believe me- again, your choice.

 

Not all people at the game think the same way, and I know most just want to see a good game and hopefully a win. They don't want to see Ort. I'd rather see Schreiber, too. I'm not disagreeing with the facts.

 

However, I also can think about more than one thing: my instant gratification of my senses. I can think about sometimes having to sacrifice the here and now for a better future, and when sometimes, experiencing the here and now can or should take the front seat. It's a constant trade off and weighing of the benefits of doing one thing over another.

 

It seems like our society has moved more and more towards instant gratification and getting what's mine and NOW. Companies rarely look beyond 3 years. It's all about maximizing profits for the stock holders, now.

 

I plan on being alive for a few more decades, and I would prefer a ring or a strong run at one in 2-3 years than 84 wins this season, instead of 72. I don't expect others to think like I do. I don't really even want everyone to think like me. I don't pretend to think my way is the right or better way to think. IMO, I do think JH and Bloom are looking more to the future than most fans do, but less than the way I do, but that's just my opinion.

 

It seems like many are unhappy with the choices made, but some for the opposite reasons. Isn't life wonderfully complex?

 

Paying customer at Fenway? We just have different philosophies. To me a team like the Red Sox with a $200M payroll should not have to take any years off to rebuild, or anything else you want to call it to possibly get better 2, or 3 years from now. They don’t have to be a champion, but at least be competitive every year, and if you have people in charge who know what they are doing you shouldn’t have to go though a season like this, or other last place finishes that have gone along with championships. Taking a year off does not guarantee nothing.

[moonslav59]

Paying customer at Fenway? We just have different philosophies. To me a team like the Red Sox with a $200M payroll should not have to take any years off to rebuild, or anything else you want to call it to possibly get better 2, or 3 years from now. They don’t have to be a champion, but at least be competitive every year, and if you have people in charge who know what they are doing you shouldn’t have to go though a season like this, or other last place finishes that have gone along with championships. Taking a year off does not guarantee nothing.

 

I ahve gone to many games at Fenway. Not this year, but almost every year. I also pay for Sox TV, which some goes into JH's wallet.

 

I get the $200M payroll should compete point, and they should compete, even if there is a significant amount of inherited deadwood. I agree, but when it looks like an off year, I don't think clinging to a sliver of hope is helpful to the sustainability of winning every year. I think we tried to put together a winning and exciting team in 2022, and that's all I expect. There are many other teams doing the same thing, and we can't win every year, unless we spend like the Dodgers (not happening) or build a system like the Rays (which many here seem to abhor, because they think you have to act like a small market team every year.)

 

Of course, a fire sale guarantees nothing, but it's the Gms job to further improve your chances, when he can and not waste resources on a false hope season like thsi was in July. Again, that's my minority opinion.

 

I don't blame fans for wanting to see a team trying to win, when they fork over hundreds of dollars to go to a game, but if we keep holding onto resources and let them expire without anything to show for them, it's bad for establishing a winning system, IMO, of course.